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Thread: Dark Chaos Shuffle
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2012-11-14, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Dark Chaos Shuffle
so, i was reading in another thread about what can and can't be traded out by these spells.
class based armor proficiencies are in:
Originally Posted by PHB pg. 89
elven martial weapon proficiency is in. it specifically is called out as bonus feats.
and, of course, anything that gives you bonus feats is in. legacy weapon + DCFS seems like infinite feats.
so, i have a question. what would you do with an elf VOP fighter 20 with 2 flaws that had a legacy item? just for clarity, lets say this elf retrained his flaw feats to be sacred vow and vow of poverty so there's no conflict with the legacy item.
7 feats from levels. 4 from elf, 2 from flaws, 11 from VOP, 11 from fighter, 3 from legacy item. what do you do with 38 feats?78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2012-11-14, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Bet them all on black!
Blarg...
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2012-11-14, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Skip all of that, cast Heroics, Shuffle that to a different feat, when Heroics ends the feat it granted is already gone so nothing is lost. The only limit to the number of feats you get is the minor XP cost of the Shuffle.
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2012-11-14, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Make sure you take dodge as your first shuffled feat, and designate the DM as your opponent. Beware if he has Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, as books will be heading in your direction.
Please only save that for the cheesiest of games.
Are we stuck with 38 feats as a fighter? Fighter 20 isn't much to work with. Even with 38 feats, still not equal to, say, a warblade, much less almost any caster.Blank 3.5 Character Creator Iron Chef Style Tables (in Google Sheets)
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2012-11-14, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2012-11-14, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
2 levels of monk gets 2 more feats (lose 1 fighter feat, gain 3 feats from monk).
40
i forgot to count armor and shield proficiencies, which is 5 more feats.
45
a 3 level dip in ranger after shuffling armor gets 4 more feats (lose another fighter bonus, gain track, endurance, combat style, light armor proficiency, and shield proficiency from ranger)
4978% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.
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2012-11-14, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.My Homebrew: found here.
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2012-11-14, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Not this again...
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2012-11-14, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Point 1 is valid, point 2 I'm not going to touch. As to point 3: a character with a Weapon of Legacy can undergo rituals to attune to/unlock its power. Mechanically, the character is granted the Least, Lesser, or Greater Legacy feat upon completion of the proper ritual. It is not a power of the item itself.
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2012-11-14, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
1. where is feat rogue? we can add that in for some more feats.
2. nope. the spell just says you have to meet the prerequisites for the abyssal heritor feat, it says nothing about the feat you are replacing. i understand your position, but the spell doesn't actually say that, so while it may be RAI, it isn't RAW.
3. undergoing the legacy ritual actually gives you a bonus feat, if i was trying to trade out benefits equivalent to feats, i could get dozens of weapon proficiencies from fighter, and ranger, and monk. there's cheese (the spell combo we're referring to, for example), and then there's cheating.78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.
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2012-11-14, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
I wonder what most feats you can get from class levels alone is...
Fighter 2/Wizard 1 (scribe scroll)/Monk 2/Feat Rogue 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Wu Jen 1/soulknife 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Psion 1/Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/ Swashbuckler 1/Master Thrower 5.
So that's feats from armour, 2 fighter feats, scribe scroll, 2 monk feats, IUS from monk, 2 feat rogue feats, 2 psywar feats, 1 metamagic feat (WuJen), Wild talent and wf (mindblade) from soulknife, 3 feats from domains or devotion feats from Cloistered Cleric, a bonus feat for Psion, proficiency with all shields including tower and exotic shields from crusader, weapon finesse with swashbuckler.
Plus the VoP and normal and legacy feats.
The five master thrower levels double all your feats by shuffling them all for weapon focus with thrown weapons and then getting Improved critical for all of them, which you can then shuffle away again.
So that's... Yeah I don't know how many feats. But quite a lot, especially if you armour shuffle after every class you take that grants armour proficiency.
And on top of that you get wizard, cleric, wu-jen and psion spell completion item access, and 4 attacks per round, and some spells and power points, and a mindblade, a familiar (or abrupt jaunt if you prefer) and a psicrystal, and maneuvers, and evasion (twice) and trapfinding and wis to AC and a few other things, and decent HP. You get more class features than a core fighter!
I suppose you could look through the every feat commoner thread for ideas.Last edited by Randomguy; 2012-11-14 at 05:26 PM.
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2012-11-14, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
The bolded statement isn't going to fly with anyone until you can substantiate it. Until you show some kind of proof that feat-slots are a thing, they're not; and your argument fails for being based on something you made up. I'll happily agree that it's a reasonable houserule. I'll even tentatively agree that it may have been what was intended. It, however, is not in any way, shape, form, or fashion part of the actual RAW.
#3 depends on the phrasing for the item. Some items say that they give you the effect of the feat, others say you have the feat as long as the item is worn or wielded. Read the item's description carefully.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-14, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
1: Feats, once chosen and <Fluff for getting the feat>, do not Lose the restriction of what they can be. confirmed PHB2, Page 192-193
2: All prerequisites of the Abyssal Heritor feat, including providing a feat in exchange/to be replaced which does not have restrictions (such as those defined by Bonus Feats, Fighter, PHB pg 38) that exclude the choice of an abyssal Heritor feat at that level. Embrace the Dark Chaos, Fiendish Codex 1, pg 92, seemingly redundant line
Legacy Ritual: I thought you had to take, not recieve, the legacy attunement feats, i read it as feats granted through weapons, which can go both ways, but normally is granted the benefits of, not haveLast edited by toapat; 2012-11-14 at 07:55 PM.
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2012-11-14, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
1: I just read through that whole section, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Even the part specific to retraining feats doesn't even mention anything of the sort. Assuming the section you're referencing did state or even imply what you claim it does, that would be a general rule regarding choices made when retraining, and it would only apply to retraining. Even if it could be applied outside of retraining, the specific wording of Embrace the Dark Chaos would override it per primary source.
2: Still invalid given 1 is still just something you made up.Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2012-11-14 at 08:18 PM.
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2012-11-14, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
PHB2 and FC1 have no inherent relationship and casting the dark chaos spells isn't retraining. You're applying an unrelated rule to the spell.
Also, the line you're "quoting" there, doesn't actually appear anywhere on page 192 or 193 of PHB2. There is such a restriction on retraining feats, but there's nothing in the language in that section that suggests this is a reference to a default rule and not just part of the retraining system.
Your dead-wrong about the legacy feats. They're granted as bonus feats upon completing a legacy ritual and -never- have to be selected as a feat on character advancement. To use your own made-up idea, they effectively create a "feat-slot" for themselves when you complete the ritual and pay the fee.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-14, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2012-11-14, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
1: The line im quoting is alot simpler then im making it, as i said, it is the Seemingly redundant line in Embrace
If the subject does not qualify for the feat, the spell fails
2: I said i was mistaken about the legacy feats, because i thought the feats being thrown out were weapon granted, not granted by ritual, feats.Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-14 at 08:57 PM.
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2012-11-14, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
That's not even close to what it says:
"The subject immediately gains one
Abyssal heritor feat for which it
qualifies, chosen by you at the time
of casting. If the subject does not
qualify for the designated feat, the
spell fails."
You don't have to pick a feat it qualifies for, but it will only gain one for which it qualifies.
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2012-11-14, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Originally Posted by PHB2, pg 193 on feat retraining
I defy you, toapat, to find anything in that passage that's even mildly suggestive of the idea that this is a reiteration of a default rule.
In fact, I invite anyone at all to interpret the quoted text as referring to a default rule of any sort, by use of logical reasoning.
Feat retraining is not relevant to the DCFS, or anything else to do with feats except when actually using the retraining rules.
Barring something, anything, that's actually a piece of rules text or logical reasoning based there-on,I'm done with this discussion.The evidence I've put foward speaks for itself.
There is no link between the feat retraining rules and any other piece of rules text.
There are no "feat slots" or anything similar.
The DCFS can swap any feat you have, by RAW, even though it's a horribly cheesy and unbalancing trick. Only the most high-op and cheesy games will allow it to function by RAW, otherwise it will almost certainly be banned or nerfed by a reasonable DM.
That's all there really is to say on this matter.
Edit: It occurs to me that toapat may be taking rules that are even further out of context to the issue at hand by referencing the class feature retraining rules. By those rules you can replace bonus feats with other bonus feats you would've qualified for, but those rules are even further removed from how feats work at the basic level, and have even less to do with the DCFS than the passage I quoted.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-14 at 09:25 PM.
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2012-11-14, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.
It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.
The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.My Homebrew: found here.
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2012-11-14, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
So if feat retraining is not being used as rules that define how to trade out feats, then how can it be defining rules that define restrictions on how to trade out feats?
Well that, and the fact that you are using the common English version of perquisite instead of the the perquisites listed in the feat entries.Last edited by olentu; 2012-11-14 at 09:24 PM.
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2012-11-14, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Except it doesn't. It's RAW that says when you retrain feats you have to have qualified for the feat you're taking as a replacement at the time you took the feat being replaced.
You're saying that specific rule is a general rule, when it's not. The only general rule regarding feats is that you get one at 1st and every 3rd level. That's it.
The argument's not "it's a spell so the RAW doesn't matter" it's "It's a spell, so that completely unrelated bit of RAW for an optional subsystem doesn't apply." Specific trumps general. You're arguing one specific trumps another specific.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-11-14, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Let's take the RAW:
You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.
And let's use an example character retraining a feat and following the above rule to the letter:
Mr. Fighter took Weapon Focus at his Fighter 1 bonus feat, a Fighter bonus feat slot. He wants to replace it with Skill Focus: Basket Weaving. Per the above RAW, he meets the prerequisites for Skill Focus: Basket Weaving in his current state, and he can show that he met the prerequisites for Skill Focus: Basket Weaving at 1st level when he chose Weapon Focus. It passes the RAW and it's permissible.
Everything you've been saying is absolutely invalid, you're making up rules. A character qualifying for a feat and a feat slot qualifying for a feat are two different things. If there were such a general rule on feat selection, Specific Trumps General per the Primary Source rules, so the specific effect of Embrace the Dark Chaos replacing any feat with any abyssal heritor feat would be an exception to that general rule. Even if feat-slot-qualification exists, Embrace the Dark Chaos specifies that the only limit in place is character-qualification, not feat-slot-qualification. Stop making up silly rules.Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2012-11-14 at 09:30 PM.
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2012-11-14, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
And now you are handwaiving the argument by saying that "it is a specific rule, not general". The specific is not the part im even using, as the specific has no relevance to the spell because one is defining the rules for the feat swap.
Thing is, that section itself also clarifies something that is not remotely clear at all in the core rules: That a Fighter: Bonus Feat is a class ability, and that the Feat granted only occupies the Fighter bonus feat. The restrictions that are imposed on aquiring the feat are always there, and so, while not actively called into service, will dropkick the heritor featLast edited by toapat; 2012-11-14 at 09:45 PM.
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2012-11-14, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
I've already shown that this interpretation doesn't hold water even within the context of the retraining rules. You can retrain a Fighter bonus feat into one that's not available as a Fighter bonus feat, and as long as you met the prerequisites for the new feat at the level you gained the feat that's being replaced, it passes the RAW test.
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2012-11-14, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle
Those rules clarify nothing. They add rules that didn't previously exist. This is even said by the introduction to that chapter. Before those rules were introduced, your feat choices were set in stone unless you were subject to a psychic reformation effect.
There are still no general rules for replacing feats, because it's only possible by employing either the retraining rules or using a spell or power to accomplish the desired effect.
You're taking a specific rule and saying that it's creates an implication, and that in turn that implication is RAW.
Implications that may or may not be inherent to a piece of RAW aren't RAW in and of themselves; if for no other reason then because implication isn't written anywhere.
It can't be part of the rules as written when it's not actually written.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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