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  1. Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    I've already shown that this interpretation doesn't hold water even within the context of the retraining rules. You can retrain a Fighter bonus feat into one that's not available as a Fighter bonus feat, and as long as you met the prerequisites for the new feat at the level you gained the feat that's being replaced, it passes the RAW test.
    Your example doesnt work, partly because you dont define the scenario enough, and partly because one of the prerequisites of that specific swap are that the feat to be swapped in, be able to be taken as a fighter bonus feat, but also because you cant have any fewer then 2 feats, if you have a fighter level (even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).

    A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.


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  2. Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Your example doesnt work, partly because you dont define the scenario enough, and partly because one of the prerequisites of that specific swap are that the feat to be swapped in, be able to be taken as a fighter bonus feat, but also because you cant have any fewer then 2 feats, if you have a fighter level (even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).

    A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.
    Okay, you may have missed it the first time so allow me to say it gain. You are apparently not using the term prerequisite properly. Prerequisites are the things listed as a prerequisite in the feat descriptions. If you wish to claim that they are more than that you are going to need something to back it up.

  3. Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    (even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).
    I have no desire to get involved in the futile feat prerequisite kerfuffle, but I do feel like making a minor correction: mindless creatures never get any feats from hit dice; they can only gain feats through racial bonuses (and those are rare).
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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  4. Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    Okay, you may have missed it the first time so allow me to say it gain. You are apparently not using the term prerequisite properly. Prerequisites are the things listed as a prerequisite in the feat descriptions. If you wish to claim that they are more than that you are going to need something to back it up.
    One of the prerequisites of normally taking a feat is to have an "open feat" (or whatever the game terminology is). The examples for feat swapping are really bad in being clear. One of the restrictions/Prerequisites of feat swapping is you had to have been able to make that specific choice when you were that level (Ill give that the rules arent specific enough in the lvl 1 instance, although the "Must have been able to make that specific choice when that level" says no to me, that doesnt work). I, on the other hand, was not bringing them up because of that, but because it clarifies that Fighter's Bonus feats, are actually a class feature which grants you additional feats with which you have a restricted choice of what they are/can be, or that Feats retain the knowledge of their restrictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    I have no desire to get involved in the futile feat prerequisite kerfuffle, but I do feel like making a minor correction: mindless creatures never get any feats from hit dice; they can only gain feats through racial bonuses (and those are rare).
    /facepalm @ self, i forgot Oozes existed. interestingly they can be drowned and starved


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  5. Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    interestingly they can be drowned and starved
    They eat and breath, so... yeah. >.>

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Your example doesnt work, partly because you dont define the scenario enough, and partly because one of the prerequisites of that specific swap are that the feat to be swapped in, be able to be taken as a fighter bonus feat, but also because you cant have any fewer then 2 feats, if you have a fighter level (even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).

    A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.
    That's not what the RAW says, though. You only have to show that you met the prerequisites of the feat to be taken. A little bit below on that same page you'll find the heading Types of Feats, which is a completely different section from the prerequisites, and that's where Fighter bonus feats are separated from non-Fighter bonus feats. The rules on retraining makes no mention of matching the type of feat, only that you met the prerequisites for that specific feat at the level you intend to place it. The type of feat is irrelevant, and you can retrain Fighter bonus feats into non-Fighter bonus feats.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    *snip*
    *18 minutes of looking at the wrong rules, rulebook, and table for the counterpoint*

    here is the thing: You actually are using the Class Feature Retraining rules, not the Feat Retraining rules when dealing with Fighter Bonus Feats (They are actually class features). So yes, you do have to actually meet the condition of "Is able to be selected as a Fighter Bonus feat".

    Edit: Part of the point is that the restrictions being important to question whether they are maintained (and that the retraining section clarifies, they do), is that those restrictions still apply to Dark Chaos's check to see if the feat to be replaced is a legal option for being replaced. As most class feature feats are restricted, this means that DCFS cant hit them. Feat retraining is actually just for the HD granted 7
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-14 at 11:19 PM.


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  8. Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Dark Chaos shuffling is something that DMs are going to houserule one way or the other if it actually comes up in game anyhow. I really don't see any sensible DM allowing someone to DCS away proficiency feats for say, metamagic or item creation. Fighter feats, I'd let someone swap. Come on, let melee have nice things once in a while.
    But that's just ad-hoc DM fiat, so really doesn't hold water in a RAW debate.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    *18 minutes of looking at the wrong rules, rulebook, and table for the counterpoint*

    here is the thing: You actually are using the Class Feature Retraining rules, not the Feat Retraining rules when dealing with Fighter Bonus Feats (They are actually class features). So yes, you do have to actually meet the condition of "Is able to be selected as a Fighter Bonus feat".

    Edit: Part of the point is that the restrictions being important to question whether they are maintained (and that the retraining section clarifies, they do), is that those restrictions still apply to Dark Chaos's check to see if the feat to be replaced is a legal option for being replaced. As most class feature feats are restricted, this means that DCFS cant hit them. Feat retraining is actually just for the HD granted 7
    Embrace the Dark Chaos does not replace class features, it replaces feats. Anything applicable to replacing class features is irrelevant. The only part about the retraining rules that would have anything to do with Embrace the Dark Chaos would be the feat retraining rules, which I've clearly demonstrated would not hinder it in any way. Yes, you've been looking at the wrong rules this whole time, Embrace the Dark Chaos has nothing to do with retraining class features, and the rules for retraining class features have no influence over how Embrace the Dark Chaos works.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    *Slander based on False information as opposed to actually reading the books*
    No, the feat retraining rules dont apply to feats granted by Fighter bonus feats because they are covered by the prior Class Feature retraining rules. The feat retraining rules only handle the 7 hitdice granted feats, as well as ones granted by flaws

    It also does change the way that the highly restricted feat slots which are specifically banned from taking the Abyssal Heritor feats normally interact with Embrace the Dark Chaos. Fighter Bonus Feats, even though they are feats, are controlled by Class Features. Because Class Features require the chosen feat to meet Pre-requisites, and also can only be turned into valid choices for which the class feature has defined, Embrace can not as a result replace a bonus feat granted by Fighter, Wizard, or Monk.


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  11. Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    *Slander based on False information as opposed to actually reading the books*
    That's not very nice, you know.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    That's not very nice, you know.
    i keep getting replies that contain more nitpicking and less reading each time.

    the point is, he replied in an offensive manner, after reading a reply. It also was uninformed and continued the standard response "Oh, but it is a spell, and so it doesnt follow RAW about how it works", which is why i point out that responses that rely on saying a spell functions despite all other rules, is wrong. Spells only obliterate the rules when they specifically state they can, such as Wish and miracle. Embrace the Dark Chaos is not that flexibly worded.

    The fact is, most sources of bonus feats grant restricted choices. The sources of them never deactivate, and actually invalidate the replacement of the feat they are granting with an Abyssal heritor feat.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-15 at 12:49 AM.


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  13. Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    While getting the bonus feats is a class feature, the bonus feats themselves are still just feats. There's nothing in the retraining section of PHB2 that says you have to use the class feature retraining rules to swap bonus feats instead of the feat retraining rules. An egregious oversight on the part of WotC, but an oversight nonetheless. You can swap your fighter bonus feats for anything else you met the prerequisites for at the time you got the bonus feat. RAW does stupid stuff like this sometimes. *makes a mental note to houserule that mistake away*

    Arguing that it shouldn't is one thing, and this is a case where few would disagree if that's what you were arguing. That's not what you're arguing though. You're arguing that by RAW they can't make these decisions when there's nothing in the RAW to support your statement.

    Not only do the retraining rules emphatically not prevent the DCFS from working, they provide a mundane means of doing largely the same thing because of poor editing.

    How much does it suck that continuing the discussion has brought scrutiny to rules that actually weaken your position?
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-15 at 12:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    Make sure you take dodge as your first shuffled feat, and designate the DM as your opponent. Beware if he has Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, as books will be heading in your direction.

    Please only save that for the cheesiest of games.

    Are we stuck with 38 feats as a fighter? Fighter 20 isn't much to work with. Even with 38 feats, still not equal to, say, a warblade, much less almost any caster.
    Are you sure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    *snip*
    Feat swapping is actually pretty specifically worded, only 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level fighter feats can be replaced with them, and that is because that specific RAW does not differentiate 2 feat slots of the same level.

    It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.

    The problem with saying that you dont have to meet the pre-requisite of having a feat open at a given level, or the restrictions such as those provided by a given Bonus Feat Class Feature, is that you dont have a 2nd level feat to take Skill focus with. Saying that you can is a houserule, because you are specifically overriding the standard feat progression, or allowing the purchase of any and all feats a player qualifies. If you rule that Embrace can land the feat in the slot, then the class feature granting the slot removes the embraced heritor feat from the slot immediately, as the Abyssal heritor feat is not a legal option for the granted bonus feat. The class feature and feat retraining rules heavily support the fact that a Feat never looses the restrictions that influenced it.


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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Feat swapping is actually pretty specifically worded, only 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level fighter feats can be replaced with them, and that is because that specific RAW does not differentiate 2 feat slots of the same level.

    It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.

    The problem with saying that you dont have to meet the pre-requisite of having a feat open at a given level, or the restrictions such as those provided by a given Bonus Feat Class Feature, is that you dont have a 2nd level feat to take Skill focus with. Saying that you can is a houserule, because you are specifically overriding the standard feat progression, or allowing the purchase of any and all feats a player qualifies. If you rule that Embrace can land the feat in the slot, then the class feature granting the slot removes the embraced heritor feat from the slot immediately, as the Abyssal heritor feat is not a legal option for the granted bonus feat. The class feature and feat retraining rules heavily support the fact that a Feat never looses the restrictions that influenced it.
    All right, since you so advocate reading the books over false information point out where all this stuff that you are basing your argument is in the books. Not just the page numbers as that is apparently not specific enough. And remember the books have to actually say the things you claim they are saying, if not it's just houserules.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.
    You're making up rules again, there is no such prerequisite as having an open feat slot to spend. There are tons of ways to gain feats in this game, and effects which cause the loss of a feat do not have to differentiate based on the source of those feats.

    "This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subjectís choice that it already possesses. The replaced feat need not have been an Abyssal heritor feat."
    The target of the spell picks a feat he has, it does not differentiate where that feat came from, just that he has it. It even specifies that the abyssal heritor feat gained does not need to replace another abyssal heritor feat, that's a feat type, it specifically states that it does not have to replace a feat of the same type. Feats are tagged with things like [metamagic], [item creation], [abyssal heritor], [aberrant], [general], etc., and fighter bonus feats are there too, but most of them are labeled [general]. Embrace the Dark Chaos doesn't care what type of feat you're replacing, it swaps in an [abyssal heritor] feat for a feat of any other type, including fighter bonus feats.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Feat swapping is actually pretty specifically worded, only 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level fighter feats can be replaced with them, and that is because that specific RAW does not differentiate 2 feat slots of the same level.

    It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.

    The problem with saying that you dont have to meet the pre-requisite of having a feat open at a given level, or the restrictions such as those provided by a given Bonus Feat Class Feature, is that you dont have a 2nd level feat to take Skill focus with. Saying that you can is a houserule, because you are specifically overriding the standard feat progression, or allowing the purchase of any and all feats a player qualifies. If you rule that Embrace can land the feat in the slot, then the class feature granting the slot removes the embraced heritor feat from the slot immediately, as the Abyssal heritor feat is not a legal option for the granted bonus feat. The class feature and feat retraining rules heavily support the fact that a Feat never looses the restrictions that influenced it.
    You're just making up more stuff to try and support the stuff you've already made up now.

    There's nothing in any of the bonus feat class features of any class that says that they ever check to make sure the feat selected is still legal. This is because the general rule is feats cannot be changed once selected. Or rather the default rules don't actually give any way to swap a feat already selected, and so don't need to give any instruction on how its done.

    The retraining rules give you a way to swap feats or class-features but as I said before, neither ever makes mention or even allusion to a general rule (that doesn't exist) that they are reafirming. They also don't have anything in their language to say that you must use the class-feature retraining rules to retrain feats recieved via class-features.

    There are no feat slots. You've consistently failed to prove their existence for more than a day now. You can't base any argument on them until you prove their existence (which you can't since you made them up).

    Without the feat-slot idea being RAW the entirety of the rest of your arguments falls apart. Feat slots have no properties because they don't exist and even if they did they don't have any effect on the prerequisites of the feats being dropped into them, meaning you not only have to prove these feat-slots exist, but show where the language surrounding them changes the prerequisites of the feats they allow for. If you can't do this then the only prerequisites any feat has are the ones listed in prerequisite line of the description of that feat and these are the only prerequisites that the DCFS or feat retraining rules care about.

    As I've said several times now, what you're proposing is a decent enough set of houserules, but as long as you keep insisting that it's RAW you're just blowing smoke until and unless you can cite a specific passage that shows you're right.

    I've already quoted both of the sections relevant to your argument and neither of them support your argument at all.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-15 at 01:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Different angle now. Toapat, if you can Embrace a Ranger's Endurance (e.g.) into a random Abyssal Heritor feat, which apparently overrides the "feat slot", why can't you Shun it into Skill Focus? Abyssal Heritor feats are just as invalid for the Ranger 3 feat as Skill Focus is, so I don't see why Embrace can override if Shun can't.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    alight, i had an idea for a feat whore build. can anyone get together a build that has 66 feats?

    here's what i've got so far.

    Chaotic evil elf
    Rogue 1, bard 4, wilder 4, cerebremancer 4, fighter 1, ranger 1, monk 1, crusader 1, warblade 1
    2 flaws 2 other classes granting heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency 1

    feat prerequisites: Str 13, Con 15, Wis 15, Cha 15 Intimidate 9 ranks,

    Natural attacks deal +1 fire damage, +57 HP, resist fire 5, +2 saves against fire effects, +9 saves against acid effects, resist acid 27, +9 knowledge, all knowledge always class skill, +8 listen, +25 search, +38 spot, Darkvision 185 ft., lowlight vision, +10 saves against paralysis, dragonblood subtype, tail slap 1d6, 2 claws 1d6, charm animal deeper darkness and insect plague as spells known, +1 CL with acid spells, +19 natural armor, +7 profane damage on natural attacks, -2 sleight of hand, DR 12/lawful, -2 survival, +2 escape artist, -2 bluff, reroll 12 SA dice, -2 diplomacy, -2 handle animal, -2 gather information, +12 knowledge (planes), +12 Spellcraft, +12 bardic knowledge, Spellcraft always class skill, absorb 12 negative levels/day, +12 perform, fascinate 12/day, -2 disguise, poison 1/hour, -2 heal, 12 floating +1 insight bonuses, weapons chaotic aligned, weapons deal 5d6 extra damage to lawful creatures, +10 swim, +36 jump, fear aura 6/day, +2 any check 6/day, -3 diplomacy vs. good creatures, +7 intimidate, blind sight 30 ft. 6/day, fast healing 6 1/day, daze 6/day, +10 ft. reach, -1 AC, -2 hide, bite 1d4, blind sense 30 ft., healed by negative energy, harmed by positive energy, no need to sleep or eat, immune to sleep, +2 to saves against poison and disease, light fortification, no death from massive damage, +4 grapple, +5 climb, +4 balance, 2 tentacles 1d4, -1 melee attack rolls, +4 saves vs. ingested poison or disease, fly 15 ft, immune altitude fatigue and sickness, cold resist 10, +10 to save against mind affecting, 16 power points, swim 30 ft., +6 saves vs. spells/powers/SLA/PLA, intimidate as a class skill, +1 manifester level for compulsion, +1 save DC for compulsion powers, 1/day mind blast, bonus on k. psionics/ concentration/ psycraft/ sense motive equal to number of PP spent on successful compulsion power, 4 tentacles 1d4, improved grab with tentacles, extract brains, psionic charm and read thoughts known, dispel psionics and psionic dominate known,

    1 Fire heritage, 2 improved elemental heritage, 3 dragon touched, 4 draconic heritage (black, rotd), 5 draconic knowledge, 6 draconic senses, 7 dragon tail, 8 draconic claw, 9 draconic legacy, 10 draconic power, 11 draconic resistance, 12 draconic skin, 13 draconic toughness, 14 claws of the beast, 15 cloak of the obyrith, 16 demonic skin, 17 demonic sneak attack, 18 eyes of the abyss, 19 heart of the nabassu, 20 keeper of forbidden lore, 21 otherworldly countenance (beauty), 22 poison talons, 23 precognitive visions, 24 primordial scion, 25 vestigial wings, 26 devilís aura, 27 devilís favor, 28 devilís flesh, 29 devilís sight, 30 devilís stamina, 31 devilís tongue, 32 willing deformity, 33 deformity tall, 34 deformity teeth, 35 deformity tongue, 36 tomb tainted soul, 37 tomb born vitality, 38 tomb born resilience, 39 tomb born fortitude, 40-46 aberration blood x7, 47 bestial hide, 48 deepspawn, 49 durable form, 50 inhuman reach, 51 inhuman vision, 52 scavenging gullet, 53 starspawn, 54 warped mind, 55 waterspawn, 56 illithid heritage, 57 illithid compulsion, 58 illithid blast, 58 illithid enthusiast, 59-62 illithid grapple x4, 63 illithid extraction, 64 illithid legacy, 65 greater illithid legacy, 66 illithid skin,

    Light armor 9, medium armor 5, heavy armor 4, shields 8, tower shields 2, elf 6, flaws 2, levels 7, fighter 1, monk 2, ranger 1 47 feats. Need 22 more.


    that's abbysal heritor feats, draconic feats, aberrant feats, illithid heritage feats, and tomb tainted feats. but i'm short 22 feats. note that bard level 1 is needed for bardic knowledge (1 feat gives a bonus to that), and ML 8 is needed to use the powers known granted by illithid heritage feats. i chose wilder instead of psion because most of the feat granted abilities are charisma based, while i don't actually need any intelligence.
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  21. Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    They eat and breath, so... yeah. >.>
    ...Where... Where are it's lungs?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.
    Those are actually Retraining rules that specify that you have to had qualified at that time that you are taking the feats. The Fighter's Bonus feat "may" be a class feature, but they are specifically called out as granting the Fighter a feat pertaining to a specific list (The Fighter bonus feat list). I like to view this as ironic really...

    A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
    But if this is the case, why do they even have a specific list of feats for Fighters?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    i keep getting replies that contain more nitpicking and less reading each time.
    That is actually how true knowledge is learned. Someone proposes an idea, someone corrects to that idea creating a new idea which is then corrected and so on and so forth into eternity.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    the point is, he replied in an offensive manner, after reading a reply. It also was uninformed and continued the standard response "Oh, but it is a spell, and so it doesnt follow RAW about how it works", which is why i point out that responses that rely on saying a spell functions despite all other rules, is wrong.
    It doesn't help you to counterattack him. Just calm down and offer a reasonable counter argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Spells only obliterate the rules when they specifically state they can, such as Wish and miracle. Embrace the Dark Chaos is not that flexibly worded.
    Embrace and Shun are both flexible since they affect and pertain to feats which are a flexible mechanic of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    The fact is, most sources of bonus feats grant restricted choices. The sources of them never deactivate, and actually invalidate the replacement of the feat they are granting with an Abyssal heritor feat.
    Indeed most bonus feats do grant restricted choices, however since most of those sources are indeed just that, feats, they may be converted into Abyssal Heritor feats, because the Spell does not state that you must qualify for the feat at the time that you shuffle it out like the retraining rules actually do.

  22. Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    ...Where... Where are it's lungs?
    actually, breath makes sense, within an extent. They are gel masses that, in a vacuum, decompress, or when underwater, they disperse as a result of being a low density fluid. I thought that like outsiders though, they didnt need to eat, but could.

    No, Nitpicking as in Completely ignoring the point, as in not reading the post and posting actual problems.

    Shun the Dark Chaos isnt a problem, its only Embrace which matters. The second line means that the spell has to recheck whether the target can RAW recieve an abyssal heritor feat (which technically (PHB p87), no they cant, but im assuming we are triggering step 2-4 simultaneously so that the spell works.). Considering the spell doesnt even have an effect on non-chaotic targets, the spell fizzles anyway, so im also ignoring that because we are assuming the target qualifies for it.

    The retraining rules were brought in because they are RAW confirmation that the fighter's Bonus Feats are class features, which specifically say this:
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, p38
    These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats.
    Even if you can target the fighter/feat rogue bonus feats, you absolutely can not land an abyssal heritor feat in there. when specifically this becomes a problem is the choice of the DM, as to whether Embrace can not declare a fighter bonus feat as a target, or it lands the feat, but as a result, the bonus feat class feature evicts the abyssal heritor feat. You cant shun an abyssal heritor feat you dont have.

    Monk, Rogue Ability (Feat), Elf weapon Proficiencies, and Wizard bonus feats are, on the other hand, legal targets, as they do not contain anything as definitely permanent as the restrictions on fighter bonus feats
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-20 at 12:38 AM.


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  23. Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    ...Where... Where are it's lungs?
    Not every creature needs lungs to breath, especially a fantasy creature. >.> But it's really irrelevant how they breath. The rules say they do.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-11-20 at 12:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Not every creature needs lungs to breath, especially a fantasy creature. >.> But it's really irrelevant how they breath. The rules say they do.
    Its a fluid mass. It dissolves underwater or pulls apart in space.

    doesnt change that they should have wrote rules specifically for them to not be able to survive in water, like lava for mortals.


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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    I don't know how that's relevant to anything I said.

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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    @ toapat:

    Now you're not even being consistent anymore. Why is it that a monk's restricted choice of feats is a valid target and a fighter's isn't?

    Nevermind you -still- (in spite of all this time you've had to look) can't point to a single piece of rules text to support your argument that the restriction of choice a class-feature creates is part of the prerequisites of a feat. (This is of course, because no such rules text exists.)

    You can't point to anything to make the PHB2 retraining rules relevant, because no such item exists for you to point at.

    You're touting a tenuous implication as RAW when the actual RAW doesn't support your argument at all and, in the case of the retraining rules, isn't even self-consistent.

    Bonus points: no less than 4 people have pointed out the errors you are, or at least were, consistently making.

    What you've presented remains a reasonable enough house-rule but it is in no way RAW.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-20 at 12:51 AM.
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  27. Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Now you're not even being consistent anymore. Why is it that a monk's restricted choice of feats is a valid target and a fighter's isn't?
    None of those i mentioned as being viable targets have the condition that they Must be those feats, Fighter/Feat rogue feats outright say they do. Retraining confirms that bonus Feat is a class feature granting a feat.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-20 at 12:54 AM.


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  28. Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    One of the prerequisites of normally taking a feat is to have an "open feat" (or whatever the game terminology is).
    No, the normal progression is that upon gaining a feat from leveling up you select it right away, you are not allowed to put off the choice either, there are no feat slots. You chose the feat when leveling up, and the level up process dictates at what point you gain it.

    The examples for feat swapping are really bad in being clear. One of the restrictions/Prerequisites of feat swapping is you had to have been able to make that specific choice when you were that level (Ill give that the rules arent specific enough in the lvl 1 instance, although the "Must have been able to make that specific choice when that level" says no to me, that doesnt work). I, on the other hand, was not bringing them up because of that, but because it clarifies that Fighter's Bonus feats, are actually a class feature which grants you additional feats with which you have a restricted choice of what they are/can be, or that Feats retain the knowledge of their restrictions.
    The examples for feat swapping in the PHB2 retraining rules are very clear. When retraining you must show that you would have qualified for the feat you are choosing at the same time you took the initial feat you are swapping out. That is to say the new feat must have also been a legal choice at the time of gaining the feat you are swapping out.

    The obvious extension to that for bonus feats (like a fighter) is that one fighter bonus feat has to be swapped for another, because at the time of selection only fighter bonus feats were legal choices.

    The Chaos Shuffle spells on the other hand have no such clauses restricting its application, indeed it even says. "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies".

    As a DM, you might look at the retraining rules in attempting to limit cheeze potential of the chaos shuffle, however RAW there is no such restriction.

    A wiser course would be to note that the Shun the Dark Chaos spell doesn't say that either the caster or the casted upon gets to choose the new feat, unlike Embrace The Dark Chaos. Never mind, apparently I can not read, that wrong, it says you get to pick both.
    Last edited by TypoNinja; 2012-11-20 at 01:06 AM.
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  29. Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    A wiser course would be to note that the Shun the Dark Chaos spell doesn't say that either the caster or the casted upon gets to choose the new feat, unlike Embrace The Dark Chaos.
    nope, specifically specifies the subject chooses the lost abyssal heritor feat and the replacement for the feat. I havent been arguing against the function of the entire shun spell because the spell is worded without actual holes or problems that people ignore about Embrace to make the thing work.


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  30. Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Dark Chaos Shuffle

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    nope, specifically specifies the subject chooses the lost abyssal heritor feat and the replacement for the feat. I havent been arguing against the function of the entire shun spell because the spell is worded without actual holes or problems that people ignore about Embrace to make the thing work.
    Yea I just noticed that right now when glancing back, apparently I just can't read, no idea how I missed it. So ignore that bit, I stand by the rest. :P
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