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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Clistenes's Avatar

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    Default Cheese with Simulacrum

    O.K. so you are a wizard with the Simulacrum spell, and you are fond to make copies of your defeated enemies and carry them around.

    Most of them will be useless as warriors, given their reduced HD and how expensive is to heal them, but you can use them for their spells and spell-like tricks. For example:

    -You can use a simulacrum of a defeated Wizard to make him/her prepare those low-level utility spells you never bother with.

    -You can use a simulacrum of a defeated Bard to make him/her sing for you.

    -You can use a simulacrum of a defeated Druid to cast his/her spells for you (I don't think a simulacrum of a Cleric should keep his/her spells).

    -You can use a simulacrum of a Beholder to create an Antimagic zone every time you wish, to make tunnels when you are exploring subterranean dungeons, to petrify and transport prisioners...etc.

    -You can use a simulacrum of a Succubus to Teleport and to Ethereal Jaunt through walls at will (just put the party into a Portable Hole, and let her teleport).

    ...etc.; the list goes on...

    But carrying around that freakish retinue would be a bad idea: It would scare the peasants, and since they have a crappy HD, they would be easily dispatched by enemies.

    The obvious solution would be to carry them in a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding, but since they aren't immune to starvation or suffocation (the entry o the spell doesn't say so), they would die.

    So their owner should PaO them into something he could safely carry in his Bag of Holding:
    -The succubus doesn't need to eat or breathe and can polimorph herself, so she doesn't need help.
    -The Beholder can be polymorphed into an Eyeball, which would allow him to use his Antimagic Cone and four eyestalks, and is small enough to fit in your pocket.
    -The druid needs to remain a living being to use his/her spells, so you can polymorph him/her into a Grig, Petal or Atomie and carry him/her around as a pet (or even into your non-magical bag).
    -The Bard is easy. Polymorph him into something with a voice and hands and everything will go peachy: A Grig you can carry in you pocket or a Vampire Spawn, Wight or Mummy you can carry in your Bag of Holding.

    The wizards are more difficult: they need to remain intelligent enough to use their spells, and they need to be polymorphed into something that is a medium mammal (so PaO is permanent) and doesn't need to breathe (so you can carry them in your Bag of Holding) or really small (so you can carry them in your non-magical bag).

    Your thoughts? What would you polymorph the wizards into? And what monsters would you replicate with Simulacrum?.

    EDIT: The succubus DOES need to breathe, so she would need help too.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-11-15 at 10:03 AM.

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    Mithril Leaf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    And what monsters would you replicate with Simulacrum?.
    Myself, and have them help me with circle magic. I'm sure there's a handbook or something for this somewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Myself, and have them help me with circle magic. I'm sure there's a handbook or something for this somewhere.
    Well, yes, if you are the highest level wizard available. I would duplicate the Big Bad instead if he were a higher level wizard than myself.

    Circle Magic is in one of the Forgotten Realms books. Magic of Faerun, or Unreachable East. The Red Wizards do it a lot.

    There are also some group rites in the Relic and Rituals book, of the Scarred Lands campaign.

    And how would you carry your doubles around?

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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    And how would you carry your doubles around?
    Smoky Confinement, Complete Mage, Sor/Wiz 6.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Go Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 10/ Full Casting PrC 5, make nine Simulacrums of yourself, each is a Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5.

    They each take turns acting as circle leader with four others. Each of them leads once and participates four times. Each one contributes a 3rd level spell slot when participating, and a 4th level spell slot when leading. Each one will have 16 spell levels to spend after his circle magic, which they will each use to heighten a 4th level spell to 20th level per the exception to the normal heighten limitation given in the circle magic rules. You now have nine simulacrums, each with a 20th level spell prepared. This takes them nine hours to accomplish, but each one only spends five hours out of those nine doing circle magic.

    You then lead a circle with all nine simulacrums participating. You can spend a spell of any level you want, let's assume you contribute a 0-level spell. Each of your simulacrums contributes their 20th level spell. You gain 180 spell levels from this use of circle magic. Spend twenty of those to get a caster level of 40 for the day. Spend some five at a time to Maximize + Empower a bunch of spells (Disintegrate, Horrid Wilting, Maw of Chaos, etc.), then spend quite a few more to Heighten a bunch of save-or-die/lose spells to 20th level.

    You could easily have another nine simulacrums do the same thing, and you spend a second hour each day leading a circle to get another 180 spell levels. Your simulacrums can craft magic items when they're not doing circle magic, they'll have 14-hour days between circle magic with each other and with you and crafting, which leaves ample time for them to rest, prepare spells, and whatever else they need to do.

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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    You could easily have another nine simulacrums do the same thing, and you spend a second hour each day leading a circle to get another 180 spell levels. Your simulacrums can craft magic items when they're not doing circle magic, they'll have 14-hour days between circle magic with each other and with you and crafting, which leaves ample time for them to rest, prepare spells, and whatever else they need to do.
    Simulacrums don't gain XP, however, and it's debatable whether or not they have any at creation. So they might not be able to craft at all without Ambrosia, Agony, or some other method to craft without expending your own XP.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    And how would you carry your doubles around?
    Buy an enveloping pit for 3600 gp. It's like a portable hole, but 50' deep.

    Also, find a chronotyryn.
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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Simulacrums don't gain XP, however, and it's debatable whether or not they have any at creation. So they might not be able to craft at all without Ambrosia, Agony, or some other method to craft without expending your own XP.
    Pipes of Power. They allow you to take or give xp for crafting.

    I would rather use Dedicated Wright homunculus for crafting, but the simulacrums can bring to the table feats and spells you lack

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Go Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 10/ Full Casting PrC 5, make nine Simulacrums of yourself, each is a Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5.
    A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 has 2/3 of a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10, not half...is that a Red Wizard thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Smoky Confinement, Complete Mage, Sor/Wiz 6.
    The problem with that method is that, once they have been released, you have to carry them around for the rest of the day until you have prepared the spell again.

    If you could polymorph a simulacrum of a wizard into an undead or outsider, he wouldn't need to eat or breathe and you could carry them in a Portable Hole of Bag of Holding all day.

    Does a deva, succubus or trumpet archon count as mammals for PaO? Or, could you polymorph a wizard into a the sample lich of the MM? (I know you can't add templates with PaO, but I'm unsure if you can polymorph them into the sample creatures that are given in the book).

    EDIT: I forgot that most outsiders DO breathe.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-11-15 at 09:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 has 2/3 of a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10, not half...is that a Red Wizard thing?
    You left out the extra five levels of some casting PrC, such as Archmage. (I.e., Wiz 5/Red Wiz 5 vs Wiz 5/Red Wiz 10/PrC 5.)
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    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    Pipes of Power. They allow you to take or give xp for crafting.
    So another method of crafting without personally expending XP. Got it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    I would rather use Dedicated Wright homunculus for crafting, but the simulacrums can bring to the table feats and spell you lack
    Yes, but you'll have to find an opposing NPC that actually took crafting feats... which is fairly rare, from the metagame standpoint, as the DM doesn't usually want to give you 'extra' treasure and doesn't want to 'waste' feats on things you'll never use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 has 2/3 of a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10, not half...is that a Red Wizard thing?
    No, he had an arbitrary full casting PrC in there for the last five levels to get the build to 20. It doesn't matter to his build what full casting PrC you use, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    The problem with that method is that, once they have been released, you have to carry them around for the rest of the day until you have prepared the spell again.
    No, you just prepare X copies of the spell every day, where X is the number of castings you're prepared to use. And the spell doubles as a save-or-lose, so it's not even a waste of a spell slot. Alternately, keep a few scrolls around - they're relatively inexpensive (no costly material or XP components), and your caster level and save DC don't matter when you can simply order the target to fail the save.

    Or if you're really annoyed with the spell slots, you have a use for an Iron Flask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    If you could polymorph a simulacrum of a wizard into an undead or outsider, he wouldn't need to eat or breathe and you could carry them in a Portable Hole of Bag of Holding all day.
    You have a problem: "Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep." (emphasis added)
    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    Does a deva, succubus or trumpet archon count as mammals for PaO?
    Undefined in RAW, and DM dependant. Irrelevant for your plan, however, as Outsiders don't have all the qualities you want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    Or, could you polymorph a wizard into a the sample lich of the MM? (I know you can't add templates with PaO, but I'm unsure if you can polymorph them into the sample creatures that are given in the book).
    The sample lich in the MM is still a creature with a template. You'd pretty much have to start with a piece of a lich to do that.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    You have a problem: "Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep." (emphasis added)
    Yes, I remembered that after posting my reply. Kind of counter-intuitive, but the rules are the rules...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Or if you're really annoyed with the spell slots, you have a use for an Iron Flask.
    That's f***ing expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    The sample lich in the MM is still a creature with a template. You'd pretty much have to start with a piece of a lich to do that.
    That's annoying...is there any highly intelligent undead that is a non-templated creature?

    EDIT: HOORAY! I found what I was looking for! The Vitrous Drinker is an Int 18 medium undead (MMIV) You can polymorph all the simulacrums of wizards into Vitrous Drinkers and carry them around in your Bag of Holding!
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-11-15 at 10:10 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Why you makin this complicated?

    Issue each a Bottle of Air and a Ring of Sustenance. Carry them around in your aforementioned Portable Hole. If you're high enough level to be carrying around a retinue of Simulacrums in the first place, you're able to afford a few thousand gold each to keep them alive indefinitely.

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    Default Re: Cheese with Simulacrum

    Meh, or you can pop a permanent magnificent mansion from the portable hole to give them a place to stay. Toss around some arcane eyes keyed to a crystal ball, and you have an additional entertainment benefit. (Though, you may want to set up some house rules; you never know with those wizards, the bard, and that succubus...)

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