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2013-09-07, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
It has been brought up from time to time that Belkar's loss of a lvl in the Battle of Azure City might put him behind of other members of the order in terms of progress and related power.
Now that he's been drained again (this time it being a plot point) I wondered: I always took fro granted that his lvl was restored, much like wounds and other injuries are often cured off-panel. Now I know that this is not quite the same and restoration of lvls is quite a bit more challenging than restoring hit points.
But that plus the fact that it was more or less a thowaway joke to end the page on a gag informs my question: Was the mentioned lvl loss permanent?
What about other losses (not Belkar's current ones)?
I'd very much like to have an answer from the Giant personally, seeing as he is the only one who can know. I know there's quite a lot of speculation possible on the topic, but that won't answer the question.
I used google to search the boards, I'm sorry if this has been answered before.Last edited by Daywalker1983; 2013-09-07 at 11:07 AM.
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2013-09-07, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Level drain can be undone through a Restoration spell as long as you cast it within 24 hours.
Originally Posted by The Giant
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2013-09-07, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Belkar certainly didn't seem to think he was getting that level back.
However. Based on Rich's writing style, I doubt that any two members of the Order are at different levels--unless a joke requires them to be, in which case they are at different levels for the duration of that joke's strip. All these hundreds of strips later the level Roy lost from being resurrected has never ever been mentioned directly or indirectly in the comic, after all...Last edited by Kish; 2013-09-07 at 11:04 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-09-07, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2013-09-07, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2013-09-07, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Assume. Rich has repeatedly expressed his disinclination to worry about mechanical fidelity to the rules of D&D and will only explicitly show things like that if it will serve the ongoing plot or the humor of the strip.
Additionally, none of the Order have explicit levels in Rich's mind. So, even with losing a level, he likely thinks of Roy and Belkar as "high" levelled characters.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2013-09-07, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Porto Alegre, Brazil
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
With the first one, he most likely made the save later. It's a fort save, not too high and Belkar has a pretty good fort save. For the ones right now, Durkon shouldn't worry since he's undead and he'll most likely cast restoration on Belkar provided both survive either off-panel with barely (if any) mention or in a corner.
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2013-09-07, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2013-09-07, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
You may get one, Rich has been more active in the forums lately, but this is about the best quote I can find in the meantime :)
Check out phantasm's amazingly useful Index of the Giant's Quotes for more information!Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2013-09-07, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Thank you again.
I've checked the index, but found nothing that fits 100%. Problem to me is: There are points were lvl drain is story central and sometimes it isn't. Therefore there are cases where I would expect a remedy, whereas I don't in others. That clearly muddies the issue.
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2013-09-07, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Vancouver, BC
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
I've never played D&D, but I have played enough RPGs that I'm very emotionally invested in levels. When Belkar lost that level I nearly dropped to my knees and screamed "Noooooo!" The idea that Belkar lost a level and can never get it back is a really painful thought for me, probably because I over-level to ridiculous degrees in RPGs.
I totally understand that not everybody feels this strongly about levels. But whether he could get that level back was a really important question to me, personally.
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2013-09-07, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2013-09-07, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Porto Alegre, Brazil
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
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2013-09-07, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Fortitude save DC for a wight drain is 14, so unless Belkar made a pretty bad roll, there's good chances that he got it back after 24h, yes. Considering he's ranger/barbarian, his base fort save should be in the +10th, over which you can add his constitution modifier. We can reasonably consider that he would succeed unless he rolled a 1.
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2013-09-07, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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2013-09-07, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2012
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- Pilsen, Czech Republic
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Despite OP's express of disinterest in theorycrafting, I'd like to thank you for actually pointing out, what was he talking about. I was wondering who could drain Belkar's level during the battle of Azure City and only after reading your mention of the wight I realised out that it was actually not during the battle at all, but during the rebellion phase (link for anyone having the same trouble as me).
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2013-09-07, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
It seems to me that, unless there is an easy way to restore negative levels, it's WAY too strong of a spell. You spend all that time tying to gain a level, and someone can reverse it in one round?
Can you imagine a video game where you fight for days to level up for a boss, and in the fight he removes your levels and you have to do it all again? I wouldn't play that game for long.
Also, I agree with Rich 100% that a good story is better than an accurate story, but how cool would it be if he had a dozen people working under him who did nothing except scour through books trying to find legitimate ways to do what he wanted in the confines of the d&d rules. That would certainly be a relief to the more OCD among us. I'm still trying to figure out what feats Belkar has which makes him a dual dagger wielding killing machineLast edited by littlebum2002; 2013-09-07 at 05:01 PM.
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2013-09-07, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
I detect a slight problem with what you're saying*. Is Magic Missile, and indeed every damage spell, WAY too strong? They can kill a character, after all. A character who you've been fighting for days to level up to fight a boss because that's what RPGs are about...uh.
Also, I agree with Rich 100% that a good story is better than an accurate story, but how cool would it be if he had a dozen people working under him who did nothing except scour through books trying to find legitimate ways to do what he wanted in the confines of the d&d rules.
*I mean, other than that I'm not sure what spell you're referring to with "way too strong of a spell." The lowest-level spell I know that inflicts negative levels that stick around long enough that they might actually remove levels, is Energy Drain, a ninth-level spell!Last edited by Kish; 2013-09-07 at 05:06 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-09-07, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Note that this time, his level is not drained, but his constitution is. And with low constitution score comes a penalty to hit points. It's more like back when V had her strength drained to the point that she couldn't move her hands to cast spells.
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2013-09-07, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Vampire attacks include Ability Drain and Negative Levels. So Belkar probably has a CON of 1 and Negative Levels equal to CL-1.
At this point, a stubbed toe could possibly kill him.
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2013-09-08, 12:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
But that's the issue isn't it? Whenever Rich gets into something even slightly rules-specific it just confuses all his readers who DON'T play D&D.
In the end, if you have the choice between making people who enjoy rules spoof happy, or making people who enjoy reading happy, you're going to go with the people who enjoy reading, since that encompasses the other group.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2013-09-08, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
I on the other hand think he is right on the money.
My first experience with lvl drain BGII, when you go up against the vampires in the graveyard. The way they were able to tear thorugh my group with but a few hits evoked exactly that feeling of helpless despair. It wasn't the damage, it was just that every succesful hit took away lvl until my guy was dead.
Now, editions, balancing and maybe my own ineptitude aside, lvl draining is rather hard to counteract (mainly because it happens so seldomly that you can hardly be expected to prepare for it). Which ties nicely into my question how we are to handle it and it's consquences.
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2013-09-08, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
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- Norwich, UK
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Allergy advice: posts may contain traces of sarcasm
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2013-09-08, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2013-09-08, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Last edited by DeadMG; 2013-09-08 at 12:03 PM.
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2013-09-09, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
There is also the fact that base damage becomes less important the further you Progress.
Right now Belkar is on par with (even better actually) someone using a longsword and a shield (if Belkar did the same), since other boní like the ones from strg or dex would add up normally. He uses two daggers, so he does even more damage on account of the extra attacks. He might miss more often, but that ist beside the Point for damage purposes, and more important it is not for certain.
Since he is using two daggers, he is losing out on AC if anything.
I neglected size penalties, but I think it's clear that Belkar can do a lot of damage wwith his daggers.
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2013-09-09, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
I remember that Bodhi fight in BGII myself, and the first play through dealing with the vampires was just frightful. Then I wised up and had Anomen prepare negative plane protection in place of the wad of restorations I had been packing. Subsequent runs were a breeze.
Now for some 2e geekery!
Those level drains in 2e were a beast. They were permanent until restored and took massive chunks out of a character's capabilities. Even high level characters could take quite a beating from a pack of wights just due to level drain.
It was bad enough that, when putting together 3e, WotC decided to add a "level drain lite" effect called negative levels. These offer smaller (but still significant) penalties than level drain did, and allow secondary saves before progressing to drained levels. Most attacks and spells inflict negative levels rather than level drain in 3.X, and this is what characters get hit with most often in OotS. It's far more forgiving than a massive level drain, and a little easier to fix.
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2013-09-09, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Actually, the arcane spell Enervation inflicts 1d4 Negative Levels on ranged touch, no save, spell resistance applies.
I think there is some confusion at what a Negative Level actually is. A Negative Level isn't the REMOVAL of a level, it is a cumulative penalty. A negative level gives you -5 max hp, and -1 on all d20 rolls. Your skills, stats, and abilities are all still there, they are just modified. A level 5 wizard with one Negative Level would throw down a 4d6 Fireball and take small penalties. Spellcasters lose one spell slot of their highest spell level (or use per day for spontaneous casters).
Also, the character can make a DC (10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier) Fortitude save after 24 hours to shrug off the effect (usually low 'teens). Failure means the Negative Level becomes "permanant," which only means that it'll stay until it is removed by a Restoration spell, as long as the spell is cast within 1 day/ caster level.
And now you know...the {i}rest{/i} of the story.
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2013-09-09, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
Check the bolded part and/or the description of Enervation; Enervation lasts for a maximum of 15 hours.
Also...Failure means the Negative Level becomes "permanant,"Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-09-09, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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- England
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Re: Lvl Draining (Belkar's and also in general)
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