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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    An archivist would make a nightmarish lich.
    If archivist was one of the options the OP asked us to pick from, I'd've picked him hands down.

    All the versatility of the wizard backed by the religion of the cleric. *shudder*
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Just a note for everyone bringing up Mass Harm:

    Only on the Dread Necro list.

    otherwise: I would argue that Cleric and Wizard are about equal in terms of serving as a base lich class.

    i would then argue that a lich is really only good on one of the quick progression PrCs


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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    I reckon Wizard gains the most from Lichdom out of the 3. For one thing, improving from d4+Con to d12 is certainly a better deal than d8+Con to d12. In fact with a Con bonus of +2 or higher, the Cleric/Druid ends up LOSING HP on average instead.

    Another aspect is immunities. Cleric and Druid have a wide plethora of immunity granting spells. The liches undead immunities do not benefit them as much as it benefits the Wizard (who otherwise has a relatively harder time getting immunity to ability damage/drain, energy drain and death effects).
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Doko, can I sig this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by doko239 View Post
    Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards
    Quote Originally Posted by doko239 View Post
    Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards
    If I'm a monk using lettuce as an Improvised Thrown Weapon, does that make me a salad-tosser ???
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Cranthis View Post
    Wellllll You could always go cleric and wizard. Mystich theurge it up and become a lich.
    You're already losing 3 caster levels for being a Lich IF Buy back is in play... Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot and then reload...

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Clerics are always scariest to me, simply because being a cleric implies that he has backup. Any deity whose dogma is okay with lichdom to begin with is either a bastard or pretty liberal - either way means he'll likely grant the kind of miracles that would screw over the lich's opponents.

    Not many god's actually allow their Clerics to take on Lichdom as an option... God's are cowards like that Vecna knows where your Phylactery is at all times since you hide that thing like a 17 year old high school girl's diary (long story) and Orcus (depending on the rules in play) knows where your Phylactery is as well and again can simply curb stomp you whenever he wants (unless of course you're playing him as he is portrayed in the FC:I i.e. as crap)

    In a 20 level limit world the Lich is at most going to be 17th level so the Sorcerer is weakened by a lack of access to 9th level spells leaving the Druid, Wizard and Cleric. The Druid loses access to Wild Shape shenanigans unless they take Tainted Druid, but if not they are weakened by this leaving the Cleric and the Wizard. The Cleric can be completely dicked out by his/her God (unless of course their God is totally awesome and lets Lichdom fly). Needless to say becoming a Lich is clearly an evil act so the Cleric might have to atone... but can't because you "have" to feel bad about doing it...

    Consistently the Wizard is superior to the Druid, Sorcerer and Cleric due to the fact he doesn't have to bend over backwards to become a Lich

    ...This is of course my perspective on things so eh... take it or leave it If the Cleric can be good aligned and be a Good Lich go for it. Immunity to Turning and a +2 bonus to turning is pretty neat
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-11-16 at 11:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    If archivist was one of the options the OP asked us to pick from, I'd've picked him hands down.

    All the versatility of the wizard backed by the religion of the cleric. *shudder*
    Exactly. And with a dip in clericyou can get rebuke as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    Contingency is like playing chess but you get to make several moves on your turn, several on you opponents turn and you're aloud to rearrange the board when he gets up to go to the bathroom.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Zubrowka74 View Post
    Doko, can I sig this ?
    go for it

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    The Druid loses access to Wild Shape shenanigans unless they take Tainted Druid
    Where does it say that a druid loses access to Wild Shape for being a lich?

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    Where does it say that a druid loses access to Wild Shape for being a lich?
    Small error on my part while checking the Alternate form rules out.

    The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
    which made me think "Neat, the Druid Lich, while in Wild shape has no constitution score", but made me wonder "Would it be undead? Or would it be a special type of Animal?"

    Either way. The Wizard will emerge victorious if it is played at it's highest potential (God forbid the Wizard decides to Plane Shift and then Astral Project. Whatever shall we do?).

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    I was assuming that you were just looking at the actual PHB instead of the SRD. It says that Wild Shape functions as the polymorph spell, which requires a willing living target to work. An errata was released a while back, though, that changed the description to reference the alternate form ability rather than the polymorph spell.
    Also, the Lich entry specifically says that they are able to use polymorph effects on themselves, despite being immune to polymorph.



    Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about what kind of lich is scariest, not which one is most powerful.

    An average party expects a lich to be a wizard or a cleric. They're expecting the lich to be expecting them, and to have spells prepared just to deal with them. They're going to be no more afraid of the lich when they finally meet him than they were when they first set out to destroy him.

    What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).
    Last edited by Vaern; 2012-11-16 at 06:06 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about what kind of lich is scariest, not which one is most powerful.

    An average party expects a lich to be a wizard or a cleric. They're expecting the lich to be expecting them, and to have spells prepared just to deal with them. They're going to be no more afraid of the lich when they finally meet him than they were when they first set out to destroy him.

    What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).
    If it's based on "Scariest" and not who can blow whom out the water fastest Shneeky most definitely got it nixed in the bottom a little while back

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    It actually isn't, but not for the reason you think.

    First off, they start off with a Fear aura at level 5, but it kinda sucks. Then you tack onto that the spell Aura of Terror (using one of several loopholes to Persist it, either NaenHoon or Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician to qualify spell as divine). Now tack on Dread Witch to bypass fear immunity, and boost the fear level up yet another notch, and you've got Panicked. Dreadful Wrath is unnecessary.

    Congratulations, you've beaten Takahashi at his own game. Without needing to expend any actions in combat to do it. As a class feature and a spell obtained from another class feature. And can still cast 9th level spells and have a swarm of disposable minions.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-11-16 at 08:03 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Well, I guess I can't compete against an actual fear effect. I admit defeat. Well played, Shneekey.

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Wizard for Uttercold Assault Necromancer. Try a wall of fire with Lord of the Uttercold applied and suddenly your necromantic army is healing quite a lot of damage each round they're in the wall (due to you being a skeleton and using skeletons) while enemies that come too close are hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    If the wizard is played even half competently then you stand not a chance in hell.

    If the wizard is well played then he can kill you by punching you to death. Why? Because he is immune to death. As in you flat out do not have the capability to kill him regardless of what you do.

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    Wizard for Uttercold Assault Necromancer. Try a wall of fire with Lord of the Uttercold applied and suddenly your necromantic army is healing quite a lot of damage each round they're in the wall (due to you being a skeleton and using skeletons) while enemies that come too close are hurt.

    Booyah!
    Can't druids learn that trick as well? Also archivists? Also Clerics with the fire domain?
    Last edited by LTwerewolf; 2012-11-17 at 08:50 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    Contingency is like playing chess but you get to make several moves on your turn, several on you opponents turn and you're aloud to rearrange the board when he gets up to go to the bathroom.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    Can't druids learn that trick as well? Also archivists? Also Clerics with the fire domain?
    And sorcerers. Don't forget sorcerers.

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    And sorcerers. Don't forget sorcerers.
    But they're the red-headed stepchild of d&d.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    Contingency is like playing chess but you get to make several moves on your turn, several on you opponents turn and you're aloud to rearrange the board when he gets up to go to the bathroom.

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    Default Re: Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by doko239 View Post
    Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards
    It probably needs Able Learner (so only few races can do this) but this build... ROCKS. :D

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