Frenzied Berserker

[Dusk Eclipse]

I enjoy how you've ignored the entire meat of the post, restating something that does not change it at all. Frenzy is not rage, no. They are similar, and yes, I said that it was not rules as written, which you also ignored. I also used the word intended.

Please tell me what are your sources to say that it was intended that a Frenzied Berserker can use Dex Based skill checks? If that particular restriction was omitted from the text, then you might have a claim that it was intended; but as it is, Frenzied Berserkers weren't intended to use those skills in a frenzy.

[DarkestKnight]

I think I remember seeing a collar in BoVD that allowed a chosen person to Dominate the person wearing the collar at will with no save. I think it is costly but it is an absolute way to prevent TPK (or start one depending on the controller i suppose).

[ahenobarbi]

Also a cursed dagger that changes alignement to opposite. Draw it to kill your party, your alignement changes... and maybe you loose FB class features so your frenzy ends this also is DM-dependent though.

[Ginger]

I mentioned marbles because its a non-magic grease.

I think they only work for about 1 round. round 1, i try and charge/move and i fall. Round 2 i get up from fallen - no balance check to stand - Then i make a jump which is a Str check from the standing position. I think with the massive strength i should be able to clear the grease. Also i have taken Extreme Leap so that is an extra 10feet.

[ahenobarbi]

I mentioned marbles because its a non-magic grease.

I think they only work for about 1 round. round 1, i try and charge/move and i fall. Round 2 i get up from fallen - no balance check to stand - Then i make a jump which is a Str check from the standing position. I think with the massive strength i should be able to clear the grease. Also i have taken Extreme Leap so that is an extra 10feet.

So it's 2 rounds. During which other members can spread more marbles

[Ginger]

yeah your right 2 rounds

On round 3 though. There would probably be a leap attack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

FB had best have a source of Flight by around level 12 if he wants to continue being able to affect opponents. And flying negates Grease/marbles...

[golem1972]

Book of Vile Darkness: Fanatic's Collar. 30k gp worth of insurance that the whole party will chip in for.

Not foolproof, but works in most situations, watch out for antimagic.

Anything that stops a charge will hamper the fb and give the party time to calm the fb down.

[ahenobarbi]

FB had best have a source of Flight by around level 12 if he wants to continue being able to affect opponents. And flying negates Grease/marbles...

Just make sure your party can shut down flight easily.

But the reason I didn't play FB is that (if your DM doesn't allow you to willingly fail saves to shut down frenzy) you are walking TPK. Because you need counter for everything that could effectivelly shut you down (or enemies will make you useless).

You could setup something like:
1) Caster A dominates you (you willingly submit).
2) Caster B casts persisted Protection from Evil.
3) You start attacking someone you shouldn't.
4) Caster B uses Celerity (lesser) to dismiss PfE.
5) Caster A uses Celerity (lesser) to get control of you and stop attack.

but it's rather costly and requires constant supervision of 2 casters...

[Kazyan]

FB's deal THOUSANDS of damage a round, with insanely high attack bonuses.

I know that the exact number is absolutely besides the point here, but don't you need Otto the Bugbear levels of ubercharging to hit thousands of damage? How does a generic FB get 1000+?

[Ginger]

FB had best have a source of Flight by around level 12 if he wants to continue being able to affect opponents. And flying negates Grease/marbles...

Well i am way off from 12 right now. I am planning on taking FB at level 10.
I am in no rush to get there.

Items that grant me flying have moved up my priority list now though. I really think that building in weakness is a poor idea for making a "safe" frenzied berserker. not only because alot of the time they are very iffy and depend on allies that might be killed first, but also because they can be exploited by enemies.

This was part of the reason i am asking about the crystal XD which i haven't gotten a concrete answer on yet.

[Ginger]

I know that the exact number is absolutely besides the point here, but don't you need Otto the Bugbear levels of ubercharging to hit thousands of damage? How does a generic FB get 1000+?

Pounce from Spirit lion totem
High strength
Supreme power attack
Headless charge - feat
Leap attack - feat
Valorous weapon

You end up with you full attack +1 dealing (weapon +str + powerattack)x5 for every attack

You get stupid attack damage. this damage is only on a charge.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I know that the exact number is absolutely besides the point here, but don't you need Otto the Bugbear levels of ubercharging to hit thousands of damage? How does a generic FB get 1000+?

Yea, you're looking at (Weapon + Str*1.5 (2h weapon) + BAB) * 5 per swing, and 4x swings even without Haste or other shennanigans.

So let's just start talking about BAB of 20 * 5 * 4 is 400 right there. Base minimum.

Now, if we're talking about a Str of 30 (WAY sub-par, but as an example), then you're looking at something along the lines of 15 *5 * 4, or another 300. That's 700. Honestly, you're probably breaking 1k at this point with all the ways to boost Str, but let's keep it conservative. Then we can go with size-stacking on the weapon itself, so you're probably rollin' something like 6d6 or 21 damage a swing on average or another 400+ damage to crack the 1k mark easily.

Then, of course, we start tacking on things like Haste and Belt of Battle... yea, things get stupid fast.

[Kazyan]

Pounce from Spirit lion totem
High strength
Supreme power attack
Headless charge - feat
Leap attack - feat
Valorous weapon

You end up with you full attack +1 dealing (weapon +str + powerattack)x5 for every attack

You get stupid attack damage. this damage is only on a charge.

At level 20, this is 4 attacks. PA for 20, get +80 dmg per attack. Str 60 = +25 dmg, 2d6+3? base from the weapon. Adds up to 115 avg, x2 from Valorous = 230. x4 if all attacks hit = 920. This is huge, but not thousands.'

Still not seeing it, especially at lower levels.

EDIT: Frenzied Beserker'd. I think my math is bad anyway.

[ahenobarbi]

The frenzy is not described as mind-affecting so the crystal wouldn't work.

Oh. You could carry around a creature that's immune to your attacks. When you run out of enemies you'll keep hitting it for no damage

Yea, you're looking at (Weapon + Str*1.5 (2h weapon) + BAB) * 5 per swing, and 4x swings even without Haste or other shennanigans.

So let's just start talking about BAB of 20 * 5 * 4 is 400 right there. Base minimum.

Now, if we're talking about a Str of 30 (WAY sub-par, but as an example), then you're looking at something along the lines of 15 *5 * 4, or another 300. That's 700. Honestly, you're probably breaking 1k at this point with all the ways to boost Str, but let's keep it conservative. Then we can go with size-stacking on the weapon itself, so you're probably rollin' something like 6d6 or 21 damage a swing on average or another 400+ damage to crack the 1k mark easily.

Then, of course, we start tacking on things like Haste and Belt of Battle... yea, things get stupid fast.

Actually make that 5 attacks because Frezy gives extra attack at highest attack bonus (and it doesn't stack with haste).

[mregecko]

My favorite solution to the Frenzied Berserker problem was listed in these forums...

Suggestion

At the start of the day, cast a Suggestion on the FB to "Fall Asleep" or "Stand still and do nothing until I say", etc... Basically something to render them obsolete. Have them willingly fail the Will Save.

The cool part is that Suggestion has a little known "Trigger" clause, so you can basically trigger your Suggestion to activate on an event (when your hear someone say "Snarfle") etc.

É voila! You have an instant kill-switch for your rogue frenzied berserker, at the low low cost of a 3rd level spell.

-- Mr

[Ginger]

At level 20, this is 4 attacks. PA for 20, get +80 dmg per attack. Str 60 = +25 dmg, 2d6+3? base from the weapon. Adds up to 115 avg, x2 from Valorous = 230. x4 if all attacks hit = 920. This is huge, but not thousands.'

Still not seeing it, especially at lower levels.

EDIT: Frenzied Beserker'd. I think my math is bad anyway.

Ill break my math down

Supreme power attack every 1 to hit adds 4 damage for a 2 handed weapon

so 1 for weapon damage & sub par 30 strength
fb get 1 extra attack on a full round attack.
Shock trooper lets me just take the hit to AC so i make all my attacks.

((1 wp damage + 22 str + 80 Spower atk)*5 charge multiplier) *5 each attack = 2575

This is level 20 though.

[ahenobarbi]

My favorite solution to the Frenzied Berserker problem was listed in these forums...

Suggestion

At the start of the day, cast a Suggestion on the FB to "Fall Asleep" or "Stand still and do nothing until I say", etc... Basically something to render them obsolete. Have them willingly fail the Will Save.

The cool part is that Suggestion has a little known "Trigger" clause, so you can basically trigger your Suggestion to activate on an event (when your hear someone say "Snarfle") etc.

É voila! You have an instant kill-switch for your rogue frenzied berserker, at the low low cost of a 3rd level spell.

-- Mr

That could work too. But you have to be careful. Suggestion to fall asleep won't work (it's not something you can just do). You could suggest to use non-lethal weapon. And be careful with trigger. Because you don't want enemies to be attacked non-lethally. And you don't want trigger to be a standard action (unless you want to burn celerity to use it).

[Wise Green Bean]

I had a thread about this a little while back.

Steadfast determination and a minor optimization will make that an auto-save by level 10ish, except for a natural 1.

The suggestion spell allows for implanted suggestions(look it up, it's there). Meaning that for the occasional natural 1, you can intentionally fail a save for the suggestion spell to go to sleep if you are about to attack friendlies.

The grease spell stops a FB cold, because DEX based checks(aka, balance checks) can't be made while in frenzy. So you fall on your face and flail for the remainder of the frenzy.

You can be the only non-flier in the party. Everyone has items of flight, you just wait for the wizard to give you the spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My favorite solution to the Frenzied Berserker problem was listed in these forums...

Suggestion

At the start of the day, cast a Suggestion on the FB to "Fall Asleep" or "Stand still and do nothing until I say", etc... Basically something to render them obsolete. Have them willingly fail the Will Save.

The cool part is that Suggestion has a little known "Trigger" clause, so you can basically trigger your Suggestion to activate on an event (when your hear someone say "Snarfle") etc.

É voila! You have an instant kill-switch for your rogue frenzied berserker, at the low low cost of a 3rd level spell.

-- Mr

And as was stated, in the Spell Description is this cute little phrase:

"Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

Besides, you're going WELL outside the bounds of what the spell allows. This isn't a sleep spell that can affect any HD monster, this isn't Dominate Monster, this isn't Programmed Amnesia... what you suggest is just plain silly.

[lord_khaine]

I really think FB is a very stupid class, it gives the person who takes it an insane boost in melee power, while making the rest of the party pay the price, by risking getting cleaved down on a bad roll of the dice.

And besides the huge risks of bringing the berserker along for adventuring, then it also seems like people isnt paying much attention to how impossible it gets bringing him into a town, considering how little it would take to set him off on a cleaving spree in the middle of the town market

It gets even worse if the party have enemies who know about them, and might try and set the berserker off on purpose, for example by taking a shot at him while hidden, and then hoping to see the firework.

edit.

Steadfast determination and a minor optimization will make that an auto-save by level 10ish, except for a natural 1.

I think most of us are considering that the willsave would only be failed on a natural one, but i would personaly still considder that to big a risk to lose my char on, just because someone else wants to do damage in the tripple digit.

The suggestion spell allows for implanted suggestions(look it up, it's there). Meaning that for the occasional natural 1, you can intentionally fail a save for the suggestion spell to go to sleep if you are about to attack friendlies.

You cant intentialy fail a save, when you are compelled to attack people to the best of your ability.

[Ginger]

I really think FB is a very stupid class, it gives the person who takes it an insane boost in melee power, while making the rest of the party pay the price, by risking getting cleaved down on a bad roll of the dice.

And besides the huge risks of bringing the berserker along for adventuring, then it also seems like people isnt paying much attention to how impossible it gets bringing him into a town, considering how little it would take to set him off on a cleaving spree in the middle of the town market

It gets even worse if the party have enemies who know about them, and might try and set the berserker off on purpose, for example by taking a shot at him while hidden, and then hoping to see the firework.

I completely agree actually. I sure as hell wouldnt want someone else be one unless i was a wizard or something. This is why if i ever chose to roll one up, i ask all the players and the DM and make sure they know i could accidently murder everyone and get their OK

I always try to build a "Safe" one myself.

[Mari01]

And as was stated, in the Spell Description is this cute little phrase:

"Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

Besides, you're going WELL outside the bounds of what the spell allows. This isn't a sleep spell that can affect any HD monster, this isn't Dominate Monster, this isn't Programmed Amnesia... what you suggest is just plain silly.

Again I agree. Going to sleep isn't something you just DO. Suggestion only works for conscious actions. Lie down, go there, stop them. Going to sleep isn't one of these things.

I don't like frenzied berserker because the better you get, the more lethal you become to your party. Sooner or later, (sooner if you go around actively giving yourself weaknesses), you will fail that save, and someone in the group is going to die.

[Man on Fire]

As I recall, you merely delayed the inevitable, declared that 'it couldn't happen' and ignored the problem. Or you declared you would build in weaknesses to the FB which would enable an opponent with an IQ greater than 6 to shut him down completely.

No. You ignored every argument presented to you, while repeating these two arguments. You never adressed Thayan Knight solution either.

Pounce really has a way of ruining this. Also, reach-stacking. Large size + Spiked Chain (typical weapon loadout for a charge build focused on area-effect destruction) = 20' radius.

As we already estabilished, OP is neither large or using reach weapon.

Also, splitting up the party? Always a BAD idea. If you get out of mutual reach of him, you also get out of mutual support range.

Playing with FB is quite different than playing with other thanks, but it's nothing that you should have a problem with. You can easily split up while being close enough. It requires strategy and thinking, but again, that's what makes this so fun.

Unfortunately, no one knows if the FB is going to try to TPK until it's his turn and he makes or fails his Will save(s). And once he fails that Will save, it's his turn, no one else can do a damn thing.

Also, you're deliberately leaving him open to be neutralized by opponents before he has a chance to act.

That's why in their turn ther players counter FB just in case. Will he make the save - fine. Won't he - fine either.. And

You won't know if you need to do so. And if you go first, then he will naturally attack these non-allies first. However, that also doesn't trigger the will save, because he hasn't run out of valid opponents yet. Delaying tactic, but doesn't solve the problem.

Nope, creatures from bag of tricks aren't vaild opponents, they're harmless. And delaying tactic DOES solve the problem with Frenzied Berserker.

Go ahead and make him worthless against a good chunk of encounters. I'm sure that'll make him feel REALLY valuable.

He cannot do anything agains invisible opponents anyway. We are NOT looking for absolute and complete 100% solution, because there aren't any, we're looking for a set of tactis that will let the party wait out the frenzy, that's pretty much enough.

Not gonna happen. FB's deal THOUSANDS of damage a round, with insanely high attack bonuses. NOTHING is going to be able to 'tank that' for one round. Or even one attack

People say you cannot make useful Samurai, but you did. Bet aking somebody who can hold FB back shouldn't be so hard.

[Darius Kane]

Regarding the "FB is stoopid and a walking TPK" type posts:
Prcs aren't only for PCs, you know...

[ahenobarbi]

Regarding the "FB is stoopid and a walking TPK" type posts:
Prcs aren't only for PCs, you know...

Yes but it's good to know if the PrC is good for PC.

EDIT: And yes, FB is awesome PrC for really troublesome encounter. But must be used responsibly, if PCs don't realize who are they finding it can easily become TPK.

[Sutremaine]

Strictly speaking Righteous Wrath wouldn't work with Frenzy because it isn't a Barbarian's Rag

I'd be very surprised if it did, as the book it's in predates the book Frenzy is in. Also, the Barbarian's Rage doesn't force them to attack allies if all foes are down, so the feat doesn't really do much anyway.

[Deox]

One solution is to just burn your frenzies at the start of each day, while in a forcecage or similar prison.

[Mari01]

No other class makes you worry about your best friend murdering you because he stubbed his toe. You may think it's fun, but no character I've made (after the encounters I mentioned above) would adventure with a frenzied berserker. Everyone gets punished when something goes wrong. No other class is like that.

[lord_khaine]

No. You ignored every argument presented to you, while repeating these two arguments. You never adressed Thayan Knight solution either.

Because its not a solution?
It still requires the red wizard to get an action in before the FB triggers the TPK, and if he is dead, silenced or just slower than the berserker, then he cant do anything to stop him.

As we already estabilished, OP is neither large or using reach weapon.

Unfortunately OP doesnt need either being large or having a reach weapon to cleave though ½ his party on a couple of unlucky rolls.

Playing with FB is quite different than playing with other thanks, but it's nothing that you should have a problem with. You can easily split up while being close enough. It requires strategy and thinking, but again, that's what makes this so fun.

If you are standing within his charge range you might as well stand besides him, and if you are further away getting ambushed will be nasty.

That's why in their turn ther players counter FB just in case. Will he make the save - fine. Won't he - fine either.. And

And this requires someone spending the entire battle doing nothing but holding an action to counter the FB to work proberly, while doing nothing to prevent the FB stepping on a arrow trap and murdering his party.

Nope, creatures from bag of tricks aren't vaild opponents, they're harmless. And delaying tactic DOES solve the problem with Frenzied Berserker.

This i actualy agree with, delaying tactics would be enough.

People say you cannot make useful Samurai, but you did. Bet aking somebody who can hold FB back shouldn't be so hard.

Best i can imagine would be someone with combat reflexes, better reach and a truely insane trip modifier.

One solution is to just burn your frenzies at the start of each day, while in a forcecage or similar prison.

That does kinda beat most of the point around being a FB, as well as require some seriously highlevel magic to pull off.