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  1. Top - End - #61
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Nope, creatures from bag of tricks aren't vaild opponents, they're harmless. And delaying tactic DOES solve the problem with Frenzied Berserker.
    You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either he attacks them as non-allies, and thus doesn't have a Will check to snap out of it because more than allies are left on the field, or he doesn't treat them as valid threats, makes a will check, and if he fails, goes after the party. Pick one.

    He cannot do anything agains invisible opponents anyway. We are NOT looking for absolute and complete 100% solution, because there aren't any, we're looking for a set of tactis that will let the party wait out the frenzy, that's pretty much enough.
    Really? You don't evolve a method of See Invis by mid-levels? How do you deal with invisible opponents? That would be a fatal mistake in most games I play in. Heck, invisible snipers plinking him until he Frenzies would be... detrimental to the party's health.

    People say you cannot make useful Samurai, but you did. Bet aking somebody who can hold FB back shouldn't be so hard.
    Define 'useful'. Takahashi beat a Monk/FotF. That's... not exactly a strong commendation. He is a one-trick pony, that a significantly increasing number of opponents as you level will be immune to. He's, at best, Tier 4. He's a One Trick Pony... with plenty of things out there immune to his one trick.

    Compare with a Dread Necro who can fear lockdown as a passive aura + Aura of Terror spell. And have disposable minions each more powerful in combat than Takahashi is. And who is immune to Takahashi's one trick. And who can still cast 9th level spells. And that's touted as a Tier 3 class.

    Sure, he was a cute trick, but don't mistake him for anything else.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2012-11-15 at 05:02 PM.
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  2. Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    I don't know if this has been suggested before, but maybe you could use a merciful weapon. I don't know if you are allowed to use nonlethal damage when in a frenzy, but a merciful weapon would allow you to attack nonlethaly without reducing your attack bonus, thus enabling you to do so while attacking to your best ability, just like the text demands.

    Also, 1d6 bonus damage on top of that.
    Last edited by Theoboldi; 2012-11-15 at 05:47 PM.
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  3. Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoboldi View Post
    I don't know if this has been suggested before, but maybe you could use a merciful weapon. I don't know if you are allowed to use nonlethal damage when in a frenzy, but a merciful weapon would allow you to attack nonlethaly without reducing your attack bonus, thus enabling you to do so while attacking to your best ability, just like the text demands.

    Also, 1d6 bonus damage on top of that.
    Lots of creatures, notably Undead and Constructs being on the list, are immune to non-lethal damage. Rendering your tank useless against a fairly large percentage of your opponents is not a good idea. Particularly when the best way to handle such opponents is generally with 'hulk smash'.
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  4. Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Lots of creatures, notably Undead and Constructs being on the list, are immune to non-lethal damage. Rendering your tank useless against a fairly large percentage of your opponents is not a good idea. Particularly when the best way to handle such opponents is generally with 'hulk smash'.
    You can carry a backup weapon, though. Even in frenzy, I think an FB should be able to realize what's wrong (to some degree) and whip out their spare smashin' tool.

    It's not a perfect method, but should make do for middling-OP.

  5. Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    As we already estabilished, OP is neither large or using reach weapon.
    I mentioned that i wasnt large or reach using after he posted this....
    ...


    Whatever. I dont consider hindering myself as a viable option. Of all of the built in weakness options, the collar was probably the only one i might implement.

    I think I am going to approach my dm about house ruling frenzy as a mind altering as it is making do things my character wouldn't do normally.
    Last edited by Ginger; 2012-11-15 at 07:48 PM.

  6. Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutremaine View Post
    I'd be very surprised if it did, as the book it's in predates the book Frenzy is in. Also, the Barbarian's Rage doesn't force them to attack allies if all foes are down, so the feat doesn't really do much anyway.
    Righteous Wrath can stop a FB. Rage and frenzy can be active simultaneously and as long as the rage is on, so is righteous Wrath. If the frenzy was activated first (practically a given) then the rage will outlast it.

    This doesn't help the op at all since he's not interested in playing an exalted character though.

    Using the triggered suggestion can work too. The spells duration is effectively all day by mid-level and if the triggered suggestion is "throw your weapon as far as you can, away from me" the FB automatically switches to a much lower, non-lethal damage value since he can't just decide to go and pick his weapon back up before resuming his attack.

    If the other beatstick in the party has the elusive target feat then the FB's major source of damage, power attack, becomes a non-issue as well, dropping him back to just [w]+str*1.5. Combined with the suggestion to throw away his weapon this gets him down to 1d4+str*1.5 non-lethal against another melee pc. I don't see that being difficult to survive.

    On the not-frenzying berserker, a custom item of always on calm emotions wouldn't be at all expensive.

    The slave collar mentioned above has potential though you need to be sure the guy controlling the FB is lower in the initiative.

    Even barring these almost perfect solutions there's also the fact that the party can generally arrange for the FB to be the last one to act in combat, giving him 2 opportunities to save for ending the frenzy before turning on them. Combined with a reroll option the odds of him attacking the party at the end of combat are absolutely miniscule.

    Traps can be a problem, but that's as much the rogue's fault as anyone's. Nevermind the FB having uncanny dodge from his barb levels and traps having low-attack bonus values.

    If the enemy is attacking the FB from hiding that's a DM move, and kind of a nasty thing to do more than once in a great while. Same goes for AoE traps.

    The FB has to be played carefully and responsibly, but that doesn't mean it's unplayable.

    Btw, not pouncing isn't the end of the world. If you can do more than 50 damage on one attack your charge is a save-or-die (with an admittedly low DC) regardless of how much actual damage it does and anything beyond 300 total for a charge is going to automatically kill almost anything in the MM.

    Looking at the numbers in Ginger's post. If he was making a single attack instead of pouncing he'd still be doing over 500 damage on that one attack. Why do you need more than that? Or if you absolutely must pounce, drop some of the charge multipliers. 5 attacks that do 100 damage each is just as good as one attack that does 500; better even since the odds of getting 5 natural 1's in a row are absurdly low.

    The problem isn't so much the FB as the inability to not over-optimize the FB. What in the world do you need 2500+ damage to kill?
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  7. Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Dunno how useful this is now, but generally when I build a FB one of my failsafes is DR. A simple +1LA mineral warrior or quasilycanthrope template is usually enough to stop unwanted instances of Frenzy.

    Granted, it won't stop everything, but it will stop the toe stubbing, random bar fight, kid throwing a rock, ect from making you kill an entire town.

    Also for the RAW pains in the ass: If you say a falling plate bypasses DR since it wasn't an attack...a god wizard will sneak up on you while you are sleeping and PAO you permanently into a Monk.


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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Lots of creatures, notably Undead and Constructs being on the list, are immune to non-lethal damage. Rendering your tank useless against a fairly large percentage of your opponents is not a good idea. Particularly when the best way to handle such opponents is generally with 'hulk smash'.
    Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.

    Of course, this could also end with the entire party unconscious or him still killing one before they can turn him back to nonlethal, but it's still better than everyone dying. It also solves the problem of him starting to kill people inside of towns. He'll still probably knock someone out, but at least he won't kill anyone.

    Edit: If there is a wizard in the party, he could also convinve him to prepare a few celerities to use for speaking the command word in emergencies.
    Last edited by Theoboldi; 2012-11-16 at 07:44 AM.
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  9. Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Does a FB need to perceive a creature to go after it?

    IE, surrounding a FB with a wall of stone. If lacking blindsight or blindsense, the FB would no longer be aware of any of the party members.

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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post

    That does kinda beat most of the point around being a FB, as well as require some seriously highlevel magic to pull off.
    I like Supreme Power Attack. Honestly, the frenzy is just icing.

    Also, fogs aren't high level magics.

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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoboldi View Post
    Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.

    Of course, this could also end with the entire party unconscious or him still killing one before they can turn him back to nonlethal, but it's still better than everyone dying. It also solves the problem of him starting to kill people inside of towns. He'll still probably knock someone out, but at least he won't kill anyone.

    Edit: If there is a wizard in the party, he could also convinve him to prepare a few celerities to use for speaking the command word in emergencies.
    This is what my party did with our FB. Worked like a charm, for the most part, unless you play with house rules that say once you have taken twice your HP in subdual, you actually start taking actual damage.
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  12. Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either he attacks them as non-allies, and thus doesn't have a Will check to snap out of it because more than allies are left on the field, or he doesn't treat them as valid threats, makes a will check, and if he fails, goes after the party. Pick one.
    Sorry, but now I have to question if you know how Frenzy works, because what you describe here sure as hell isn't Frenzy.

    During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the targetís or her own).
    So no, there is nothing that states FB must considers people she attack either non-allies or cannot attack oponents she doesn't consider a threat.

    Also, another thing that needs to be pointed out:

    To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the
    frenzy immediately; failure means it continues
    There is nothing that states FB cannot attempt to end the Frenzy when there are enemies, or those she percives as enemies, around. How about you actually read the rules before telling people how things works?

    Really? You don't evolve a method of See Invis by mid-levels? How do you deal with invisible opponents?
    Wizard/Cleric/thatmagicguy makes them visible or something, bet there is a spell for that.

    That would be a fatal mistake in most games I play in. Heck, invisible snipers plinking him until he Frenzies would be... detrimental to the party's health.
    Except if the party is or can become invisible too. Which was the point I was making and you decided to ignore to complain about things.

    Define 'useful'.
    Can do what he is supposed to do well.

    Takahashi beat a Monk/FotF. That's... not exactly a strong commendation. He is a one-trick pony, that a significantly increasing number of opponents as you level will be immune to. He's, at best, Tier 4. He's a One Trick Pony... with plenty of things out there immune to his one trick.
    Irrevelant, because my point was that you can build tank who can survive FB's attacks until his frenzy runs out, not build tank who knows more tricks than Warblade.

    I mentioned that i wasnt large or reach using after he posted this....
    Yes, but before I posted in response to his post, so I took this into account when writing my response.


    Whatever. I dont consider hindering myself as a viable option. Of all of the built in weakness options, the collar was probably the only one i might implement.
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    Last edited by Man on Fire; 2012-11-16 at 12:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Using the triggered suggestion can work too. The spells duration is effectively all day by mid-level and if the triggered suggestion is "throw your weapon as far as you can, away from me" the FB automatically switches to a much lower, non-lethal damage value since he can't just decide to go and pick his weapon back up before resuming his attack.
    I cant see how throwing your weapon away in the middle of a deadly battle would count as a "reasonable" suggestion?

    On the not-frenzying berserker, a custom item of always on calm emotions wouldn't be at all expensive.
    Yeah, because the custom magic item rules are not easily abused or mostly a guideline at all

    Even barring these almost perfect solutions there's also the fact that the party can generally arrange for the FB to be the last one to act in combat, giving him 2 opportunities to save for ending the frenzy before turning on them. Combined with a reroll option the odds of him attacking the party at the end of combat are absolutely miniscule.
    It doesnt matter when the FB has his action, as long as the enemy can manage to die or disapear just before the FB's turn, then there is potential for dead people.
    And where would you get the reroll option from?

    Traps can be a problem, but that's as much the rogue's fault as anyone's. Nevermind the FB having uncanny dodge from his barb levels and traps having low-attack bonus values.
    And FB is rarely known for having good AC, not to mention how this wont matter against a trap that targets a save.

    If the enemy is attacking the FB from hiding that's a DM move, and kind of a nasty thing to do more than once in a great while. Same goes for AoE traps.
    Well, if the party has smart enemies it would be strange for them to not exploit their biggest weakpoint.

    Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.
    Im pretty sure you need to hold the item to use its command word activation.

    Does a FB need to perceive a creature to go after it?

    IE, surrounding a FB with a wall of stone. If lacking blindsight or blindsense, the FB would no longer be aware of any of the party members.
    The problem isnt finding an action to stop the FB from murdering you, the problem lies in being able to take it before he murder you.

    I like Supreme Power Attack. Honestly, the frenzy is just icing.

    Also, fogs aren't high level magics.
    Well, i would say your cake has a unhealthy level of icing on it then.

    As for fogs, unfortunately they are also not safe to let the berserker burn off his rage inside.
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Have everyone make a bluff check and feign death. Can be considered a check that requires patience or concentration, thus autofail on the sense motive.

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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    So no, there is nothing that states FB must considers people she attack either non-allies or cannot attack oponents she doesn't consider a threat.
    Yo, you missed something.
    During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the targetís or her own).

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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Yo, you missed something.
    Consider the fact that the part when FB starts attacking the players is in the phase where she must attack every nearest creature.

    Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature
    When FB runs out of actual enemies, everybody is her enemy.

    Also, no matter what it still doesnt change the fact that FB can attempt to end Frenzy whenever they want, not when there are not foes arround. So either way Sheeky's argument is still invaild.

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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Im pretty sure you need to hold the item to use its command word activation.
    As far as I know, that is stated nowhere in the rules. You only need to know the command word. Correct me if I'm wrong, but please give me the text passage where it says you need to hold the weapon.
    Last edited by Theoboldi; 2012-11-16 at 07:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    IHS to turn off grease.

    Silly, but I felt it had to be mentioned.

    I have a paladin that could probably tank the Berserker, at least long enough for someone to have whatever fail-safe go off. his ac is mid 60's at level 14, looks to cap around 78.
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    Default Re: Frenzied Berserker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
    I have a question. If i threw a Crystal of Mind Cloaking in some armor. Would you allow the bonus to affect the will saves to exit or prevent frenzy?

    I guess this would be more of a house rule as it doesn't say mind effecting anywhere in the frenzied description.

    Would you considered a non-voluntary frenzy a mind-altering affect even though it is self inflicted?

    I guess i am asking "Can a case be made?"
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