What are the Planeswalkers?

[F0X7713]

Recently someone asked about the Fellowship from LoTR and it was such a great discussion with my friends. Most were astonished how much Gandalf is comparable to a Ranger, others went into a long discussion about it.

Which then begged the question, what about other fantasy characters?

So, I'm wondering everyone's opinion on what the first 5 planeswalkers from Magic the Gathering, Chandra Nalar, Jace Beleran, Garruk Wildhunter, Lilliana Vessel, and Ajani Goldmane.

Granted, Magic is no where near as popular as Lord of the Rings, but I thought it would be a good discussion regardless. Any thoughts and opinions would be great!!

[LeshLush]

Planeswalkers are so powerful within the Mt:G lore, I'd say we pretty much have to go with Tier Ones for everybody. Chandra's an evoker, Jace is an enchanter, and Lilliana is a necromancer. The other two don't really work as wizards, but I'd peg Garruk for a Druid and Ajani for a cleric.

Actually, Chandra may not be a wizard. She might be a mailman-style sorcerer.

[Psyren]

The simplest answer is that they are high-level spellcasters and gishes. Perhaps with some form of template that unifies them and grants them the ability to planehop.

To define them in other systems, we have to nail down what they have in common. They all share certain attributes, such as "can cast spells" and "can travel to other planes." I don't have any of the novels though, so it's hard for me to pin down much beyond that; perhaps some folks from the M:TG thread will pop in to further discuss.

Also, I see Jace as more a Diviner than Enchanter if we were going to try to define them that narrowly.

[NamelessNPC]

Tezzeret is an artificer.

[Weezer]

Recently someone asked about the Fellowship from LoTR and it was such a great discussion with my friends. Most were astonished how much Gandalf is comparable to a Ranger, others went into a long discussion about it.

Which then begged the question, what about other fantasy characters?

So, I'm wondering everyone's opinion on what the first 5 planeswalkers from Magic the Gathering, Chandra Nalar, Jace Beleran, Garruk Wildhunter, Lilliana Vessel, and Ajani Goldmane.

Granted, Magic is no where near as popular as Lord of the Rings, but I thought it would be a good discussion regardless. Any thoughts and opinions would be great!!

So, I'm going to be pedantic and point out that begs the question is not synonymous with raises the question. It is a formal fallacy where the conclusion is assumed in the proposition.

[Tylorious]

So, I'm going to be pedantic and point out that begs the question is not synonymous with raises the question. It is a formal fallacy where the conclusion is assumed in the proposition.

ummmmm.....what?

[RFLS]

ummmmm.....what?

Begging the question means, roughly, asking a question in which the answer to the question you have just asked is implied within the question.

[jindra34]

So, I'm wondering everyone's opinion on what the first 5 planeswalkers from Magic the Gathering, Chandra Nalar, Jace Beleran, Garruk Wildhunter, Lilliana Vessel, and Ajani Goldmane.

Quickish point, those are the first of the new Planeswalkers. And for the most part they would be around level 17-20 casters. The old plainslakers like Teferi, Freylise, Serra and Urza? They'd go way up into epics.

[Tylorious]

Begging the question means, roughly, asking a question in which the answer to the question you have just asked is implied within the question.

Thank you!

[DarkestKnight]

Quickish point, those are the first of the new Planeswalkers. And for the most part they would be around level 17-20 casters. The old plainslakers like Teferi, Freylise, Serra and Urza? They'd go way up into epics.

to be fair Urza was probably way past epic when he died. Dude had powerstones as eyes.

Old bolas was a god before he got stripped of his power. New Bolas and Karn are probably Deity level 0 characters.

[jindra34]

to be fair Urza was probably way past epic when he died. Dude had powerstones as eyes.

He obliterated a continent before he was a Planeswalker, that kinda sets a standard of power there. And Freyalise brought the continent back. And Teferi did the whole moving of landmasses out of time.

Old bolas was a god before he got stripped of his power. New Bolas and Karn are probably Deity level 0 characters.

At least. Most of the old ones probably have some deific ranks.

[F0X7713]

First off, forgive me for my opening fallacy.

Also, great discussion so far! I totally agree that Jace would be a Diviner for sure. The first 5 are probably pretty easy to pin like you all said.

Now, what about someone like Koth the Hammer, Gideon Jura, Elspeth, or even Sorin Markov? These characters are so much different, I have a much harder time figuring out what class they would be.

[Saidoro]

He obliterated a continent before he was a Planeswalker, that kinda sets a standard of power there. And Freyalise brought the continent back. And Teferi did the whole moving of landmasses out of time.

All duplicatable with the epic magic system, no need for any of them to be higher than level 24 or so. Teleport through Time and Genesis are 9th level spells, there's no reason they couldn't be duplicated on a grander scale fairly early on with a bit of DC mitigation.

The newer ones are probably a bit lower leveled, somewhere in the 8-20 range varying by scene. Remember that DnD has a completely schizo power level, many things in it are far easier than they are in most fiction(flying, teleporting, enlarge person) and others are far harder(Mindrape, anything blasting related, Binding type magic).

[Eugenides]

The real question: What about Yawgmoth?

[jindra34]

The real question: What about Yawgmoth?

Full fledged god of death, corruption, and maybe artifice.

[Eugenides]

Full fledged god of death, corruption, and maybe artifice.

You forget that he started out as a healer.

[jindra34]

You forget that he started out as a healer.

Ages ago yes. Even when he was first exiled he that really wasn't a good description of him though.

[Acanous]

Urza ight just be a lv 20 Artificer. Dude had a lot of free time and access to TO.

[bobthe6th]

always wondered if it would be worth reading through the MT: G books, as books based around a game tend to be bad... though I wonder if it wasn't the reverse.

Also, If I recall some flavor text(great source there...) Urza had a ton of minions... so maybe leadership?

edit: also, the problem with using D&D as a yard stick is the scaling. At the high end you have stuff that gods would be doing(hell, before epic). At the low end being killed by a cat.

So, you really need to figure what spells they are using... or what level you would put those spells at.

[Eugenides]

always wondered if it would be worth reading through the MT: G books, as books based around a game tend to be bad... though I wonder if it wasn't the reverse.

Also, If I recall some flavor text(great source there...) Urza had a ton of minions... so maybe leadership?

edit: also, the problem with using D&D as a yard stick is the scaling. At the high end you have stuff that gods would be doing(hell, before epic). At the low end being killed by a cat.

So, you really need to figure what spells they are using... or what level you would put those spells at.

I seem to recall the books being quite good.

[jindra34]

edit: also, the problem with using D&D as a yard stick is the scaling. At the high end you have stuff that gods would be doing(hell, before epic). At the low end being killed by a cat.

So, you really need to figure what spells they are using... or what level you would put those spells at.

For most of the new ones the notable ability is to essentially cast Planeshift with the accuracy of Gate.

For the old ones, they could cast spells on a continental scale or better (Serra essentially Dimension Locked an entire plane, and had Urza and Mishra not messed it up it would have lasted forever).

[Alleran]

For most of the new ones the notable ability is to essentially cast Planeshift with the accuracy of Gate.

Interestingly, the Nether Scroll Planar Mechanus chapter:

- Plane Shift 1/day (can planeswalk - not 100% accuracy, but it doesn't seem to be that way in any case in the Neowalker novels).
- Immunity to hostile or debilitating planar effects (survive in the Blind Eternities).

Sounds roughly approximate to a Planeswalker to me. At most, they'd just have a template with Plane Shift (or Greater Plane Shift) as a spell-like ability, and something that prevents them from dying in the Blind Eternities. Since they seem to spontaneously cast spells that they know from personal "mana stores" I'd peg them as Sorcerers, and theme their Spells Known around their specialties. Jace has enchantment spells (if he's 18th level or higher, which is quite possible, he likely has Mindrape), Chandra has evocation (lots and lots of fire, fire admixturing, and so on), Liliana has necromancy. Ajani might actually be a favoured soul drawing on the Druid spell list. Tezzeret is definitely an Artificer. Sorin is probably a Fighter/Sorcerer [Necromancy focus] with Eldritch Knight levels and the Vampire + Vampire Lord templates. Elspeth feels like a paladin.

Nicol Bolas would be an Advanced Colossal Great Wyrm Black Dragon Sorcerer 20 with Divine Rank 0. Or something ridiculous like that.