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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    I'm just gonna patent the letters "P," "A," "T," "E," and "N." Then I'll win!
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    I'm just gonna patent the letters "P," "A," "T," "E," and "N." Then I'll win!
    Nah, you'll lose out to the cave man that holds the patent on "systems of communication whereby an implement is used to create symbols that convey sound or meaning."
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Nah, you'll lose out to the cave man that holds the patent on "systems of communication whereby an implement is used to create symbols that convey sound or meaning."
    Well then I'll just patent the part of the human brain designed for language and communication. Then I'll really win!
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    this is almost as bad as the guy who patented the stick as a method to exercise dogs...
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by thubby View Post
    im wondering if maybe its the shape combined with the size ratio.
    i.e. you can't make something that is the size and shape of an ipad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Shhh, stop being rational, you'll ruin people's plans to take over the casinos.
    Rational?

    I'm sorry, I really don't see how 16:10 horizontal ratio is identical to 3:4 vertical. Can someone enlighten me?

    They are so different that Apple had to defiantly photoshop both tablets and phones made by Samsung in order to make them similar to Apple products, including outright removal of Samsung's horizontal logo (and, as you can see on the pic, they replaced Samsung's main UI with widgets with alternative vertical UI in another attempt to make it more similar to iPad) - and this somehow didn't caused Apple attempt to be immediately thrown out of the court and punitive damages slapped on them, it won them the case, in fact.

    Maybe I'm just not rational, but if it's the case I'm not going to feel sorry for long.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Maybe I'm just not rational[...]
    ...maybe you're speaking Trixiese?

    More seriously, why is it so important? Okay, this strange and moderately bad thing has happened, but, is focusing on it intently worth our time? Is there some lesson to be learned here about the quality, or lack there of, in the judicial persons and process that allowed the patent?

    I don't mean to be rude or offensive. I...just want to ask the question. "Can we make a difference? If not, is thinking about these events the best use of our time?"

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Why bother?

    Maybe disliking Apple is my hobby, you know.

    But seriously, one and only thing stopping companies from engaging in dubious and unethical behaviour is potential customers hearing about it and reacting to these. Maybe posting this on the forum won't change much, as you say...

    But not posting it is indifference that won't solve anything, only will make matters worse. Maybe, just maybe, a lot of people pointing out to others that it is in our best interest to see world where people fight with inventions, not with troll lawsuits, is in out best interest.

    Yes, pretty stupid hope, I know.

    Otherwise, we will wake up in a world where we don't have choice, because big companies with troll patents can kick out any innovative startup out of business. And you know what? I actually saw such world. Up until 1989, my area of the world had only one brand of everything on the shelves, with competition being officially forbidden. Guess how cool these days were for potential customers?

    One example - why sell chocolade bars, when you can have similar profit selling chocolate-like product made from margarine? I see Apple going in pretty much the same way (only with computers) with all speed they can muster, and I don't care for reliving the experience, TYVM.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    this is almost as bad as the guy who patented the stick as a method to exercise dogs...
    Yeah, I know. That guy totally forgot that wood already had a patent so he couldn't do that. Come on people! You got to think these things through1
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    I'd like to be serious for a second. Thubby was being rational because that's the way the law works. The governments of most nations of the world have given them the right to sue other people that made designs similar to their designs.

    Those same governments put a system in place to protect people's inventions and industrial designs and they made part of that system work by awarding legal rights and monopolies to people that file first unless someone else can show evidence that the invention or design isn't really new.

    So, yeah, Apple got some pretty ridiculous-looking design patents. But a lot of lawyers got paid a lot of money to come up with any evidence that someone else had made similar designs. And they failed. If you think that's messed up you either need to argue that the whole system is messed up, or that somewhere along the way some people made really serious mistakes (judges, lawyers, patent examiners, all of the above).

    If you don't think anyone messed up and you don't think the system is wrong, I don't get how you can argue that Apple is being bad.
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    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    If you don't think anyone messed up and you don't think the system is wrong, I don't get how you can argue that Apple is being bad.
    I happen to believe both are true- the system is designed to grant and protect incorrect patents, and the process of patent litigation allows for *staggering* amounts of both malfeasance and simple human error that grants such patents a value ridiculously greater than they could possibly truly be worth. I have absolutely no problem saying Apple is Doing It Wrong, along with nearly every other part of the patent system.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Maybe disliking Apple is my hobby, you know.
    [...]
    I see Apple going in pretty much the same way (only with computers) with all speed they can muster, and I don't care for reliving the experience, TYVM.
    Ah. I see. Maybe we should share notes. I don't really like the Apple legacy either.

    If it'll put your mind at ease, I probably won't be buying any technology from that company.

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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    The view that such as thing as these patents is necessary is moronic.
    A patent on a decorative design such as this is pointless, it would be like patenting a painting. in a similar note; would not patents like this encourage such idiocy as the patents on parts of the human genome!? Do humans truly wish to live in a world ruled by tyrants, and live without thinking as human sheep?
    Order needs chaos to exist properly, some patents might prove to do some good some day, but their existence encourages many more people with dishonorable intents to create patents such as the ones this thread is about.
    Last edited by Togath; 2012-11-17 at 09:36 PM.
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    I happen to believe both are true- the system is designed to grant and protect incorrect patents, and the process of patent litigation allows for *staggering* amounts of both malfeasance and simple human error that grants such patents a value ridiculously greater than they could possibly truly be worth. I have absolutely no problem saying Apple is Doing It Wrong, along with nearly every other part of the patent system.
    Well, that's a totally fair stance. I think there is a lot of theoretical opposition and "sky if falling" fears from people that are invested in the continuation of the patent system, but if you got over that, you and I would agree that the whole system likely needs an overhaul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togath View Post
    The view that such as thing as these patents is necessary is moronic.
    A patent on a decorative design such as this is pointless, it would be like patenting a painting. in a similar note; would not patents like this encourage such idiocy as the patents on parts of the human genome!? Do humans truly wish to live in a world ruled by tyrants, and live without thinking as human sheep?
    Order needs chaos to exist properly, some patents might prove to do some good some day, but their existence encourages many more people with dishonorable intents to create patents such as the ones this thread is about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Goofy patents; the "frivolous lawsuits" of the 2010s. Come 2018 and people will be sick of talking about it. You heard it here first, guys.

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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by AllIHaveIsCrunk View Post
    Goofy patents; the "frivolous lawsuits" of the 2010s. Come 2018 and people will be sick of talking about it. You heard it here first, guys.
    ah, good point, with luck it'll end up like that
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    As far as I'm aware, the US patent office is basically sitting at the bottom of a dogpile and has no hope in hell of actually inspecting a patent to verify that it's legitimate. It's basically assumed that that's acceptable because the courts (outside of Texas) will scrutinise a patent properly if it's ever used.

    That said, large and reputable business companies generally have much better things to do with their time than the patent trolls.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2012-11-18 at 06:15 AM.
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Considering that Apple made the argument that "tap to unlock" is a "slide to unlock" with a slide length of zero, I think the problem is not the lawyers failing to find evidence of a design feature existing prior to Apple's patent, but that Apple was able to successfully litigate based upon a patent that is too broad to be meaningful. It's arguable whose fault that is, but the point is less about Apple creating the design than it is the design patented being too generic to be reasonably enforced, yet being enforced nonetheless.

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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skami Pilno View Post
    Forget the RPGs, you should sue the casinos! They've been making TONS OF MONEY off of your patent for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!!! Also, I own the copyright to that idea, so if you do sue the casinos for infringing on your patent, you have violated my IP and I expect compensation.

    All contents of this post are copyrighted and not to be reproduced without express written consent as defined in form 246-12f, to be filled out and submitted in sextuplicate at least 6 weeks prior to the date requested for reproduction of the text. A 3 to 6 week turnaround should be expected. Also, the shape of this post is patented.
    Hey, if it gets me a cut of casino profits and RPG money, I'll gladly compensate.
    While we are at it, we should sue for emotional trauma caused by the very idea that someone else was using those shapes without our permission or knowledge.
    I feel violated knowing that my dice were in the hands of total strangers, being thrown around on tables or in randomizers or in cups. Ugh. How terrible.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2012-11-19 at 11:48 AM.
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    I've decided that I need to patent innovation.
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    I've decided that I need to patent innovation.
    I need to litigate your particular innovation as opposed to iterate on it further.

    I need to place a patent on patenting things. Somehow this will solve all problems!
    Last edited by Karoht; 2012-11-19 at 01:11 PM.
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    U.S Patent law scares me.

    As far as I'm aware though, we still have specific legislation over here that actually stops insane American copyright, corporate and patent law being argued in inter-jurisdictional disputes. I'm running off of possibly outdated hearsay on that one though - Private International Law isn't really my thing

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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    I need to place a patent on patenting things. Somehow this will solve all problems!
    I hate to break it to you, but that one's already been filed.
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    Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Society has clearly failed us...
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I hate to break it to you, but that one's already been filed.
    Gosh darnit.
    Hmmmm.
    Yeah, that settles it. Don't wanna live on this planet anymore.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2012-11-20 at 12:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elemental View Post
    Society has clearly failed us...
    Yes, yes it has.

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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Those same governments put a system in place to protect people's inventions and industrial designs and they made part of that system work by awarding legal rights and monopolies to people that file first unless someone else can show evidence that the invention or design isn't really new.
    But it's backwards. The system is supposed to protect inventions - good. But now, the system is really loose on what you could patent and burden of proof you did not infringe lies on the accused. It's a bit as if we had presumption of guild and the prosecution could give anything as evidence, no matter how dumb. The burden on proof should rely on accusing party.

    So, yeah, Apple got some pretty ridiculous-looking design patents. But a lot of lawyers got paid a lot of money to come up with any evidence that someone else had made similar designs. And they failed. If you think that's messed up you either need to argue that the whole system is messed up, or that somewhere along the way some people made really serious mistakes (judges, lawyers, patent examiners, all of the above).
    Why it needs to be binary?

    Why I can't say system is theoretically good, and people work as good as they can, but it is the way people are picked for it that skews things?

    Leaving for a second concept of jury, which is IMHO ridiculously flawed (why 12 random people are better in deciding the case than a judge that had to work his ass off to get a difficult degree - why they are even needed?) the problem lies in how quickly technology base grows and diversifies.

    Consider, for example, this photo. We touched the matter of Samsung pad on it being false. Both me and you can grasp the concept - Photoshop is nothing new to us. But, both judge and jury who doesn't see shopped photos daily might greatly overestimate how hard it is to doctor such picture and treat it as a proof, even subconsciously. Someone who see, though, can look at iPad photo to the left, notice faux glare (as this photo was probably pulled from iStore), then conclude it's doctored as thoroughly (albeit for marketing reasons) as Samsung.

    In short, neither device is "real", both are manipulated images. It should be immediately rejected out of hand as proof of anything - but how many judges know this? How many juries? Even if they do, what abound finance cases? Medicine? Etc? These people try to do well, but the truth is, they're more and more under-qualified for the job, and even if system was perfect, it would warp it. And so it was accepted as damning proof.

    If you don't think anyone messed up and you don't think the system is wrong, I don't get how you can argue that Apple is being bad.
    This is how. Patents means money. Big corporations have a lot more money than patent tribunals or courthouses... Then why not throw a few thousands of patents at the wall, see what sticks, and threaten others with your newly gained nuclear weapons? Once patent sticks, it's a threat, even if it would be easy to demolish it court battle might cost so much it's easier to pay... And that's why in 2011 40% of lawsuits were troll ones, plus probably several times that in victims settling without going to trial. This rampant monetization of patents is corroding the economy, even if system was good.

    Let's look at this - rapid patentization of competition is threatening to destroy stock market exchange in USA. Another might cause net encryption illegal without paying - meaning, someone might be conceivably able to tax the entire internet and a big chunk of world economy alongside it. Do you think this is normal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Togath View Post
    Order needs chaos to exist properly, some patents might prove to do some good some day, but their existence encourages many more people with dishonorable intents to create patents such as the ones this thread is about.
    Sad thing is, patents are needed. But, IMHO, only patents for true innovations, not a few ambiguously worded sentences that might be used in plain violation of their spirit to extract revenue and kill innovation.
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    Default Re: So, Apparently Apple Patented Square?

    ...please be careful, Trixie. I, at least, wouldn't want to see you eject a spring.

    Spinning one's wheels builds unreleased stress.

    Obviously, I'm not going to argue against the above points. Most are correct from an ethical or philosophical perspective. But I'd like to ask a question. "What can we do to improve the situation?"

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    Default Re: So, Apparently Apple Patented Square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    ...please be careful, Trixie. I, at least, wouldn't want to see you eject a spring.

    Spinning one's wheels builds unreleased stress.

    Obviously, I'm not going to argue against the above points. Most are correct from an ethical or philosophical perspective. But I'd like to ask a question. "What can we do to improve the situation?"
    We band together as a small group of heroes to save the world and bring down crazy corporations RPG style.
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    Default Re: So, apparently Apple patented square?

    Quote Originally Posted by Story Time View Post
    But I'd like to ask a question. "What can we do to improve the situation?"
    This is my question as well. Some people say throw out the whole system. I don't agree with that one. Since Trixie says it's theoretically good, I'm guessing we agree there.

    I've heard a lot of other proposals. Some people suggest that patents should only be for a finished invention, meaning the actual physical thing (or computer program or production process) that you can show someone. Anything else that's similar wouldn't be protected.

    Some people think they should just be more strict: patents are supposed to only come out for novel stuff and if the invention is "obvious" then it's not supposed to get a patent. Right now "obvious" only means that two or more older things could be combined to get the new thing and there was some reason to think to put those things together. But it could mean what we normally think the word "obvious" means and then we could say that rectangles with rounded corners are obvious.

    There are also proposals for changes to how patents are read or what evidence is accepted in trials, as both of those are really strict right now.


    It's really hard though because some industries that depend on patents are so big. Imagine you were the one that had to make the call on sweeping changes, and you realized that if you make a big mistake, maybe you ruin a $100 billion industry. It's really scary.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-21 at 01:48 AM.
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