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    Question Optimize Monk

    I am having problems finding feats or other things to maximize my human monk. I have of corse Found supirior unarmed strike, Improved Natural Attack . but i need some other things to push it over the top. but sadly i am not good at Optimizing and frankly don't have the time. can i get some help?

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Step 1. Don't be Monk for anything more than 2 levels.

    Step 2. See Step 1.

    ..........

    What happened was that WotC really dropped the ball when they made the Monk. So much that they wrote several ways of doing things that can be considered 'Monk v.2.0'. Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

    1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the character class, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

    2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too.

    3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps--, so you can take it or not as you want. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun I think), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Compendium Volume 1). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

    4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

    5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape (like pearl of speech, magic item compendium), and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on after you shape, etc.).

    Note: NEVER TAKE VOW OF POVERTY.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-17 at 04:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Zequen View Post
    I am having problems finding feats or other things to maximize my human monk. I have of corse Found supirior unarmed strike, Improved Natural Attack . but i need some other things to push it over the top. but sadly i am not good at Optimizing and frankly don't have the time. can i get some help?
    The first rule of optimizing the Monk is to play a Swordsage.

    After that... Well it really comes down to being str focus and "dipping" monk and/or going into 1 or more PrCs .

    In all honesty it is just easier (and less expensive) to go into Swordsage from Tome of Battle.

    Edit: See... Swordsage is so awesome that it used to be called "Ninja'ed" and now it is called "Swordsaged".
    Last edited by TopCheese; 2012-11-16 at 05:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Are you married to the idea of Monk class itself? (Or, more specifically, are you married to the idea of levels 3-18 of the Monk class itself?)

    And what sources are available? The Monk's best support comes from weird sources like obscure Dragon Magazine issues, web enhancements to setting-specific splatbooks, books largely written for NPC villains and so on.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    The Martial Monk get's all of the Fighter Bonus feats added as options for their feats. No requirement Rolibar's Gambit etc.
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    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    The Martial Monk get's all of the Fighter Bonus feats added as options for their feats. No requirement Rolibar's Gambit etc.
    I'm not sure giving anyone anything from the fighter is optimizing.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    I'm not sure giving anyone anything from the fighter is optimizing.....
    Yeah, except it's optimized relative to a monk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    I'm not sure giving anyone anything from the fighter is optimizing.....
    Still. Two levels of monk gives you free Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) and Weapon Supremacy (Unarmed Strike).

    Of course, that is so obviously against the intent (no, Snowbluff, I'm not going to listen to any argument in favor of it being a stealth buff) that the DM will just say "no".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Step 1. Don't be Monk for anything more than 2 levels.
    Step 2: Disregard Step 1.

    Okay, here is some advice:

    - Take a template to make yourself Large. There are two good templates for that, costing you only +1 LA each - Half-Ogre and even better Half-minotaur (if you take latter consider taking Yuan-Ti Broodguard template at LA 0, which gets you qualified for Multiattack. Broodguard generally is fun thing, giving you Rage 1/day, every Monk's wet dream, which also allows you to take Extra Rage and then go into certain PrC otherwise closed for Monks)

    - if you don't go into Enlighted Fist, Sacred Fist or Psionic Fist (and each of these is awesome in it's own way), take Fist of The Forest - it's only 3 levels and it's wonderful, giving you your own variation of rage, increased unarmed Strike, Constitution to AC and other things. Also, if you have 4 Monk levels, you get alternate Untamed Strike, which allows you to punch incoropteral creatures.

    Wizard: Stand aside, only a master of magic can defeat the Spectre of...
    <You punch the Spectre in the face>
    Wizard:...Musashi, did I told you how much I hate you today?

    - Remember to have good equipment. Monk's Belt is your friend, so is Periapt of Wisdom, Amulet of Health, Belt of Giant's Strength and Amulet of Natural Armor. May require crafting items combinign things for one slot.

    - You may think of changing race. Humans are cool, but Water orc is pretty good for Monks in his own right. Or...

    - Half-Orc has a little nice thing called Half-Orc Paragon. Which can give you Rage 1/day. With this, Broodguard template or abbnadonnig your monk after few levels for Barbarian you can get into Bear Warrior. Half-Orc Paragon 3/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 3 + Bear Warrior mixed with Warshaper = KUNG FU BEAR!
    Or replace Paragon with barbarian (only you take him after Monk) and take some more levels = even more pissed off Kung Fu Bear.
    Or Broodguard Monk 4/ Fist of the Forest 3 if you want to avoid those combinations (allows for more free levels to play with Mixing Bear Warrior and Warshaper)

    - Kensai fix a lot of Monk problems. Try to get into it. You may even try combining it with Vow of Poverty, you can get basically all weapon enchancments you'll ever want or need.

    - One issue of Dragon magazine has feat that allows to tie Paladin's Charisma-Based abilities to Wisdom. Take it and 2 levels of Paladin and you won't fail a save until it's natural 1. Later there is Argent Fist PrC clearly intended for Monk/Paladin multiclassing or other PrC for both (Kensai comes to mind)

    - Tashhalatora was mentioned, but I personally think that Psychic Warrior mix is just too easy and really more a build for PsyWar with Monk dip. Try some other build with it, to quote somebody who knows more about it than me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar
    Monk6/WarMind10 is actually a decent build with Tash. Expansion, Scorpions Grasp, and a War Mind's ability to hit squares rather than people means you can grab a bunch of people, take the -20 to hold them in your off hand, and then attack all of them at once with each hit. Think of it like you got 2 coconuts and you are banging them together.

    So is Monk 5/PsychicAssassin10. Mind Cripple + Flurry of Blows results in a lot of really dumb people really quick. Compression + Confound the Big Folk means you can stab people in the soles of their feet and make them dumb.
    - if you preffer Psionic Fist over Tash, like I do, try this: Monk 6/Drunken Master 2/Psionic Fist 10/ Warshaper 2. Or, how they call it, Ultimate Monk. There is however one thing you need to consider first. Strenght of this build is based on Combining Expansion and Shapechange to turn youself into enlarged version of powerful creature. the rules for those two power are written in a way that is abigious if that's legal (Shapechange doesn't specify if you count as enlarged if you change into larger creature or if your base size changes for the duration of shapechange) so remember to run this with your DM first.

    - Probably this is also possible with Enlighted and/or Sacred Fist but I haven't seen builds for that.

    - Here is a list of Monk PrCs, try to find something for you there.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Step 2: Disregard Step 1.

    Okay, here is some advice:

    - Take a template to make yourself Large. There are two good templates for that, costing you only +1 LA each - Half-Ogre and even better Half-minotaur (if you take latter consider taking Yuan-Ti Broodguard template at LA 0, which gets you qualified for Multiattack. Broodguard generally is fun thing, giving you Rage 1/day, every Monk's wet dream, which also allows you to take Extra Rage and then go into certain PrC otherwise closed for Monks)

    - if you don't go into Enlighted Fist, Sacred Fist or Psionic Fist (and each of these is awesome in it's own way), take Fist of The Forest - it's only 3 levels and it's wonderful, giving you your own variation of rage, increased unarmed Strike, Constitution to AC and other things. Also, if you have 4 Monk levels, you get alternate Untamed Strike, which allows you to punch incoropteral creatures.

    Wizard: Stand aside, only a master of magic can defeat the Spectre of...
    <You punch the Spectre in the face>
    Wizard:...Musashi, did I told you how much I hate you today?

    - Remember to have good equipment. Monk's Belt is your friend, so is Periapt of Wisdom, Amulet of Health, Belt of Giant's Strength and Amulet of Natural Armor. May require crafting items combinign things for one slot.

    - You may think of changing race. Humans are cool, but Water orc is pretty good for Monks in his own right. Or...

    - Half-Orc has a little nice thing called Half-Orc Paragon. Which can give you Rage 1/day. With this, Broodguard template or abbnadonnig your monk after few levels for Barbarian you can get into Bear Warrior. Half-Orc Paragon 3/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 3 + Bear Warrior mixed with Warshaper = KUNG FU BEAR!
    Or replace Paragon with barbarian (only you take him after Monk) and take some more levels = even more pissed off Kung Fu Bear.
    Or Broodguard Monk 4/ Fist of the Forest 3 if you want to avoid those combinations (allows for more free levels to play with Mixing Bear Warrior and Warshaper)

    - Kensai fix a lot of Monk problems. Try to get into it. You may even try combining it with Vow of Poverty, you can get basically all weapon enchancments you'll ever want or need.

    - One issue of Dragon magazine has feat that allows to tie Paladin's Charisma-Based abilities to Wisdom. Take it and 2 levels of Paladin and you won't fail a save until it's natural 1. Later there is Argent Fist PrC clearly intended for Monk/Paladin multiclassing or other PrC for both (Kensai comes to mind)

    - Tashhalatora was mentioned, but I personally think that Psychic Warrior mix is just too easy and really more a build for PsyWar with Monk dip. Try some other build with it, to quote somebody who knows more about it than me:



    - if you preffer Psionic Fist over Tash, like I do, try this: Monk 6/Drunken Master 2/Psionic Fist 10/ Warshaper 2. Or, how they call it, Ultimate Monk. There is however one thing you need to consider first. Strenght of this build is based on Combining Expansion and Shapechange to turn youself into enlarged version of powerful creature. the rules for those two power are written in a way that is abigious if that's legal (Shapechange doesn't specify if you count as enlarged if you change into larger creature or if your base size changes for the duration of shapechange) so remember to run this with your DM first.

    - Probably this is also possible with Enlighted and/or Sacred Fist but I haven't seen builds for that.

    - Here is a list of Monk PrCs, try to find something for you there.

    This is why I don't like the Monk... It takes soooo much to get it to play decently... And you need a ton of "yes I'll allow it" from the DM.

    And then you need a ton of different stuff.... *sigh*

    I have a copy of ToB that I got for $15.00 on ebay or amazon... I can make a great Monk using that one book (+core which is free from online).
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    I have a copy of ToB that I got for $15.00 on ebay or amazon... I can make a great Monk using that one book (+core which is free from online).
    Yes, it's called an Unarmed Swordsage...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    Of course, that is so obviously against the intent (no, Snowbluff, I'm not going to listen to any argument in favor of it being a stealth buff) that the DM will just say "no".
    Qualitative feats are better than quantitative feats, as a rule.

    And yes, it's blatant abuse, but if you want to optimize, I am going to give the RAW. Since I am not his DM, I can't nix options or do any RAI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Yes, it's called an Unarmed Swordsage...
    Well yeah, as I said earlier, play a swordsage. It doesn't have to be unarmed really, I like my monk using sais or other weapons sometimes... Just for the heck of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Qualitative feats are better than quantitative feats, as a rule.
    There aren't to many on the fighter bonus feat list that I would call high enough quality to dip into for this Monk. There is just to many other better options...

    You get 2 Fighter Bonus Feats? How about grabbing some maneuvers instead?

    Feats are nice but there is a reason fighters aren't that great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    There aren't to many on the fighter bonus feat list that I would call high enough quality to dip into for this Monk. There is just to many other better options...

    You get 2 Fighter Bonus Feats? How about grabbing some maneuvers instead?

    Feats are nice but there is a reason fighters aren't that great.
    Because you have the Prerequisites for the feat, but not the Prequisites for the Maneuvers.

    Fighter aren't that great because they need feat CHAINS. If Three Mountains, Rolimbar's Gambit, Lightning Maces, Whirlwind, etc did not have an insane number of requirements, they would see a lot more play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    The Martial Monk get's all of the Fighter Bonus feats added as options for their feats. No requirement Rolibar's Gambit etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    I'm not sure giving anyone anything from the fighter is optimizing.....
    Actually 2 no-prereq feats are great for maritial characters. And definitelly worth taking 2 levels of monk.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Optimizing the Monk is easy. Give it the Paladin, Ranger or Hexblade spell list. Then give it either turning, an animal companion, or a familiar based on the same .

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Where is this martial monk from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    This is why I don't like the Monk... It takes soooo much to get it to play decently... And you need a ton of "yes I'll allow it" from the DM.

    And then you need a ton of different stuff.... *sigh*
    Dude, that's really a thing with every class in this game especially if you go into PrCs.

    Also, for people who bring up Unarmed Swordsage - just play a normal Swordsage, you won't die fro shame of playing a guy with such ridiculous name.

    Also, there is a way for undecided, to have your cake and eat it too - Shadow Sun Ninja PrC from Tome of Battle, clearly intended to let you combine Monk and Swordsage.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    You should really just read a monk handbook, OP.... Has all the assortments of best monk stuff collected in one place.

    If you insist on being a monk, and for more than 2 or 6 levels....

    Start off here. Download the little pdf linked, on page 6 you'll find the Dark Moon Disciple Monk. Take Shadow Blend sub. at level 7. Feel free to take Darkvision at 3 if you want, but absolutely do not take the 12th level sub.
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    Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a 7th-level Dark Moon Disciple can disappear into the shadows, gaining total concealment. Artificial light does not negate this ability, though a daylight spell does.
    This benefit replaces the wholeness of body class feature that the standard monk gains at 7th level.


    Then head over to Complete Champion. Make sure your monk is LG or LE. Take the (Un)Holy Strike alt. class feature, swapping your stupid ki strike (magic) for good/evil aligned attacks and +1d6 damage versus evil/good enemies.

    Then check out Book of Exalted Deeds. Do not go Vow of Poverty, it's a trap. Take Touch of Golden Ice, so all unarmed strikes now force a save vs. dex damage for evil foes. While you're here, may as well take Nymph's Kiss as your 1st level feat, too...

    That's it for now, just look in a handbook to find more stuff. Although I will be remiss to not mention the first rule for those who stubbornly ignore the 1st two rules of "being a monk": TAKE IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK!!!! Just do it!

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Surprised noone's mentioned oversized flurry, which allows you to use any light weapon.

    Then grab EWP: whip dagger, ring of enlarge, and improved trip feat lines.

    Rule the midrange battlefield

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    You mean Unorthodox Flurry, from Dragon Compendium and Dragon Magazine #279?

    To use that with an exotic weapon... you would need EWP: Whip Dagger AND Unorthodox Flurry: Whip Dagger... that's a two feat investment!
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-17 at 12:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    One tolerable Monk build is Wild Monk (Dragon 324) 6/Master of Many Forms 10/Nature's Warrior 4, or "Suddenly, BEAR-FU".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspargo View Post
    Where is this martial monk from?
    Dragon Magazine, issue number unknown.

    It's best-known for being 'used' to take Epic Leadership and Legendary Commander, because they are also considered (epic) Fighter Bonus Feats...
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    You mean Unorthodox Flurry, from Dragon Compendium and Dragon Magazine #279?

    To use that with an exotic weapon... you would need EWP: Whip Dagger AND Unorthodox Flurry: Whip Dagger... that's a two feat investment!
    That's it - I always get the name wrong.

    And I did mention EWP: Whip Dagger above;)

    Also, he said human. With two flaws, that's four feats at first level. He could go monk2/psiwarX and grab expansion for a two-size jump, making him huge, and a natural 15 foot reach. Add the whips reach, and you're looking at at least 30' worth of AoO and trips. That's enough to lock down your enemies for the splatters to clean up with minimal damage taken. Toss in a level of shiba protector for WIS to attacks (and damages) to help make sure you hit those trips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Dude, that's really a thing with every class in this game especially if you go into PrCs.

    Also, for people who bring up Unarmed Swordsage - just play a normal Swordsage, you won't die fro shame of playing a guy with such ridiculous name.

    Also, there is a way for undecided, to have your cake and eat it too - Shadow Sun Ninja PrC from Tome of Battle, clearly intended to let you combine Monk and Swordsage.
    Funny thing about that... you don't need a ton of stuff to optimized ToB, Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer, etc etc etc... Actually you don't usually even need to ask the DM for the most broken stuff in the game (core wizard, cleric, druid) since you know it is core and for some reason people think it is the most balanced stuff.

    You don't need a ton of stuff to optimize these classes. And the PrC's usually don't help optimize them ... Really going straight Druid/Cleric/Wizard is pretty dang optimized.

    Heck even the Charger builds you need very little to optimize.

    However the Monk needs soooo much more just to get to a piece of the pie.
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    Funny thing about that... you don't need a ton of stuff to optimized ToB, Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer, etc etc etc... Actually you don't usually even need to ask the DM for the most broken stuff in the game (core wizard, cleric, druid) since you know it is core and for some reason people think it is the most balanced stuff.

    You don't need a ton of stuff to optimize these classes. And the PrC's usually don't help optimize them ... Really going straight Druid/Cleric/Wizard is pretty dang optimized.

    Heck even the Charger builds you need very little to optimize.

    However the Monk needs soooo much more just to get to a piece of the pie.
    Dude, even Tier 1 needs a lot of stuff from other sources - I mean, new spells that may be useful? Honestly, the amount of stuff you need depends on optimization level in your party. I mean, if Emperor Tippy was my DM I would optimize heavily even the Cleric or Druid. Plus, there are always issues with multiclassing and stuff. Even from ToB guys which you rarerly optimize using sources outside ToB (mostly because there isn't much outside ToB made for them, through feats are always nice). I wouldn't say that Monk needs much, Shadow Sun Ninja requires only SREd and ToB, Kensai build only Compete Warrior - most of times it's one Handbook + Compelte Champion if you do Fist of the Forest. Templates are nice but you may live without them.

    And to prove that you can make good monk without tons of stuff, I would like to introduce you to vanilla-flavored SRED Only Ultimate Monk.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    If using partial BAB rules (and I hope you are): Cloistered Cleric of Fharlanghn 1/Monk2/Half Orc Paragon 3/ Fighter 2/Runescarred Berserker 10/Crusader 2. Feel free to put as much into dex as you will.

    Fharlanghn gives you protection and travel domains. Switch those for devotion feats. Cloistered Cleric gives you knowledge devotion. Go with it. You can passively put skills into that as you like, no rush, thats just a nice little bonus compared to what you are getting. You also get some spells and the ability to use healing wands.

    Monk 2 for all of the Monk 2 fun things

    Half Orc Paragon 3 for strength bonus and Rage, doesnt have to be nonlawful.

    Fighter 2 for the first dungeoncrashing and a feat.

    Runescarred Berserker for several Extra Rages, Improved Raging abilities, DR and Bonus NA. Its like a 10 level class that makes you everything a barbarian normally gets without the need to be nonlawful. Oh yeah, and 5th level divine spells, which includes ANTI MAGIC FIELD. Did I mention that it is ridiculously easy to qualify for this class? 12 skill points, two feats (one of which will actually help you out) and a BAB requirement.

    Crusader because there is no PRC that is going to improve you at this point, the delayed damage pool is too small to be effective, but there will be occasions where you cannot full attack, and raging and using a strike with full power attack is better than raging and just swinging your fist regularly with full power attack, and the stances can be useful. Maybe spend some of your feats early on for Martial Strike and Stance so you can get higher strikes and stances at this point.

    Spend feats on things that improve your unarmed strikes. Put up anti magic field. OR you can try and do the DMM Persist route and have up Righteous Might all day (which, hey, not a bad option, just might leave you feat starved. Will also drive you MAD).

    Without the DMM route, you will be Dex>Str>Con>Wis>Int>Cha. You need at least 13 Con for Reckless Rage and 15 Wis for your anti magic field. Dex will be more important than Strength, though you will feel the pain earlier on because you wont have all the rage goodies until level 5. You dont need Charisma unless you want to use turn undeads to fuel your devotion feats.
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Dude, even Tier 1 needs a lot of stuff from other sources - I mean, new spells that may be useful?
    They don't need anything from out of core. All that Monk optimizing stuff from every possible source out there doesn't even come close to what a T1 can do without any book trawling whatsoever - and most of the reason that Monk is better with outside sources is that the more stuff you have, the more levels of not Monk you can take.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2012-11-17 at 04:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post

    And to prove that you can make good monk without tons of stuff, I would like to introduce you to vanilla-flavored SRED Only Ultimate Monk.
    Even considering Flying Kick is not in the SRD....anything that goes into Epic levels, let alone Level 30, without 9th+ spellcasting is not 'Ultimate' anything.
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    Default Re: Optimize Monk

    And that's why friends dont let friends use Dandwiki!

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