Why is it so bad to want to heal?

[Lans]

As others have said, not all concepts are created equal. Some choices are simply sub-optimal by their nature.

Which is why it requires about as much optimization as a fighter or ranger to be effective as opposed to the standard cleric or wizard

[Kazyan]

As others have said, not all concepts are created equal. Some choices are simply sub-optimal by their nature.

No amount of optimization handwringing is worth giving up on your concept.

[Amphetryon]

No amount of optimization handwringing is worth giving up on your concept.

Don't recall saying it was. Pointing out that some choices aren't the best ones isn't the same thing as telling someone not to make those choices.

[Answerer]

No amount of optimization handwringing is worth giving up on your concept.

It is if the concept is, by nature of its weakness, incompatible with your group.

If you're playing with Team Solar, and your concept is Frodo Baggins, there's a problem, and since you're the odd man out, the problem is you.

[Kazyan]

Don't recall saying it was. Pointing out that some choices aren't the best ones isn't the same thing as telling someone not to make those choices.

Understood; I mistook your post for a counterargument.

It is if the concept is, by nature of its weakness, incompatible with your group.

If you're playing with Team Solar, and your concept is Frodo Baggins, there's a problem, and since you're the odd man out, the problem is you.

*raise finger, opens mouth to speak*

*lowers finger, sighs, packs up toys and goes home*

[Answerer]

I'm sorry, there is no privileged position for being weak. Just like it's inappropriate to show up with Pun-pun in a swords & sorcery-style game, it's inappropriate to show up with a character whose race does not synergize with his class and whose feats and skills were all chosen to simulate a non-adventuring life before he got involved in this mess when the rest of the group has made a special ops team composed of the most efficient and powerful classes/races/feats they can come up with short of infinite loops.

And your concept is never an excuse for causing out-of-character strife. That's the same as people who justify being a jerk to their fellow players because "it's in-character," as if they have no responsibility for their character.

[Kazyan]

I'm sorry, there is no privileged position for being weak. Just like it's inappropriate to show up with Pun-pun in a swords & sorcery-style game, it's inappropriate to show up with a character whose race does not synergize with his class and whose feats and skills were all chosen to simulate a non-adventuring life before he got involved in this mess when the rest of the group has made a special ops team composed of the most efficient and powerful classes/races/feats they can come up with short of infinite loops.

And your concept is never an excuse for causing out-of-character strife. That's the same as people who justify being a jerk to their fellow players because "it's in-character," as if they have no responsibility for their character.

Yeah. I get that now, and was trying to concede the argument in an amusing way. This is a forum made of text, it turns out. Curse how difficult it is to convey tone over text.

[Jerthanis]

Maybe in your game but not in mine. Playing a cleric I can reach party members just fine. I don't cast Cure Wounds only and forever, but I do it enough to make sure party members don't die in combat. I keep them alive, they get the killing blow, we all win. It's a tactic. It works.

Well congratulations on getting it to work right, but the response to the desire to play a Healer could well be characterized by "It's fine if you want to do it depending on the optimization level, but it's generally a bad tactic." You can argue with the general response and try to convince the general public it's a tactic that works if you want, but it's not precisely what I was talking about.

I was trying to address the systemic problems with some suggested houserules. The suggestion to use the Reach Spell Metamagic to overcome one of these hurdles just makes each other systemic problem worse in practically every way.

[Tvtyrant]

The solution is simple; make the line of Cure X spells swift actions. Or make the inflict line vampiric, so when you cast Inflict X wounds you also heal an ally.

[Rubik]

The solution is simple; make the line of Cure X spells swift actions. Or make the inflict line vampiric, so when you cast Inflict X wounds you also heal an ally.

I like this line of thought, only I'd make Cure spells immediates (which you can also cast as move actions) with some reach, and Inflicts should be touch spells but which can also cure others some distance away.

I'd also boost the damage cured a bit by the Cure spells.

And yes, that's a big bump, but that's just how bad the spells really are. Even with the boosts they're not particularly overpowered, let alone broken. It just means everyone would start trying to kill the healer of the opposing party first (or focus on non-damaging things, or attrition).

[toapat]

I like this line of thought, only I'd make Cure spells immediates (which you can also cast as move actions) with some reach, and Inflicts should be touch spells but which can also cure others some distance away.

I'd also boost the damage cured a bit by the Cure spells.

And yes, that's a big bump, but that's just how bad the spells really are. Even with the boosts they're not particularly overpowered, let alone broken. It just means everyone would start trying to kill the healer of the opposing party first (or focus on non-damaging things, or attrition).

well, didnt blizzard teach SC2 "shoot the medic first" to great effect?

[Tvtyrant]

I like this line of thought, only I'd make Cure spells immediates (which you can also cast as move actions) with some reach, and Inflicts should be touch spells but which can also cure others some distance away.

I'd also boost the damage cured a bit by the Cure spells.

And yes, that's a big bump, but that's just how bad the spells really are. Even with the boosts they're not particularly overpowered, let alone broken. It just means everyone would start trying to kill the healer of the opposing party first (or focus on non-damaging things, or attrition).

And now I know what I want to be when I grow up....

[Menteith]

With bonus feats, what you guys are suggesting is already mostly doable in-game. Mastery of Day and Night freely Maximizes Cure/Inflict spells, Dragon Prophesier + Prophecy's Shepherd lets you freely Quicken Cure/Inflict spells while in prophetic favor (and lets you grab Prophecy's Shaper for a free Empower as well).

It's not terribly hard to get big numbers while healing that can negate a significant amount of damage. The core issue - that HP damage isn't always a big threat, that it's hard to have answers to every debuff out there (unless you know exactly what you'll be fighting), that reactive actions are almost always worse than proactive actions in 3.5 - remain, even with big heals. It's a low-op strategy at heart, and while it's a personal favorite playstyle of mine, that doesn't mean it's very powerful.

[rockdeworld]

I like this line of thought, only I'd make Cure spells immediates (which you can also cast as move actions) with some reach, and Inflicts should be touch spells but which can also cure others some distance away.

I'd also boost the damage cured a bit by the Cure spells.

And yes, that's a big bump, but that's just how bad the spells really are. Even with the boosts they're not particularly overpowered, let alone broken. It just means everyone would start trying to kill the healer of the opposing party first (or focus on non-damaging things, or attrition).

Except, wouldn't that cause the cleric to run out of spell slots extremely quickly? I can't imagine keeping that tactic up for more than a few rounds per day.

[dungeonnerd]

Except, wouldn't that cause the cleric to run out of spell slots extremely quickly? I can't imagine keeping that tactic up for more than a few rounds per day.

No faster than the other way - you'll still hit the same number of combats you would normaly, I think.

[INoKnowNames]

Rather than tell everyone don't heal, don't do this, don't do that, I feel like we should help them try to do so as best as we can. Even if begrudingly so, and with notes on how ineffective such things might be, people still give recommendations on making a Monk or an Oversized Twoweapon Fighter...

Ta feat Invigorating Spellcaster in Dragon Magazine (or at least the Dragon Compendium) lets any spell that cures hit point damage also cure any or all of (dazed, exhausted, fatigued, sickened, or stunned), at the cost of being unable to be silenced due to a required verbal component.

Additionally, the feat Initiative of Ilmater grants excess healing to temporary hit points. Max equal to target hit dice x 3, that lasts as long as your caster level in hours.

Would either of these be useful, combined with techniques that increase how much you heal?

[Jerthanis]

I like this line of thought, only I'd make Cure spells immediates (which you can also cast as move actions) with some reach, and Inflicts should be touch spells but which can also cure others some distance away.

I'd also boost the damage cured a bit by the Cure spells.

What I worry about with numbers expansion and removing the Action Economy Cost from cures as well as giving these spells a range is that if someone has a good healer, you have effectively stopped HP damage as a means of disabling enemies unless you're managing to drop someone in one hit. HP damage doesn't impede opponents' speed, attack or damage, so until you drop someone, you're not really affecting the course of the battle. It seems like in this format, depending on how much you increase healing by, it'll become even more about disabling spells, since HP damage has become trivial to remove in a way that disabling spells still aren't.

[TypoNinja]

No amount of optimization handwringing is worth giving up on your concept.

Nobody says he should, if he wants to play a healbot power to him. I've done it, it was my first character.

However, There is generally the assumption of a Holy Trinity of class roles (4 in D&D with the skillmonkey) Tank DPS and Healer, it may be that somebody is assuming that the healer is going to be more required/effective than that archetype actually is in this particular game. Our OP should be aware of that.

[killem2]

Nobody says he should, if he wants to play a healbot power to him. I've done it, it was my first character.

However, There is generally the assumption of a Holy Trinity of class roles (4 in D&D with the skillmonkey) Tank DPS and Healer, it may be that somebody is assuming that the healer is going to be more required/effective than that archetype actually is in this particular game. Our OP should be aware of that.

Thanks :), I don't want a heal bot, nor do I think it is a great use of a cleric, I just wanted to know why it can be optimized to the best of the playground's knowledge :P

Sorta like what INoKnowNames said.

[navar100]

Rather than tell everyone don't heal, don't do this, don't do that, I feel like we should help them try to do so as best as we can. Even if begrudingly so, and with notes on how ineffective such things might be, people still give recommendations on making a Monk or an Oversized Twoweapon Fighter...

Ta feat Invigorating Spellcaster in Dragon Magazine (or at least the Dragon Compendium) lets any spell that cures hit point damage also cure any or all of (dazed, exhausted, fatigued, sickened, or stunned), at the cost of being unable to be silenced due to a required verbal component.

Additionally, the feat Initiative of Ilmater grants excess healing to temporary hit points. Max equal to target hit dice x 3, that lasts as long as your caster level in hours.

Would either of these be useful, combined with techniques that increase how much you heal?

Feats to facilitate the tactic are fine, but it also comes down do timing of when to cast a Cure Wounds spell as opposed to doing something else. If someone is in Death's Door, do it then to get them back in the fight. If someone is close to Death's Door, do it then to prevent it to keep them in the fight. Neither is universally true. If it's close to TPK kill the bad guys fast and heal up afterwards. You may be too occupied to heal even if you wanted to. Doing something else may really be the better option at that particular moment depending on what that something is.

It really comes down to player experience. You can get a vibe of how a combat will play out/is playing out. You learn whether you're more useful for a particular combat as a warrior, spellcaster, or healbot. Some people prefer playing clerics as one of those roles, period. More likely just the first two. That's fine. For those who choose to have some healbot tactics, it's possible. Clerics have that versatility.

[animewatcha]

One thing to keep in mind is what sources are useable. Body to Body buff from Book of erotic fantasy ( 3rd party, but some thing it is WOTC or something ) can be VERY helpful for healing. Just depends upon combination of feats and sterf that is used.