Barbarian/Warblade build advice

[Nightgaun7]

I'm making a character for a campaign, and I want the character to have a mix of Barbarian and Warblade.

To this end, I am thinking the following:

I plan to primarily fight with polearms and other 2-handed weapons, as a "dragoon" FF-style. Armor spikes/gauntlets for backup, unless someone has a better idea.

Level 1: Spirit Lion Barbarian - Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Pounce ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF.
Level 2: Wolf Totem Barbarian - No feat, Improved Trip ACF
Level 3: Warblade - Combat Reflexes, Initiator level 2
Level 4: Fighter - Knockdown
Level 5: Fighter - Leap Attack
Level 6: Warblade - Shock Trooper, Initiator Level 4
Level 7: Warblade - No Feat, Initiator Level 5
etc...

Now, the problem is that I want to get Leap Attack and shock trooper ASAP, but to do that I need a feat at level 5, but taking Barb 2/Warblade 1/Fighter 2 means I can only take 1st level maneuvers at Warblade 1, and I'd like to be able to take level 2 maneuvers, which would happen with Barb 2/Fighter 2/warblade 1 Is there any brilliant way to both get Leap attack at 5 and 2nd level maneuvers?

I could also, I suppose, remove Fighter levels entirely (or go pugilist fighter, for free endurance and imp. unarmed strike. Is there any reason not to do this, really?).

Secondly, is this build in general good, or is there some glaring mechanical flaw that I've missed completely?

[Palanan]

I'm the DM for this campaign, and I just wanted to point out that this will be for a primarily martial party in the mid-tier range. So far the other characters include a rogue/swashbuckler, a fighter-archer and a modest arcane caster.

Right now most of the party is at fifth level, with builds that are decent but not overly optimized. I'll let the Playground take it from there.

[Nightgaun7]

I MUST HAVE ALL THE OPTIMIZATION
ALL OF IT

...wait, why am I playing a martial character...

[Firechanter]

Yeah well.. Knock-Down has Improved Trip as prereq, for which in turn you need Combat Expertise, so you can kick that right out...

Anyway, for Leap Attack you need 8 ranks in Jump, so there's no way to get below level 5, and Warblades don't get a feat 1st level, so it's either one or the other.

Also, I'd like to note that I find it rather silly to have two totems. It's not a question of balance, btw, but the fluff makes it sound rather nonsensical. It's like saying you're an Aries. And a Scorpio.

[Nightgaun7]

Yeah well.. Knock-Down has Improved Trip as prereq, for which in turn you need Combat Expertise, so you can kick that right out...

Anyway, for Leap Attack you need 8 ranks in Jump, so there's no way to get below level 5, and Warblades don't get a feat 1st level, so it's either one or the other.

Also, I'd like to note that I find it rather silly to have two totems. It's not a question of balance, btw, but the fluff makes it sound rather nonsensical. It's like saying you're an Aries. And a Scorpio.

Have you ever seen a totem pole with only one animal on it?

And I believe that getting improved trip from wolf totem would count for the purposes of knockdown, no?

[Firechanter]

Ah, I missed that Combat Expertise is not a prereq of Knock-Down... so ignore what I said. :p

Anyway, the totem thing is my take on the matter. If your DM is fine with that, go right ahead. I may be conditioned by Shadowrun where you (as Shaman) have exactly one totem, no more, no less.
But as I said, it's not a matter or power or balance; if a Barb player wanted to combine those ACFs, I'd just refluff it.

[DeltaEmil]

Ah, I missed that Combat Expertise is not a prereq of Knock-Down... so ignore what I said. :p

Anyway, the totem thing is my take on the matter. If your DM is fine with that, go right ahead. I may be conditioned by Shadowrun where you (as Shaman) have exactly one totem, no more, no less.
But as I said, it's not a matter or power or balance; if a Barb player wanted to combine those ACFs, I'd just refluff it.

Shadowrun has/had pantheistic shamans that serve all totems, so it's not unheard of.

[Palanan]

As DM, my main concern is how this build will perform in the context of the party I've described, especially given the stack of ACFs involved.

If this build makes the character a solid damage-dealer, that's fine; they'll need it. Will this deliver the goods in a mid-tier context?

[mattie_p]

Nightgaun7, what Warblade maneuvers do you plan on taking, or do you want advice on those as well? Level 2 maneuvers are nice, but you kinda need to prioritize. What is more important?

Level 2 Maneuvers as soon as possible?

Leap Attack as soon as possible?

Shock Trooper as soon as possible?

Trip + Knockdown as soon as possible?

I am aware that melee can move in a lot of different directions, but you seem to be trying to squeeze tripping + bullrushing + maneuvers all at once - at a glance I don't know it is all possible.

[Nightgaun7]

As you noted, I am trying to do a bunch of things, cause insofar as I'm aware I'll primarily be working with the bardblade, and I'm not sure exactly what he can handle. I know he's planning to go into White Raven, which is great for helping my charges. Imp Bullrush is only there as a Prereq, and Knockdown since it seems to synergize pretty well with improved trip. I could trade one of them out for Battle Jump to enable leaping charges, a la Kimahri...In fact, now that I think about it I'm basically playing an aquatic Ronso. I should get a horn.

Right now, I'm thinking that it's more important to keep my initiator level from taking a hit and to get my feat combos going, since I can retrain up to 9 warblade maneuvers over the course of my career.

I was thinking about Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter, or perhaps dropping a level of barbarian and adding in one of psychic warrior, to get another feat (and Expansion, which I've heard is quite good), but that idea's a bit fuzzy, cause I'm sleep deprived from talking to someone on the other side of the world. A problem with that would be that I have 10 wisdom, and getting that up to have power points would make me even more MAD than the normal melee character. I could reshuffle my stats a bit, but I'm already trying to keep Int up to use the warblade abilities.

For Warblade schools, I'm pretty sure that I'll go for moment of perfect mind, bounding assault, rapid counter, quicksilver motion, and time stands still.

I'm undecided on Iron Heart vs Tiger claw at the moment, or what ratio to mix both.

Iron Heart maneuvers of interest are Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Lightning Recovery, Mithral Tornado ->Adamantine Hurricane, and Iron Heart Focus. Taking 2 Iron Heart maneuvers gets me Dancing Blade form.

Tiger Claw maneuvers are Rabid Wolf->Rabid Bear, Sudden Leap, Death From Above, Dancing Mongoose->Raging Mongoose, Hamstring Attack, and Swooping Dragon Strike. Taking at least one Tiger Claw maneuver grants access to both Blood in the Water and Leaping Dragon Stance.

Or I could always use that option to spend EXP on creating new stuff : P

This post seems coherent to me, hope y'all can make sense of it.

[mattie_p]

As you noted, I am trying to do a bunch of things, cause insofar as I'm aware I'll primarily be working with the bardblade, and I'm not sure exactly what he can handle. I know he's planning to go into White Raven, which is great for helping my charges. charges charges Imp Bullrush is only there as a Prereq, and Knockdown since it seems to synergize pretty well with improved trip. I could trade one of them out for Battle Jump to enable leaping charges, a la Kimahri...In fact, now that I think about it I'm basically playing an aquatic Ronso. I should get a horn.

Right now, I'm thinking that it's more important to keep my initiator level from taking a hit and to get my feat combos going, since I can retrain up to 9 warblade maneuvers over the course of my career.

I was thinking about Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter, or perhaps dropping a level of barbarian and adding in one of psychic warrior, to get another feat (and Expansion, which I've heard is quite good), but that idea's a bit fuzzy, cause I'm sleep deprived from talking to someone on the other side of the world. A problem with that would be that I have 10 wisdom, and getting that up to have power points would make me even more MAD than the normal melee character. I could reshuffle my stats a bit, but I'm already trying to keep Int up to use the warblade abilities.

For Warblade schools, I'm pretty sure that I'll go for moment of perfect mind, bounding assault, rapid counter, quicksilver motion, and time stands still.

I'm undecided on Iron Heart vs Tiger claw at the moment, or what ratio to mix both.

Iron Heart maneuvers of interest are Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Lightning Recovery, Mithral Tornado ->Adamantine Hurricane, and Iron Heart Focus. Taking 2 Iron Heart maneuvers gets me Dancing Blade form.

Tiger Claw maneuvers are Rabid Wolf->Rabid Bear, Sudden Leap, Death From Above, Dancing Mongoose->Raging Mongoose, Hamstring Attack, and Swooping Dragon Strike. Taking at least one Tiger Claw maneuver grants access to both Blood in the Water and Leaping Dragon Stance.

Or I could always use that option to spend EXP on creating new stuff : P

This post seems coherent to me, hope y'all can make sense of it.

Just at a glance, you want to charge. That's cool. Drop the improved trip and knockdown, that's more of an AoO build. You really can't do everything as a melee character before epic levels. Sorry, them's the breaks.

Psywar will lose you bab and delay shock trooper, you probably don't want to do that. Expansion really helps you as a tripper and BFC, not so much as a charger. So don't bother. Skip Combat reflexes as well, pick up Extra Rage, unless you only want to whirling frenzy once a day.

This gives you room for more warblade if you want, or pick up 2 levels of ranger for two-weapon fighting with your polearm and armor spikes (on your mithral breastplate).

[Nightgaun7]

Just got the word on no psionics, so that simplifies that.

Could you explain why to drop Imp Trip and Knockdown? I get Imp Trip as a class feature, so it's not eating a feat slot, and knockdown can be used on any attack, so I can charge people and knock them over at the same time, hopefully helping me not get eaten alive by counterattacks. I've been given to understand that tripping is one of the better things a melee character can do, and that combat reflexes was an excellent choice for any melee character too. If I get rid of those two but keep the fighter levels, I could take Battle Jump, assuming it lets me make jumping charges, and perhaps Improved Sunder to go into Combat Brute later. But it seems like that's taking away versatility just to pump out bigger numbers. Could also go for the mageslayer line, evasive reflexes, Martial Stance to get thicket of blades, or something else.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Leap Attack and Knock-Down aren't Fighter bonus feats, so you can't get them at those levels.

Take two flaws (City Slicker and either Bravado or Insomniac), trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill, and be a Goliath (RoS) with the +1 LA already bought off for 3,000 xp. Get the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape at Fighter 2, and take Knock-Back (RoS) since you'll already have Improved Bull Rush for Shock Trooper. You'll only be 4th level starting out, but you'll get more xp per encounter and catch up quickly. I'd start out Barbarian 2/ Warblade 2, and get Fighter 2 next and then either War Hulk from the Miniatures Handbook or just more Warblade.

[HunterOfJello]

That's not a barbarian/warblade, it's a barbarian/fighter with a warblade dip.

You seem to be trying to do too many things at once. You're going to end up halfway decent at a few things, but far less effective than you could be with just taking more levels in Warblade.

I don't know which version of Knock-back that you're looking at, but none of them are Fighter feats that I'm aware of. The Sword and Fist version is a normal feat, but the Deities and Demigods version is for deities only. (The SRD version is also deities only.)

Leap Attack and that sort of thing to increase damage is okay, but you'd do better with maneuvers like Soaring Raptor Strike in the first place.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

... the Deities and Demigods version is for deities only. (The SRD version is also deities only.)

You are mistaken, sir.
"Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats."
That doesn't stay that only deities may obtain those feats, and none of them have Divine Rank as a prerequisite.

[mattie_p]

OK, I don't want to get into a tier discussion, but melee characters kinda need to focus on one area in order to do it really well.

If you want to be a tripper, go for spiked chain + combat reflexes + size increases + thicket of blades + knockdown + bunch of other feats.

If you want to be a charger, go for two-handed weapon + PA + IMP bull rush + shocktrooper + leap attack + bunch of other stuff.

Even with fighter levels, melee feats are at a premium. You really cannot do everything in melee. So if you are a charger, choose one opponent. You charge them with pounce and multiple (PA bumped) attacks with shocktrooper to kill them in one action, so you don't have to worry about counter attacks. If you are a tripper, you want to trip everyone in sight, so that they all have to get up and trigger more attacks (incidentally, trippers want high dex to take advantage of all the AoOs they provoke, which hurts your raw damage due to MAD).

My advice is to pick one of those two areas and excel at it.

[Nightgaun7]

Leap Attack and Knock-Down aren't Fighter bonus feats, so you can't get them at those levels.

Take two flaws (City Slicker and either Bravado or Insomniac), trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill, and be a Goliath (RoS) with the +1 LA already bought off for 3,000 xp. Get the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape at Fighter 2, and take Knock-Back (RoS) since you'll already have Improved Bull Rush for Shock Trooper. You'll only be 4th level starting out, but you'll get more xp per encounter and catch up quickly. I'd start out Barbarian 2/ Warblade 2, and get Fighter 2 next and then either War Hulk from the Miniatures Handbook or just more Warblade.

Should have mentioned that my GM said I could get Knockdown as a fighter feat. Dunno about leap attack. I can only take one flaw. Depressing, I know. I don't know if we can buy off LA, but from previous comments from the GM I doubt it. I'm pretty sure you don't get the juicy part of Dungeoncrasher until after level 2... Not really interested in War Hulk, although it does have several nice features. Same problem with Frenzied Berserker, sadly.

That's not a barbarian/warblade, it's a barbarian/fighter with a warblade dip.

You seem to be trying to do too many things at once. You're going to end up halfway decent at a few things, but far less effective than you could be with just taking more levels in Warblade.

I don't know which version of Knock-back that you're looking at, but none of them are Fighter feats that I'm aware of. The Sword and Fist version is a normal feat, but the Deities and Demigods version is for deities only. (The SRD version is also deities only.)

Leap Attack and that sort of thing to increase damage is okay, but you'd do better with maneuvers like Soaring Raptor Strike in the first place.

Well, post level 6 I'd be going straight warblade, so it would end up being mostly that.
As pointed out by Biffoniacus_Furiou, it's the Knockdown from Sword and Fist, and my GM said it could be a fighter feat.
Soaring Raptor Strike only works on targets larger than yourself.

OK, I don't want to get into a tier discussion, but melee characters kinda need to focus on one area in order to do it really well.

If you want to be a tripper, go for spiked chain + combat reflexes + size increases + thicket of blades + knockdown + bunch of other feats.

If you want to be a charger, go for two-handed weapon + PA + IMP bull rush + shocktrooper + leap attack + bunch of other stuff.

Even with fighter levels, melee feats are at a premium. You really cannot do everything in melee. So if you are a charger, choose one opponent. You charge them with pounce and multiple (PA bumped) attacks with shocktrooper to kill them in one action, so you don't have to worry about counter attacks. If you are a tripper, you want to trip everyone in sight, so that they all have to get up and trigger more attacks (incidentally, trippers want high dex to take advantage of all the AoOs they provoke, which hurts your raw damage due to MAD).

My advice is to pick one of those two areas and excel at it.

Between the repeated "pick one thing" message and the input of the party member, I've decided to focus on Charging. I'll work up a new version shortly.

[Nightgaun7]

Oh, and something I've been wondering about but haven't found an answer to - how to deal with the fatigue that comes from raging?

[mattie_p]

Oh, and something I've been wondering about but haven't found an answer to - how to deal with the fatigue that comes from raging?

A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter

* High con score

* End battles quickly

* Extend rage feat (really not recommended, but it is there)

* Level 17 barbarian

Also, from the list of stuff

Immunity to Fatigue/Exhaustion - see text for specifics
Horizon Walker 1, ecl 6, DMG, desert terrain mastery
Divine Mind 1 or 6 or 12, Complete Psionic, Repose Aura Power - extends to all in aura
Peregrine Runner 9, ecl 16, Races of Stone
Cyre Scout 6, ecl 12, Eberron: Dragonmarked, also gain endurance with better bonuses
Bone Knight 8, ecl 12, Eberron: Five Nations - plus other immunities
Thief of Life 8, ecl ?, Faiths of Eberron - limited duration, see text
Shifter Stamina, shifter feat, Races of Eberron, while shifting, fatigue/exhaustion effects take place after shift ends
Heavy Legs, warforged graft, Faiths of Eberron

[Nightgaun7]

OK, in looking at charging, here's what I find are the basics to do well at it:
Pounce
Whirling Frenzy is not required but it helps.
Power attack
Improved Bullrush (to qualify for Shock Trooper)
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper

Beyond that, I might be able to take Battle Jump to get leaping charges.
Reckless Offensive seems like it won't be too useful
I'm not sure exactly how Headlong Rush works, but depending on how the damage is multiplied, it could be pretty good. I qualify by virtue of being a variety of half-orc.
Improved Sunder -> Combat Brute. I hate feat taxes with a passion but it should be decent at putting down anything that survives the first round.
Furious Charge/Reckless Charge - I should be hitting things plenty already, I think
Hurling charge - mite b cool

However, it seems like past the core of the charger build, things rapidly decline in usefulness. So what should I be doing? Anything else I take will be branching out of charging again.

All this, of course, is assuming that our good GM lets me charge things. With this, if I can't charge for some reason, I'm in trouble. Warblade maneuvers will alleviate it a bit, but still.

[Artillery]

I would say drop the fighter levels. 5th lvl Warblade also has a bonus feat.
Lose knockdown, your initiator level will get you better things.

2 barb/5 warblade is Initiator lvl 6 which gets you lvl 3 Maneuvers.

6 Maneuvers known, 4 readied, 2 stances.

Edit: Leaping Dragon Stance should make Battle Jump unneeded.

[Nightgaun7]

Edit: Leaping Dragon Stance should make Battle Jump unneeded.

How so? Battle Jump lets you turn a jump into a charge, Leaping Dragon Stance gives you better jumps.

EDIT: On re-reading leap attack, it appears that it already allows you to make jumping charges, thus making Battle Jump unnecessary.

[Artillery]

Is LA buy off an option? If so Goliath is always considered running for jump check, so Leaping dragon stance minus +10ft to jumps. Also has powerful build; large weapons instead of medium weapons. Bonus for bullrush and grapples etc.
LA+1 from Races of Stone. Also +4 str +2 con -2 dex.

[Nightgaun7]

I don't know if LA buyoff is allowed, and I'm playing a homebrewed race. I think Palanan would kill me if I ditched it : P

[Nightgaun7]

OK, went through and made a list of all the feats that stand out
Power attack - This really ought to be a special attack like trip and bull rush are.
Improved Bullrush (to qualify for Shock Trooper)
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper
Headlong Rush? Depends on how the multipliers work and such
Improved Sunder -> Combat Brute. While it should be decent at putting down anything that survives the first round, I hate feat taxes with a passion and I can probably do a decent enough job at hitting the second turn without it.

These appear to be the main charging feats, and of the 7, only 4 are really the core of the build.

Combat Reflexes: Hit people more often. Not the best at the moment, since I don't have a DEX bonus, but as items and such are acquired, it will likely become more useful. Ties in with what seems to be commonly regarded as one of the paths to melee greatness, Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit
Evasive Reflexes: Counts as Combat Reflexes for prereqs. I'm not really sure how good the ability is, and I think I'd rather have more attacks of opportunity, but if there's an opinion to the contrary, let's hear it.
Robilar's Gambit: as mentioned, this seems to be regarded as one of the all-time greats for melee characters
Knockdown: Hit people, get a free trip attempt. Stacks very well with improved trip from Wolf Totem Barbarian
Stand Still: make sure people stay where you put them
Defensive Sweep: While this is a normal part of lockdown builds, I think I don't actually mind people moving away from me all that much since it opens the range for a charge.

I admit that this is not the most fruitful path, since at the moment I haven't got a DEX bonus. I could either move stat points around, buy it up with wish, tomes, etc, or ignore it. Even without a lot of AoOs, it seems that Knockdown is quite good, and that's 1 feat. If I could find a way to et DEX 21, I could plow another feat into Improved Combat Reflexes and forget about it.

Extra Rage
Steadfast Determination - If I go pugilist fighter, chances of getting this are decent. If not, then nope.
Cleave - mite b cool, but then I could always use a warblade maneuver for this.
Adaptive Style - handy
Mad Foam Rager - depending on just what this lets you ignore, this is pretty cool
Martial Study
Martial Stance

These are all decent utility feats. Definitely picking up Extra Rage at some point.

So that's a grand total of 7 feats (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Reflexes, Knockdown, and Extra Rage) that gives me both a pretty good charge and a good way to control any opponent I can hit. That's the theory, at any rate. I admit it will take a little work to get my DEX up, but it doesn't have to be astronomical to be handy.

There are several other feats that I would love to have (Karmic strike, Elusive Target, and Spring Attack) that all have serious feat taxes that make them, in my mind, poor choices. I wouldn't be as interested in the crowd control if I could get to them...Wizards, y u do dis.

One way to improve the AoO stuff would be to take Ferocity instead of Whirling Frenzy. Not sure which would be better.

One other option that just occurred to me: Barbarian 5/Fighter 1/Warblade 14. There's a barbarian ACF that gets you a bonus feat at level 5, and I'd get an initiator level of 4 to start with as a warblade. Of course, I'd end up with 1 less maneuver, readied maneuver, and stance. Y'all chew on all this and I'll think about this some more later today.

[Palanan]

Based on what's been discussed so far, I'm making a couple of rulings here:

1. First, the barbarian needs to choose a single totem and commit to it; I don't like the idea of switching totems back-to-back.

2. That said, it seems the only reason for the second totem was to pick up Improved Trip, which in turn was supporting Knock-Back. No time to check sources right now, but I think the main issue with Knockdown (from Races of Stone) is that it requires Large size. Since the barbarian in question is six-foot-lots and weighs even more, I'm willing to let that be Large Enough for purposes of the Knockdown feat.

Hopefully this will simplify things a little more and help clarify the direction of the build.

[mattie_p]

It seems the only reason for the second totem was to pick up Improved Trip, which in turn was supporting Knock-Back. No time to check sources right now, but I think the main issue with Knockdown (from Races of Stone) is that it requires Large size. Since the barbarian in question is six-foot-lots and weighs even more, I'm willing to let that be Large Enough for purposes of the Knockdown feat.

Wrong knockdown, I believe this is the knockdown he wants.

Knock-Down [General]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.

Benefit
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

[Palanan]

Argh. I think I got my knock-feats mixed up. In a bit of a rush when I wrote that.

The feat he wanted was Knock-Down, using the version from Sword and Fist. The feat I'm suggesting he can be Large Enough for is Knockback, from Races of Stone.

Can't get at my sourcebooks right now, but I think this requires Power Attack and Improved Bullrush, both of which he'd been planning to take at first level.

[Nightgaun7]

Well, Knockback instead of Knockdown alters things significantly.

For some reason I'm guessing Wolf Berserker is also off limits.

And if that ACF or that feat are out, that would seem to effectively eliminate crowd control as an option, since I have to power attack to use it and because bullrushing isn't as useful as tripping, since your opponent can act normally afterwards. Correct? So it's more of a side benefit than something else to really get into, like the whole lockdown thing, especially since the Imp. Bullrush prereq is met by way of getting in to Shock Trooper. Which is admittedly nice, instead of bloody leap attack or elusive target...~mumble grumble~

Now I really have no idea what to go for. Barb 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 3 with extra rage or something, I guess.

EDIT: Since we're going to be on ships and such, that would probably increase the utility of bullrushing. Fall down go splash.

[Nightgaun7]

Ok, even though improved trip is gone, it looks like the original build is best, just with changed feats.

Level 1: Spirit Lion Barbarian - Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Pounce ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF.
Level 2: Barbarian
Level 3: Warblade - Extra Rage, Initiator level 2
Level 4: Fighter - Knockback
Level 5: Fighter - Leap Attack
Level 6: Warblade - Shock Trooper, Initiator Level 4
Level 7: Warblade
etc.

Is that all good to go?

One upside to this is not using a polearm, which means I only have to worry about GP to enhance a sword, instead of guisarme, sword, armor spikes, etc. Although armor spike would probably still be handy.