Is Tyrion a Targaryen?

[mitch0816]

Hey all, I know this topic has most likely been brought up on these forums but i couldn't find it so i figured I'd bring it up 'cause I would like to hear everyone's take on this theory.

I'll start by saying that I'm not wholely decided on this subject but for the purpose of this thread I'm going to be on the side of Tyrion being a Targaryen.

Arguments for this theory begin with Tyrion's fascination with dragons. I admit that this doesn't necessarily mean anything in itself as I think most people would be fascinated by dragons (I know I would be) but Tyrion seems to be somewhat obsessive of them, especially in the early stages of the book.

My second argument is based on Tyrion's appearance. He is described as having hair that is, if i recall, "...so blonde it seemed almost white" which to me seems like it could very well be the trademark Targaryen silver-blonde hair.
Also, he has one green eye (Lannister) and one "black" eye, which I suppose could be a very dark purple. Or even if its not, its no big deal because he doesn't necessarily have to have all the Targaryen features to be Targaryen.

So, one theory i've heard is that Joanna Lannister was raped by Aerys and Tyrion is the result. I'm going to use this theory as it seems more likely than most others and put my own spin on it. So here goes:

I think that it is possible, if not perhaps likely, that Joanna was raped by the Mad King and that Tywin found out. I think that Joanna then may have calmed Tywin down and stopped him from doing something rash (ie: killing the king or something). I recall someone saying that Joanna was the only person in the world that could control Tywin Lannister. So, this incident could be one of the "many slights" that Tywin suffered before resigning as Hand.

I think that once Joanna found out that she was pregnant she may have taken some moon tea to rid herself of the child. The moon tea failed to kill the child but managed to leave him disfigured and dwarfed and could also have been the reason for Joanna dying during child birth.

The primary reason that I want this theory to be true is that I don't think that Martin would truly let Tyrion murder his own father. I know that Tywin was his father as he grew up and that Tyrion believed him to be his father but I don't think he was ever truly fatherly to Tyrion or showed him any degree of affection, which leads me to my next point...

It's possible that Tywin was so cold towards Tyrion because he knew he was a Targaryen but couldn't do anything about it, as having him murdered would likely raise questions. I remember in one of Oberyn Martell's flashbacks Cersei saying that they weren't expecting Tyrion to survive for very long. I think that Tywin was probably waiting for him to die so he could be rid of the Targaryen abomination but, as he does, Tyrion pulled through and earned Tywin's eternal hatred.

This is a more clear explanation of why Tywin tells Tyrion he will never get the Rock. Surely even Tywin Lannister wouldn't be cold enough to downright deny him the Rock simply because he's a dwarf. I know he blames Tyrion for Joanna's death but still......cooooooold.

Anyways, feel free to take these ideas how you like and contribute your own ideas.

Cheers.

[pita]

To put it nastily, HAHAHAHAHA NO.
To put it a human way, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.
A. Tywin does not forget. Tywin does not forgive. If Tywin knew that Aerys had raped his wife, he wouldn't treat the bastard nastily. He'd force his wife to drink Moon Tea, and kill Aerys in an accident, or at least join Robert in the war against Aerys immediately, not after a while when it's definite that Robert would win. Even if the moon tea didn't immediately kill the child, I think Tywin would have her drink more, or at least arrange for an accident for the child, especially if giving birth to the child killed Joanna.
B. George R R Martin is an evil sunofawitch. He'd definitely have a character kill his own father, if it advanced the plot. And it does. Read some spoilered chapters from ADWD, you'll see Tyrion going completely loopy.
C. You have been reading the same books, right? We're talking about the guy who whored out his son's wife, told him she was always a whore, had his men rape her, and then his son. He killed off two houses he didn't like. He stared a man down from across the room, literally. He raised Cersei Lannister. If that's the mark of a good man, I feel sad for humanity. Why wouldn't he be cold enough to deny the son he hates his heritage?

[Dienekes]

Heard the theory before (check westeros.org for several long long threads on it)

And the basic answer is, if you look long enough you may see some random things that may or may not seem like it makes sense to you, but GRRM neither confirms nor denies it. And personally, I hope not. Tyrion is Tywin's son, these words make the most sense when comparing the two.

[Derthric]

I doubt Tyrion is a Targaryen, though it would explain his sheer power of awesome. Now the theories of Jon possibly being a Targeryen those are interesting.

[Yoren]

I think Tyrion's and Tywin's story is much more interesting if Tyrion is Tywin's son.

And like Pita said if Tywin knew or even suspected Aery's of touching his wife . . .there would be blood, fire, and pain for everyone. Triply so since Joanna died.

[mitch0816]

And like Pita said if Tywin knew or even suspected Aery's of touching his wife . . .there would be blood, fire, and pain for everyone. Triply so since Joanna died.

I agree that Tywin would have undoubtedly wanted to exact revenge on Aerys, being the cold motherf@#&er that he is, but thats where I think Joanna came in and convinced him not to do something that might jeopardise their House. Martin made a point of telling us that Joanna was the only person who could control Tywin which could just be character-building or it could be a clue.

The problem with this theory is that I think Tywin could have easily organised Aerys' death without drawing too much attention to himself or his House seeing as though Aerys was a crazy crazy man who had no shortage of enemies.

I should also finish by saying I think it is much more likely that Tyrion is not Targaryen as he's just too damn Lannister, I'm just arguing in the affirmative as it makes for better discussion.

[Cracklord]

In the first book it was stated that to a father all dwarves are bastards, and that Tywin was never sure that Tyrion was his. However, based on what we know about him when Joanna was alive they actually seemed to be in love. He even smiled back then. And given the sort of person he is I can't see her getting away with taking other lovers.

Of course, he apparently didn't notice his twins had a relationship on the sly either, so he might have been a little blind. Still, not likely as I see it.

Aerys might have raped her it's true, but Tywin would not stand for that. He was the most powerful lord, and the next two houses, the Baratheons and Starks both had a bone to pick with Aerys. On top of that the Tully's would have joined in an instant, and He would have lead the revolutioun, not joined at the end when it was all but over.

And Joanna would have told him. How would she hide it?

He's a cold hardarse, and a bad person, and treats other people appallingly, but he does have standards, and he is consistent. Hear Me Roar.

Also, who the hell care who Tyrion's blood father was? Tywin still raised him, still made him who he is, still treated him apallingly. He was, to all intents and purposes, his father.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I've always seen this theory as a very transparent attempt to forge Tyrion some +5 plot armor by connecting him to the shadowy prophecy thereby necessitating keeping him alive.

By the numbers though, this only works if somehow Tywin didn't know. Which is unlikely given that the only good relationship he ever had was with his wife. And he likely knew exactly how long he spent apart from her making a clandestine affair rather difficult. Because if he knew Tyrion would have been long dead before coming to Winterfell. And that add more to an already fairly unlikely tale.

And Tyrion is so like his father. While Targaryens in particular seem to run a crap-shoot between bat-**** crazy and decent guys. Tyrion is neither.

[JabberwockySupafly]

Hey folks, not trying to be rude or anything but shouldn't y'all be using spoiler tags? I, like many,haven't read all the books yet, and purposefully haven't read the rather lengthy and spoilerific posts and just thought I would point that out. Apologies if I offended anyone, just suggesting that maybe a spoiler tag on the thread name or something...

[Cracklord]

That's why you don't read speculations unless you have.

[Nerocite]

Tyrion's father is Chuck Norris.

[averagejoe]

That's why you don't read speculations unless you have.

Yes, but, if that's the case, the OP should put "[spoilers]" in the title. It's just polite.

[Xondoure]

The one problem I see with this, is that it takes away the one thing we know about Tyrion; he is his fathers son. Pretty much everyone but Tywin agrees, that Tyrion is more like his father than anyone else. Still it is interesting, although if I am not mistaken, the Targaryens often interbred with the other houses, so it is quite possible he does have Targaryen blood regardless.

[Gorgondantess]

Everyone keeps talking about how Tywin would have done something if Aerys had raped Joanna. And, well... what's to say he didn't? What's to say he didn't help incite the rebellion? Aerys died in the end, didn't he? When Tywin wants someone dead, he doesn't throw a bunch of swords at him unless he absolutely has to. Who killed Robb? The Freys. But who really killed Robb? Honestly... I wouldn't put it past the guy to have had his revenge on Aerys with a quill rather than a sword.
A bit far fetched, maybe, but it's all speculation.

[Zeta Kai]

Pardon my ignorance, but what show/game/movie/book/series/whatever is this discussion concerning?

[BRC]

The one problem I see with this, is that it takes away the one thing we know about Tyrion; he is his fathers son. Pretty much everyone but Tywin agrees, that Tyrion is more like his father than anyone else. Still it is interesting, although if I am not mistaken, the Targaryens often interbred with the other houses, so it is quite possible he does have Targaryen blood regardless.

To build on this, besides the whole Dwarf/Mother Died in Childbirth thing, I have a feeling that the Tywin/Tyrion similarities are WHY they don't get along very well together.
Jamie and Cesari are both very good at their roles, and with one exception, they don't really rebel, hence why Tywin likes them so much, they are excellent pawns in the Game of Thrones. Cesari has her Beauty, which means he can get alot of political capital from whomever he marries her too (In this case, King Robert). Jamie is a very skilled knight, which once again makes him very useful.
Tyrion's main asset however is his intellect. While neither of the twins are exactly stupid, neither is exactly known for their intelligence. Tyrion however, is very smart, just like his father. But Tywin has all the intellect he needs, and he prefers pawns who blindly trust him, not ones who are smart enough to doubt and work against him.

[Yoren]

Pardon my ignorance, but what show/game/movie/book/series/whatever is this discussion concerning?

A Song of Fire and Ice by George RR Martin.

Everyone keeps talking about how Tywin would have done something if Aerys had raped Joanna. And, well... what's to say he didn't?

Well unless Tywin had some crazy influence over Rhaegar's penis (which I, admittedly, can't entirely rule out) its highly unlikely he was a driving force behind Robert's Rebellion.

I should also finish by saying I think it is much more likely that Tyrion is not Targaryen as he's just too damn Lannister, I'm just arguing in the affirmative as it makes for better discussion.

That's what I love about the books. There are a thousand different theories about everything and anything and they're all really fun to discuss.

[Killer Angel]

Now the theories of Jon possibly being a Targeryen those are interesting.

Well, I'm pretty convinced about that.

[pita]

The only evidence I can find for this theory is simple genetics.
Tywin has green eyes.
Joanna was by birth a Lannister. She also probably has green eyes.
Tyrion has a black eye. That's completely impossible for two parents with green eyes.
Tywin definitely didn't know, even if it was true. Otherwise Tyrion would not have stayed alive.

[Jerthanis]

Tyrion is so obviously a Targaryen that it causes me physical pain. I can't even imagine it being a debate except that George R. R. Martin is a **********er and would place literally every piece of evidence towards a conclusion that he would arbitrarily counter later just to screw with his readers.

[Cracklord]

Tyrion is so obviously a Targaryen that it causes me physical pain. I can't even imagine it being a debate except that George R. R. Martin is a **********er and would place literally every piece of evidence towards a conclusion that he would arbitrarily counter later just to screw with his readers.

Actually, I've always thought of him as very much his fathers son. He's not as cruel, but he is just as manipulative, and loves power in exactly the same way. He is very much a Lannister in the way he thinks and acts.
A case could be made for nature versus nurture, I suppose.

I can't see Tywin not knowing. Sorry, I just can't. And if he knows, then Aerys would have died a lot sooner.

I've always seen the reason Tywin hates Tyrion so much is that, at the end of the day, he knows he is the most like him. He knows that ultimately he is the most promising of his sons. And he's a dwarf, stunted and has no regard for the exact same things Tywin has no regard for, is just as smart and manipulative, and Tywin hates him for it. Every time Tywin looks at him, he see's a charicture of himself who stole the women he loved.
QED.

Of course I could be wrong. But there is no physical way to have purple eyes either, so I wouldn't bring genetics into this.

[SmartAlec]

Well, I'm pretty convinced about that.

It does seem likely that Jon is a Targaryen.

Which draws another interesting Targaryen parallel to Tyrion; just like Daenerys and Jon, his mother died giving birth to him.

Another thing to think about: the Lannisters seem to have this 'thing' about names beginning with Ty-. Tytos, Tygett, Tyrek. It seems to be a classic Westerman thing. So isn't it strange that Tywin's golden, perfect children have rather more regular names, but he lets the dwarf son that he hates carry a Ty- name that's so definitely Lannister?

Almost as if Tywin wanted there to be absolutely no speculation as to what Tyrion's lineage was.

[Jerthanis]

Actually, I've always thought of him as very much his fathers son. He's not as cruel, but he is just as manipulative, and loves power in exactly the same way. He is very much a Lannister in the way he thinks and acts.
A case could be made for nature versus nurture, I suppose.

Tyrion could never have inherited any of that intelligence, manipulation or lust for power, and so on from his mother, could he?

Also, if he's the blood of Dragons, he's got all the more reason to have manipulation and love for power.

I can't see Tywin not knowing. Sorry, I just can't. And if he knows, then Aerys would have died a lot sooner.

Aerys was the king and mad. To suggest that Tywin could have killed him on a whim is crazy, and after a point he couldn't kill the man because his favorite son was on his Kingsguard. That alone would keep him from rebelling openly.

I think "Tywin is omnicient, so he'd know, and because he's omnipotent, he'd have killed Aerys instantly and/or made his wife get an abortion." is a bad argument. There are dozens of reasons he might not have known. On top of that it's a huge stretch to assume Aerys' life was in Tywin's hands. Beyond that, there are many obvious reasons to not get the abortion (son wants to join Kingsguard, may need another heir. Also prenatal paternity tests are impossible in Westeros, so he may have thought it could be his.)

I've always seen the reason Tywin hates Tyrion so much is that, at the end of the day, he knows he is the most like him. He knows that ultimately he is the most promising of his sons. And he's a dwarf, stunted and has no regard for the exact same things Tywin has no regard for, is just as smart and manipulative, and Tywin hates him for it. Every time Tywin looks at him, he see's a charicture of himself who stole the women he loved.
QED.

Of course I could be wrong. But there is no physical way to have purple eyes either, so I wouldn't bring genetics into this.

And that can be the only reason a father can resent a son. Seeing himself through a funhouse mirror. That's literally the only way it can happen. How amazingly convincing. You even used a QED to show how convinced I should be.

Seriously, he was visually linked to kingly imagery in his first real appearance, he seems to know how to design unique saddles. He has boat-light eyes and Platinum hair instead of Golden hair. He has been fascinated with Dragons from an early age. The Dragon has three heads, and the only other candidate is Jon. I'm sure I could think of more if I even half tried, this was just stuff I picked up on from a casual reading of the books once. The only reason I can think of for GRRM to not have him turn out to be a Targaryen is to ruin the faces of everyone who thought he would for the lulz.

[Cracklord]

I think "Tywin is omnicient, so he'd know, and because he's omnipotent, he'd have killed Aerys instantly and/or made his wife get an abortion." is a bad argument. There are dozens of reasons he might not have known. On top of that it's a huge stretch to assume Aerys' life was in Tywin's hands. Beyond that, there are many obvious reasons to not get the abortion (son wants to join Kingsguard, may need another heir. Also prenatal paternity tests are impossible in Westeros, so he may have thought it could be his.)

Hey, no reason to be rude. I'm being polite.

I did not say that is the only reason for him to resent his son. I can think of tonnes. There is even the most simple, that Tyrion, whoring, ugly, smartass midget that he is, is an embarrassment to his father. That's just the impression I got.
Yes, he could have got that from his mother, though I haven't heard enough about her. And the Dragons, while ambitious, are all but blunt instruments, particularly Aerys. They are tough, and intelligent enough, and ambitious, and charismatic, but subtle? Not a word I'd choose.
However, as I said before, nature versus nurture.

And as to he could kill Aerys on a whim, well, Aerys did get killed. And so did Robert. Planned by Cercei, and her father is much smarter, wiser, more cunning, subtle and cruel. Tywin could have probably arranged things so that it happened. Look what he did to Robb. If not, well he's the sort of person who would be unable to let that go past without bloody reprisal. Hear me roar.
Yes, Jaime's ambitions were to join the Kingsguard. Now, when has Tywin put his children's wellbeing before his own?
Having your wife raped is not what I'd call a whim.

He does not need to be Omniscient to spot that. Now, Aerys seemed to be just as happy to have his girls... unwilling. So perhaps the same was true for Joanna. But then why wouldn't she tell Tywin? Shame? Even he isn't that cold. So perhaps they had a consensual affair, and in a keep with servants and relations who gossip, no one spotted them. Possible, but unlikely. However, from the little we have gleaned of their relationship, they loved each other, so perhaps not so likely either (Course it didn't stop Eddard. Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic).

Now, if he is so obviously not a Lannister due to appearance, then I am fairly sure Tywin could spot it. Or any of the other characters would have. Bran was fascinated by Dragons in the first book too. And Samwell Tardy mentions reading about them.

Well, I suppose the crux of the matter is you think it explains more for him to be a Dragon (which you are right about), and I think that Tywin being his father makes the first book to third book far more interesting.

Yes, I know QED was inappropriate. But I feel it gives my arguments a finished look. No need to get worked up on it.

[pita]

Tyrion is so obviously a Targaryen that it causes me physical pain. I can't even imagine it being a debate except that George R. R. Martin is a **********er and would place literally every piece of evidence towards a conclusion that he would arbitrarily counter later just to screw with his readers.

You're missing out on the biggest problem in the theory.
If Tywin knew, why let Tyrion live? He didn't let the Castameres live, he didn't let the Reynes live, why would he let an example of his failure live, especially if that example killed his wife?
It's also not that Tywin is an omnipotent badass. But if he wants someone dead, that someone will die, and not even by his hands. He engineered the Red Wedding, and Robb Stark wasn't even insane. He could have engineered a similar occasion for Aerys.
I can't imagine this being a debate because it's so obvious. You want to take the subtext? How about Tywin's sister telling Jaime that Tyrion is Tywin's true son? How about the fact that Tyrion is just as good a schemer as his father, something not seen in Aerys "Batshot crazy" Targaryen, or any other Targaryen for the matter? How about the fact that Tyrion still has a green eye?
What shred of proof is there that Tyrion is Aerys's son that doesn't make as much or more sense with the assumption that Tyrion is Tywin's son? Find me one bit of evidence that can't go both ways. I'll concede my point.
This isn't close to a real theory. Sandor=The Gravedigger is a theory. R+L=J, as much as I hate it, is a real theory. Even Coldhands=Benjen Stark makes more sense. The Grand Tyrell Conspiracy makes more sense. Varys being a Faceless Man makes more sense.

[Killer Angel]

You're missing out on the biggest problem in the theory.
If Tywin knew, why let Tyrion live? He didn't let the Castameres live, he didn't let the Reynes live, why would he let an example of his failure live, especially if that example killed his wife?

This.
Even if Tyrion were really a Targarien, surely Tywin didn't knew, otherwise the dwarf would be dead meat a long time ago.
Eventually, he could have only some suspect (and this would justify even more Tywin's hatred for Tyrion)

[mitch0816]

I can't imagine this being a debate because it's so obvious. You want to take the subtext? How about Tywin's sister telling Jaime that Tyrion is Tywin's true son? How about the fact that Tyrion is just as good a schemer as his father, something not seen in Aerys "Batshot crazy" Targaryen, or any other Targaryen for the matter? How about the fact that Tyrion still has a green eye?

Excuse me for being blunt but I don't see your point. What Tywin's sister Genna says about Tyrion is a reference to his personality, not his genetics or appearance (...clearly). Tyrion is much more like his father than Jaime or Cersei are because he thinks and acts much more like his father, though in my opinion Tyrion has one thing that most other Lannister's are notoriously lacking in...compassion.

And about the green eye. I think your forgetting that no matter who his father was, Joanna Lannister was his mother and I'm pretty sure she was a Lannister even before she married Tywin (who was her second cousin or something like that...hehe aah dear) so he would've gotten the green eye from her.

This isn't close to a real theory. Sandor=The Gravedigger is a theory. R+L=J, as much as I hate it, is a real theory. Even Coldhands=Benjen Stark makes more sense. The Grand Tyrell Conspiracy makes more sense. Varys being a Faceless Man makes more sense.

Sandor=The Gravedigger ain't a theory, that **** is fact. And what's so farfetched about Varys being a Faceless Man?

[Megaduck]

I think that it is possible, if not perhaps likely, that Joanna was raped by the Mad King and that Tywin found out.

Sorry, the books flat out say no.

When Tyrion comes back with the Clans from the mountains of the moon he and Tywin have an argument.

Tywin basically says (Paraphrased because I don't have the book in front of me)

"You're a horrible Whoring little man who brings shame on the house, but I've never found proof that you're a bastard so you're still my son and can wear my colors."

If Tywin knew Tyrion was a bastard he would have been disowned. Tywin might suspect, but he doesn't know.


The only real support for this theory is the "Dragon has three heads" prophecy.

We know Dany is a T, we suspect Jon is a T, and since that leaves one more and everyone loves Tyrion we want him to be a T as well.

[Mewtarthio]

Wait, what's all this about Jon's mother being a Targaryen?

[pita]

Sandor=The Gravedigger ain't a theory, that **** is fact. And what's so farfetched about Varys being a Faceless Man?

Megaduck has it more accurately stated than any more I could say on the subject.
Sandor=The Gravedigger is still a theory, because we don't see his face, and in fact, all we know is that there's a gravedigger who's big and likes dogs.
Jon's mother isn't a targaryen. According to a lot of fan speculation, Rhaegar Targaryen is Jon's father and Lyanna Stark is his mother, and they were in love. The proof for this is mostly in the story of the Tourney of Harrenhall (Told in ASOS, in a Bran chapter), the Tower of Joy sequence (One of Ned's last chapters in AGOT), and the timeline of Robert's Rebellion. I dislike this theory because of the amount of support it gets, but I can't deny that it's somewhat plausible. I just hope GRRM is a better author than that.