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    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Yes, but your character says whatever you want them to, absent weird optional rules modules like the eyestrain rules for whatever that one magical-gunslinger class was.
    Yes of course, but if you say that they say something stupid, then the character says something stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Regardless, there are easier ways to get this even without any particular cheese. Ur-Priest to steal an Efreet's wish ability for example.
    Or Spellthief even.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    I know, though considering this is an optimization board...
    While that is one of the things that happens here, this is not inherently "an optimization board."
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    Efreet is the plural. Efreeti is the singular. Sorry for the nit pick, but it's been wearing on me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    You actually have to say what you want.
    This has nothing to do with DM fiat, well other than it's a wish.
    Wait, what if you cast Silent metamagic Wish... do you still need to speak it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Wait, what if you cast Silent metamagic Wish... do you still need to speak it?
    The spell fails, or rather it's a null wish. The spell description states that
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    The spell fails, or rather it's a null wish. The spell description states that
    So does that mean that if a character with Ignore Material Components cast Clone it fails because...

    To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body.
    Because he lacks a laboratory for the creature to inhabit and any flesh to duplicate?

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    Ignore Material Components does not obviate the need for a Focus, but I guess you don't need the 1,000 gp nor technically the Piece of Flesh.

    The problem with casting Clone, without the Piece of Flesh, is what exactly are you cloning ? Fresh Air ?

    It's a bit like casting Magic Missile at The Darkness.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Ignore Material Components does not obviate the need for a Focus, but I guess you don't need the 1,000 gp nor technically the Piece of Flesh.
    You can have a restorative liquid (supplies) without having any beakers and test tubes (Equipment)

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    The problem with casting Clone, without the Piece of Flesh, is what exactly are you cloning? Fresh Flesh Air?
    It's called spontaneous creation. It's magic. It doesn't have to explain jack or diddly

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    It's a bit like casting Magic Missile at The Darkness.
    ... I'm not exactly seeing how it is... I mean by your logic anything that allows a caster to bypass the need for material components is worthless

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    Nevermind trying to actually phrase a wish to an outsider without making some verbal misstep and getting your wish twisted in the worst possible way the creature can think of; all he's got to do is hem and haw for two minutes, making you elaborate a little more here or clarify there, and you go past the "automatically does what you direct" into the "contractual negotiations" phase of a calling gate. At that point, he doesn't have to give you jack via wish.

    I said this in another thread and it was positted that the 20 round duration is a game construct that the creature wouldn't know about. The counter to this argument is simple; one or another god of magic -will- know about this limitation of the spell and the item as part of their portfolio. They will inform their celestial or fiendish servants about these limitations to protect their own interests. In no time at all, the limitations of the spell have circled the great wheel, and every outsider worthy of being called via gate already knows how to get around it for the truly obnoxious callers. Choosing not to fight on behalf of the candle's user is automatically out, since it would be nigh-impossible to feign ignorance of the user's wishes but just about anything else will be negotiable and, more importantly, almost certainly will have to be negotiated.

    Any plan that relies on calling an outsider is opening yourself up to DM trickery. Either be prepared to cut a reasonable deal or be prepared for the consequences.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-18 at 07:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Nevermind trying to actually phrase a wish to an outsider without making some verbal misstep and getting your wish twisted in the worst possible way the creature can think of; all he's got to do is hem and haw for two minutes, making you elaborate a little more here or clarify there, and you go past the "automatically does what you direct" into the "contractual negotiations" phase of a calling gate. At that point, he doesn't have to give you jack via wish.

    I said this in another thread and it was positted that the 20 round duration is a game construct that the creature wouldn't know about. The counter to this argument is simple; one or another god of magic -will- know about this limitation of the spell and the item as part of their portfolio. They will inform their celestial or fiendish servants about these limitations to protect their own interests. In no time at all, the limitations of the spell have circled the great wheel, and every outsider worthy of being called via gate already knows how to get around it for the truly obnoxious callers. Choosing not to fight on behalf of the candle's user is automatically out, since it would be nigh-impossible to feign ignorance of the user's wishes but just about anything else will be negotiable and, more importantly, almost certainly will have to be negotiated.

    Any plan that relies on calling an outsider is opening yourself up to DM trickery. Either be prepared to cut a reasonable deal or be prepared for the consequences.
    But you're assuming that the caster is playing fair (a rather bad and often suicidal assumption...)

    Assuming that we are using a Wizard with an intelligence score of 18 (which for a real world conversion in my opinion would be to multiply the result by 10 since the average I.Q. is 100 and the average intelligence score is 10). The Wizard is already planning at such a level that no matter what the called creature is doing it is completely S.O.L the moment a person of such cosmic intelligence actually gets their grips around them.

    I prefer to deal with outsiders, by carrying an incredibly large stick while negotiating, be that in the form of Banishing the creature, Dismissing, Binding, or simply killing them on their home plane. Either way i enjoy to have an ace in the hole that literally screws the entire creature over if it tries to fiddle out of kneeling to me and accepting me as it's Master.

    When you are planar binding you have to have something that will crush the creatures will, otherwise it might get wise and try and fight back. We can't have that.

    Personally I prefer using the Spellcraft to buff up my caster level to a total of 38 (DC 110 Spellcraft. MoF) so that the creature is denied it's saving throw against your Binding spell. When it pops into the binding trap tell it what you want or show him/her what it's like to be a ship in a bottle for all eternity. I recommend that you tell it to fail the next save that it is allowed. Cast Mind Rape. Congratulations. You now have an eternal slave who will do whatever you want. whenever you want. I recommend that you send it on a quest forever travel the plane building orphanages and slaying all evil creatures (except itself).

    The problem with Outsiders is that they believe that they actually have a purpose in the universe when in actuality they are forever slaves. Either to a God, an Idea, a Cause or a Person. No matter how they choose to live they are being forced to fight for something... Never knowing true freedom, an Efreet will only exist for a nongenie to stumble upon it and make a Wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    ... I'm not exactly seeing how it is... I mean by your logic anything that allows a caster to bypass the need for material components is worthless
    Stawman.

    What I am referring to are null processes.

    For example.
    Get hold of a calculator and enter any number you like, 1234 say.
    Now enter "+0=". The calculator will perform this operation, but the result will be unchanged.

    Wish specifically takes what you say and changes reality accordingly (subject to the listed caveats obviously). If you cast Wish and say nothing (for whatever reason) then you get exactly what you asked for.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    But you're assuming that the caster is playing fair (a rather bad and often suicidal assumption...)

    Assuming that we are using a Wizard with an intelligence score of 18 (which for a real world conversion in my opinion would be to multiply the result by 10 since the average I.Q. is 100 and the average intelligence score is 10). The Wizard is already planning at such a level that no matter what the called creature is doing it is completely S.O.L the moment a person of such cosmic intelligence actually gets their grips around them.

    I prefer to deal with outsiders, by carrying an incredibly large stick while negotiating, be that in the form of Banishing the creature, Dismissing, Binding, or simply killing them on their home plane. Either way i enjoy to have an ace in the hole that literally screws the entire creature over if it tries to fiddle out of kneeling to me and accepting me as it's Master.

    When you are planar binding you have to have something that will crush the creatures will, otherwise it might get wise and try and fight back. We can't have that.

    Personally I prefer using the Spellcraft to buff up my caster level to a total of 38 (DC 110 Spellcraft. MoF) so that the creature is denied it's saving throw against your Binding spell. When it pops into the binding trap tell it what you want or show him/her what it's like to be a ship in a bottle for all eternity. I recommend that you tell it to fail the next save that it is allowed. Cast Mind Rape. Congratulations. You now have an eternal slave who will do whatever you want. whenever you want. I recommend that you send it on a quest forever travel the plane building orphanages and slaying all evil creatures (except itself).

    The problem with Outsiders is that they believe that they actually have a purpose in the universe when in actuality they are forever slaves. Either to a God, an Idea, a Cause or a Person. No matter how they choose to live they are being forced to fight for something... Never knowing true freedom, an Efreet will only exist for a nongenie to stumble upon it and make a Wish.
    And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?

    Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.

    Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?
    Actually, most Outsiders are kind of apathetic towards each other. I'm curious where most people are getting the idea that if a few of them go missing someone will suddenly pop out of nowhere and say "You killed my Father! I must avenge him!" Besides. You are mostly taking Evil Outsiders for the use of their Wish ability. Nothing says I can't just send him/her back (still brainwashed) after I'm done and have them come back to me when their abilities are all fresh and useful again If I want a reliable summon that I can use on the fly I'd just cast Gate and cut the middle man.

    Regardless. This is all DM's fiat. Hell, if you wanted to go into that realm you matter as well say that Ao pops down from his cosmic recliner and goes nuclear trying to free a bunch of Outsiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.
    Candles of Invocations, if used improperly (i.e. recklessly summoning Efreeti to grant your wishes without any forethought) is suicidal. Outsiders might be slaves, but they are slaves with an intelligence score (a bad thing in my opinion). I recall in The Haunted Lands trilogy, the Zulkir of Conjuration binding hundreds of thousands of Demons to his will and he wasn't torn a part by Demons or Efreeti or Fiends. No, he was killed by another Wizard (Szass Tam to be more specific) so just because you planar bind a couple (or more) outsiders does not mean you are automatically going to get curbstomped by the first Outsider who tries to pull Scry-&-Die tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.
    fix'd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Actually, most Outsiders are kind of apathetic towards each other. I'm curious where most people are getting the idea that if a few of them go missing someone will suddenly pop out of nowhere and say "You killed my Father! I must avenge him!" Besides. You are mostly taking Evil Outsiders for the use of their Wish ability. Nothing says I can't just send him/her back (still brainwashed) after I'm done and have them come back to me when their abilities are all fresh and useful again If I want a reliable summon that I can use on the fly I'd just cast Gate and cut the middle man.

    Regardless. This is all DM's fiat. Hell, if you wanted to go into that realm you matter as well say that Ao pops down from his cosmic recliner and goes nuclear trying to free a bunch of Outsiders.



    Candles of Invocations, if used improperly (i.e. recklessly summoning Efreeti to grant your wishes without any forethought) is suicidal. Outsiders might be slaves, but they are slaves with an intelligence score (a bad thing in my opinion). I recall in The Haunted Lands trilogy, the Zulkir of Conjuration binding hundreds of thousands of Demons to his will and he wasn't torn a part by Demons or Efreeti or Fiends. No, he was killed by another Wizard (Szass Tam to be more specific) so just because you planar bind a couple (or more) outsiders does not mean you are automatically going to get curbstomped by the first Outsider who tries to pull Scry-&-Die tactics.



    fix'd
    Bold statement is a bold assumption. Apathy for one another's well being amongst the neutral and evil outsiders, sure. But apathy for their well being is not apathy for their entire being. Planar politics (I hear that's a real big thing amongst lawful types) demands you keep tabs on your enemies.

    If people in your neighborhood start disappearing, you ask why. You may be glad they're gone, but not finding out why, especially given that summoning and calling magic exist, is just foolhardy. You could be next! And not just by random chance, suppose your enemy gave his kidnapper your name in an effort to take you with him! Surely you must find and eliminate this threat to your machinations.

    Then of course there are the creature's political allies. They aren't friends by any stretch, but if their plans demand interaction between their organizations (I'm thinking Efreet trading cartels mostly) then you nabbing the boss or one of his lieutenants can cause a serious disruption, making you a threat that needs to be eliminated.

    This of course assumes, that you weren't foolhardy enough to call an outsider that isn't prevented from using his wishes on his own behalf. If an angel wishes or miracles himself out of your binding setup, you've got a serious problem. Same goes for a glabrezu.

    Yes, trying to abuse anything is asking for a smack with a DMG, but trying to abuse calling spells to break the game doubly does so and doesn't require a "because I said no" from the DM, since there're perfectly logical reasons that it's a terrible idea.

    Of course, using anything less than gate can get you an automatic no regardless of your willingness and ability to torture the creature to get what you want. The entire planar binding line has a clause that says a called outsider always refuses an unreasonable request. Granting your wish with no guarantee of being allowed to leave safely and be left alone is giving up his one bargaining chip for nothing, an unreasonable request by almost anyone's definition; and if you mindrape him into believing you're his friend, it's still unreasonable to grant you a wish without getting something (even just a small token sacrifice on your part) in return, especially when you're asking an evil creature, and even when you're asking a (now) good creature as someone who's clearly evil.
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    All of this is why you don't get greedy with wishes. What better use for all those useless magic items from 5-10 levels ago than to offer them to the Efreet as a gift!

    Now, I've played with many DMs that like to screw with players, regardless of what they wish for. I was once in a game (something like 20 years ago) where a guy wished he had a pet dog. The DM (being a jerk as usual) turned the high level fighter into a little girl now holding a pet dog. Needless to say, the game didn't last long.

    I've never been such a jerk. If the wish is reasonable (ie within the guidelines presented in the book), I allow it every time with no tricks. If the players want to get creative, I get creative, but I also consider the character that is wishing, not just the player. If the character is a 25th level Wizard with a 20+ IQ, I forgive some misspeaking on the players part. Like was stated earlier, the character is smarter than the character could ever hope to be and should be given credit and a pass on some stupid mistakes.

    This doesn't mean I give a complete pass on bad wishes, just that I mitigate the bad effects. For instance, I wouldn't lock the PC in a box for all eternity for wishing he was immortal. I would immortalize him by having a great artist paint a picture of him, have a bard write an epic song about him, or give him the option to turn into an undead, but I would not screw him over completely.

    The same goes for stupid characters. I once had a player write a short thesis explaining the ins, outs, and clauses of his wish to become a vampire without any of the weaknesses of a vampire. The player was rather smart, but the character was of average intelligence. I said a big no to that one (since it was completely out of character and outside the characters abilities to word such a wish) and allowed him to be a vamp for a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?

    Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.

    Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.
    ^^^ This.

    Once a plane decides to abuse candle of invocations and wish/gate loops, you can assume that the wish economy will develop the the point that no mortals will be able to squeeze a binding/gate in. I believe others on this forum have addressed this.
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    I'm not saying that wish is a bad spell, or that it should always be twisted.

    I'm just saying that you should be careful what you wish for and who you ask to grant it.

    If I was ever to try binding an outsider for a wish, I'd hire a kolyarut to draw up a contract for us and wouldn't bother with the binding circle. I'd call up the appropriate outsider (a noble djinn if I can get the name of one) and have a sit-down and negotiation. The kolyarut witnesses and files the contract, that way if either of us breaks our end, the forces of mechanus will be up the oath-breaker's butt for as long as it takes to mete out the agreed upon consequences.

    If one of my players casts the spell for himself on a safe-list wish there's obviously no problem, since he just spent 5K or more XP to get what he wanted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Bold statement is a bold assumption. Apathy for one another's well being amongst the neutral and evil outsiders, sure. But apathy for their well being is not apathy for their entire being. Planar politics (I hear that's a real big thing amongst lawful types) demands you keep tabs on your enemies.
    I'm fairly confident that if a Duke of Hell was randomly snatched by a Summoner, nobody would really care that much. Asmodeus would view it as the Duke being to weak and his subordinates would all fight over who becomes top dog. In Hell, whoever is top dog gets to make the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    If people in your neighborhood start disappearing, you ask why. You may be glad they're gone, but not finding out why, especially given that summoning and calling magic exist, is just foolhardy. You could be next! And not just by random chance, suppose your enemy gave his kidnapper your name in an effort to take you with him! Surely you must find and eliminate this threat to your machinations.
    Calling and Summoning is just like the Spanish Inquisition. Nobody ever expects it. Seriously, you're still playing with Rockets on this matter? Literally all it takes is keeping an eye on the summoner to make sure he isn't plotting to take you (or anything important to you) next. Not that hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Then of course there are the creature's political allies. They aren't friends by any stretch, but if their plans demand interaction between their organizations (I'm thinking Efreet trading cartels mostly) then you nabbing the boss or one of his lieutenants can cause a serious disruption, making you a threat that needs to be eliminated.
    Evil outsiders are Evil! When the big fish vanishes nobody asks questions. They just try to jump in and fill the vacuum as much as they could.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    This of course assumes, that you weren't foolhardy enough to call an outsider that isn't prevented from using his wishes on his own behalf. If an angel wishes or miracles himself out of your binding setup, you've got a serious problem. Same goes for a glabrezu.
    The Binding triggers the moment the creature pops into your binding (Metamorphosis) it can't use any of it's abilities until it agrees to serve you. The Pact Primeval only applies to Devil's, not Summoners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Yes, trying to abuse anything is asking for a smack with a DMG, but trying to abuse calling spells to break the game doubly does so and doesn't require a "because I said no" from the DM, since there're perfectly logical reasons that it's a terrible idea.
    Yeah... Remember when Iggwilv imprisoned Graz'zt and his Demon homies Orcus and Demogorgon popped on down, curbstomped her and let him go? Me neither! Cmon, Kelb... Evil Outsiders don't really care about each other... If a few hundred thousand of them vanish out of nowhere, nobody is going to ask questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Of course, using anything less than gate can get you an automatic no regardless of your willingness and ability to torture the creature to get what you want. The entire planar binding line has a clause that says a called outsider always refuses an unreasonable request. Granting your wish with no guarantee of being allowed to leave safely and be left alone is giving up his one bargaining chip for nothing, an unreasonable request by almost anyone's definition; and if you mindrape him into believing you're his friend, it's still unreasonable to grant you a wish without getting something (even just a small token sacrifice on your part) in return, especially when you're asking an evil creature, and even when you're asking a (now) good creature as someone who's clearly evil.
    I'm not even asking it to grant my Wish with Planar Binding. I asking it to simply fail the next saving throw it is required to make and I'll let him go. Their is no lie. No deception. No unreasonable request. Hell, while it is binded it can't even use any of it's abilities so how would it even go about granting the Wish if I really wanted to do that? I'm not mindraping him into thinking I'm his friend... That would imply we're equals in any way shape or form

    The Outsider has no leg to stand on in this argument. Either it does what you say or it is stuck in the bottle until you let it out, which might be never. At least with your offer it might get out of this alive.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-11-18 at 08:58 PM.

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    Evil outsiders are evil, isn't an argument. It's barely a statement of fact since "always evil" in an alignment block doesn't actually mean 100% always evil, even amongst outsiders with the subtype.

    Evil outsiders are smart (with few enough exceptions) and while they are generally back-stabbing dickweeds, they're not going to just outright ignore someone snatching people left and right.

    If you snatch one of the archdukes, his subordinates -will- come looking, unless Asmodeus promotes someone else into his place, since their duke is responsible for disseminating the divine power drawn from the torture of petitioners. Whether Asmodeus simply promotes someone else or not, he may decide that your act of impertinence is worthy of your immediate removal from the mortal coil. Granted, he also might decide it's worthy of some kind of reward, but either way you've now garnered the attention of one of the darkest, most dangerous powers in the cosmos. Good luck with that.

    Yes, binding chaotic outsiders is generally safer, as your example of the Iggwilv/Grazz't debacle shows. Honestly though, it seems to me that Grazz't didn't exactly get the rawest of deals there, and I don't believe his plans in the lower planes were put entirely to a stop either. Nevermind the sheer dumb luck Iggwilv had in the fact that Grazz't either had no subbordinates capable of tracking him down (which should've been mind-bogglingly simple) or they just consistently rolled poorly on the necessary checks for quite some time at the whim of the abyss.

    Btw, how are you making a metamorphic binding as soon as the creature is called? Contingent spell? Also, what exactly stops the creature from lying to you about voluntarily allowing a spell to take hold? Remember, this creature has all of eternity to get you back and can bide his time if he needs to. Unless you're just as immortal, and never manage to screw up this plan ever, eventually you'll be gone and he can wait for some knucklehead adventurer to come looting in the ruins of your place to set him free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Evil outsiders are evil, isn't an argument. It's barely a statement of fact since "always evil" in an alignment block doesn't actually mean 100% always evil, even amongst outsiders with the subtype.
    So now you decide to abandon a fluff argument and go into a argument of "Always Lawful Evil" doesn't mean "Always Lawful Evil"? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Evil outsiders are smart (with few enough exceptions) and while they are generally back-stabbing dickweeds, they're not going to just outright ignore someone snatching people left and right.
    I never said they were ignoring you. I stated that they were going to keep an eye on you to make sure you're not doing anything to hassle them. Binding an Enemy actually helps them. Binding a subordinate can also be helpful as well in a Lawful Evil society (Scheming lessers and all that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    If you snatch one of the archdukes, his subordinates -will- come looking, unless Asmodeus promotes someone else into his place, since their duke is responsible for disseminating the divine power drawn from the torture of petitioners. Whether Asmodeus simply promotes someone else or not, he may decide that your act of impertinence is worthy of your immediate removal from the mortal coil. Granted, he also might decide it's worthy of some kind of reward, but either way you've now garnered the attention of one of the darkest, most dangerous powers in the cosmos. Good luck with that.
    Nowhere in any source have I heard of a subordinate in a Lawful Evil society actively hunting down the guy that killed their boss. The general idea is that if you cut off the Head the Body dies. Asmodeus might be the King of Hell, but if you think he is going to actively baby sit you because you were to much of a wimp to defend yourself from a Summoner, you've definitely got another thing coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Yes, binding chaotic outsiders is generally safer, as your example of the Iggwilv/Grazz't debacle shows. Honestly though, it seems to me that Grazz't didn't exactly get the rawest of deals there, and I don't believe his plans in the lower planes were put entirely to a stop either. Nevermind the sheer dumb luck Iggwilv had in the fact that Grazz't either had no subbordinates capable of tracking him down (which should've been mind-bogglingly simple) or they just consistently rolled poorly on the necessary checks for quite some time at the whim of the abyss.
    Or ya know, nobody really cared. Graz'zt was getting Jack and Diddly out of that deal until Iggwilv fell in love with him. The Cult of Graz'zt would have been, by your logic, knocking at her Doors with enough Demons to make a "Darkness that the World has never seen" from the BoVD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    , how are you making a metamorphic binding as soon as the creature is called? Contingent spell? Also, what exactly stops the creature from lying to you about voluntarily allowing a spell to take hold? Remember, this creature has all of eternity to get you back and can bide his time if he needs to. Unless you're just as immortal, and never manage to screw up this plan ever, eventually you'll be gone and he can wait for some knucklehead adventurer to come looting in the ruins of your place to set him free.
    Lemme tell you my step > step plan.

    1. Cast Planar Binding to find a Wish granting create that has already used it's wishes
    2. Dimensional Anchor the area
    3. Don't talk with the creature for 10 rounds (1 minute casting for Binding)
    4. Prepare a bottle
    5. Order it "Fail your next Will Save"


    If it accepts proceed here
    Spoiler
    Show

    1. Cast Mind Rape on the subject telling to "Return here when you're Wish ability is useable again"
    2. Wait X amount of time to have your wishes granted


    If it refuses proceed here
    Spoiler
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    1. Capture it in it's bottle
    2. Place it (the bottle) in a bag of holding held by a mindraped minion with a Dagger with the orders "Ignore what is in the bag. If someone comes asking about Evil Outsiders, Fiends, Demons, or Efreeti, cut the side of the bag."
    3. Ask it again the next day until it submits.


    The bottles are set to be open either if the Caster dismisses the effect or if the Fiend sincerely submits to you're will. Which isn't even really necessary since nothing is preventing me from casting a spell at the subject until it fails its save. Since you enter the mind of the creature if it fails it's save you know when it'll fail

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    Pretty sure those evil outsiders might care about others of their kind being summoned/imprisoned/killed, but not because the old boys' clud o' demons would avenge the fallen. No, they would look at the summoner as a new source of power to either be feared or eliminated, simple. Thinking anything else is way out of character for their ilk.

    Now, the devils may do something about it, but only if you threatened a power with the ability to do something about it. Think about it, how often have we taken up arms against the aliens that have been snatching up humans?

    Lastly, Efreet have plane hopping ability. They can come and go as they please. Why would their brethren automatically assume they disappeared via foul play?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barna10 View Post
    Pretty sure those evil outsiders might care about others of their kind being summoned/imprisoned/killed, but not because the old boys' clud o' demons would avenge the fallen. No, they would look at the summoner as a new source of power to either be feared or eliminated, simple. Thinking anything else is way out of character for their ilk.
    I prefer binding Demons anyway... Like you said. They fear power

    Quote Originally Posted by barna10 View Post
    Now, the devils may do something about it, but only if you threatened a power with the ability to do something about it. Think about it, how often have we taken up arms against the aliens that have been snatching up humans?
    I don't believe in Aliens... I believe in Evil Gods! but that is for another discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by barna10 View Post
    Lastly, Efreet have plane hopping ability. They can come and go as they please. Why would their brethren automatically assume they disappeared via foul play?
    Quite true and when your buddies have nearly phenomenal semi-cosmic powers who is going to think that they were kidnapped?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    So now you decide to abandon a fluff argument and go into a argument of "Always Lawful Evil" doesn't mean "Always Lawful Evil"? Really?
    No, I'm saying that "they're evil" isn't fluff. It's a blanket statement that means almost nothing on its own for being entirely too broad.



    I never said they were ignoring you. I stated that they were going to keep an eye on you to make sure you're not doing anything to hassle them. Binding an Enemy actually helps them. Binding a subordinate can also be helpful as well in a Lawful Evil society (Scheming lessers and all that).
    Until you make the wrong move, then they try to kill you. Being on the radar for an entire society of vindictive immortals doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?



    Nowhere in any source have I heard of a subordinate in a Lawful Evil society actively hunting down the guy that killed their boss. The general idea is that if you cut off the Head the Body dies. Asmodeus might be the King of Hell, but if you think he is going to actively baby sit you because you were to much of a wimp to defend yourself from a Summoner, you've definitely got another thing coming.
    Then you need to take a closer look at FC2. If your boss gets offed, yes you get a chance to advance, but if the duke gets snatched the flow of divine power is disrupted. Asmodeus can fix it by promoting a new duke but, being asmodeus, he might decide its time for a team-building excersize since the in-fighting is getting a bit out of hand in that layer. Your summoner now has an entire layer of hell on his butt. Congrats.

    Even if big A does simply promote a new duke, his smiting you, or sending minions to smite you, isn't a matter of revenge for the fallen. Like you said, he couldn't care less about the schmuck you snatched. It's about sending a message to anyone else brazen enough to try the same. Mortals are already too big for their britches as it is. Knocking them down a peg by making an example is not only sensible, but fun. This particular sentiment trickles all the way down until you hit the lemure's who have no underlings to worry about and no minds to worry about them if they did.



    Or ya know, nobody really cared. Graz'zt was getting Jack and Diddly out of that deal until Iggwilv fell in love with him. The Cult of Graz'zt would have been, by your logic, knocking at her Doors with enough Demons to make a "Darkness that the World has never seen" from the BoVD.
    I very much doubt I'm the only one that thinks Iggwilv's hanging onto him that long reeked of "by the power of plot," but it is -possible- that the cult of grazz't just couldn't get on the ball properly since its patron's direct underlings are freakin' demons. Intentional sabotage of any rescue efforts may have played a role. I did concede that demon binding was -relatively- safer.



    Lemme tell you my step > step plan.

    Cast Planar Binding to find a Wish granting create that has already used it's wishes
    And you ran into a problem at step one. Planar binding isn't a divination. You either have to know of an outsider, by name, that fits this criterion or you're taking a chance that the wish granter will break your circle before you have a chance to use binding on him.
    Dimensional Anchor the area
    Standard fare, but doesn't necessarily stop a wish-based teleport. Remember that wish can move a creature "regardless of local conditions" which may or may not include dimensional lock/anchor at the DM's discretion.
    Don't talk with the creature for 10 rounds (1 minute casting for Binding)
    Prepare a bottle
    Binding allows both a save and spell-resistance. Good luck getting that to stick.
    Order it "Fail your next Will Save"
    No thinking creature will agree to that without a reason, period. Nevermind you just kidnapped this guy.

    If it accepts proceed here
    Spoiler
    Show

    1. Cast Mind Rape on the subject telling to "Return here when you're Wish ability is useable again"
    2. Wait X amount of time to have your wishes granted
    Not going to happen.
    If it refuses proceed here
    Spoiler
    Show
    1. Capture it in it's bottle
    2. Place it (the bottle) in a bag of holding held by a mindraped minion with a Dagger with the orders "Ignore what is in the bag. If someone comes asking about Evil Outsiders, Fiends, Demons, or Efreeti, cut the side of the bag."
    3. Ask it again the next day until it submits.
    Which has us down to "do it, or be banished to nowhere for all eternity." I don't see following through on that threat causing any problems.
    The bottles are set to be open either if the Caster dismisses the effect or if the Fiend sincerely submits to you're will. Which isn't even really necessary since nothing is preventing me from casting a spell at the subject until it fails its save. Since you enter the mind of the creature if it fails it's save you know when it'll fail
    The longer you take to do this, and the more steps there are in it, the more likely it is to fail. Nevermind that both binding and mindrape both offer a save and allow for spell-resistance. The binding diagram only keeps it from breaking free of the circle by SR, it doesn't remove it from the creature altogether.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-18 at 11:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    What I am referring to are null processes.

    For example.
    Get hold of a calculator and enter any number you like, 1234 say.
    Now enter "+0=". The calculator will perform this operation, but the result will be unchanged.

    Wish specifically takes what you say and changes reality accordingly (subject to the listed caveats obviously). If you cast Wish and say nothing (for whatever reason) then you get exactly what you asked for.
    You may be correct by RAW (though I am not entirely certain of this), but this makes little or no common sense, as there's no particular reason to suppose the sounds of someone speaking in Common, Sylvan, Giant (or whatever their native tongue is) is essential to the proper cosmic functioning of the spell. In point of fact, because wish lacks [language-dependent], it's highly unlikely that it does depend on that. Therefore, the spell merely interprets the intent of the user as appropriate; spoken words are not essential to that, especially if you consider telepathy.

    Therefore, I'm inclined to write that line off as meaningless and over-specific fluff, rather than trying to take its bizarre implications into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by barna10 View Post
    If the wish is reasonable (ie within the guidelines presented in the book), I allow it every time with no tricks. If the players want to get creative, I get creative, but I also consider the character that is wishing, not just the player. If the character is a 25th level Wizard with a 20+ IQ, I forgive some misspeaking on the players part. Like was stated earlier, the character is smarter than the character could ever hope to be and should be given credit and a pass on some stupid mistakes.

    This doesn't mean I give a complete pass on bad wishes, just that I mitigate the bad effects. For instance, I wouldn't lock the PC in a box for all eternity for wishing he was immortal. I would immortalize him by having a great artist paint a picture of him, have a bard write an epic song about him, or give him the option to turn into an undead, but I would not screw him over completely.

    The same goes for stupid characters. I once had a player write a short thesis explaining the ins, outs, and clauses of his wish to become a vampire without any of the weaknesses of a vampire. The player was rather smart, but the character was of average intelligence. I said a big no to that one (since it was completely out of character and outside the characters abilities to word such a wish) and allowed him to be a vamp for a day.
    You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and all wish-granting DMs should consider your example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    You may be correct by RAW (though I am not entirely certain of this), but this makes little or no common sense, as there's no particular reason to suppose the sounds of someone speaking in Common, Sylvan, Giant (or whatever their native tongue is) is essential to the proper cosmic functioning of the spell. In point of fact, because wish lacks [language-dependent], it's highly unlikely that it does depend on that. Therefore, the spell merely interprets the intent of the user as appropriate; spoken words are not essential to that, especially if you consider telepathy.

    Therefore, I'm inclined to write that line off as meaningless and over-specific fluff, rather than trying to take its bizarre implications into account.
    The implications are really very pragmatic. All Wishes require DM adjudication, even if they turn out to one of the standard safe ones. Without some phrasing this isn't possible. IMHO Telepathy would be fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    The implications are really very pragmatic. All Wishes require DM adjudication, even if they turn out to one of the standard safe ones. Without some phrasing this isn't possible. IMHO Telepathy would be fine.
    How does that preclude properly forming the desired wish, specific verbiage and all, in thoughts and then conveying that to the spell energy? Come on, I can't be the only one that can work out what to say in my head without having to move my lips.

    (And, as far as I know, telepathy is not usable by default for verbal components, so by your argument it would fail by RAW, which is I think undesirable.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?

    Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.

    Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.
    But you don't need to abuse any outsiders :P Just use one of wishes to create an item of at-will wishes

    Or if you don't allow custom a ring of three wishes (which you use to get more rings o' three wishes)...

    Also a scroll of mind rape to clean memory of the efreet if you're feeling paranoid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    No, I'm saying that "they're evil" isn't fluff. It's a blanket statement that means almost nothing on its own for being entirely too broad.
    Ewkay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Until you make the wrong move, then they try to kill you. Being on the radar for an entire society of vindictive immortals doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?
    It's happened before in D&D. Devils don't attack in waves, they attack in a more subtle way. Instead of charging at you guns a blazing with every single Pit Fiend in creation, they will first send Cultist and a few lower ranking fiends and then slowly advance up that list until, by the power of plot you have Asmodeus looking down your shoulder. All of that order leaves plenty of time for THEM to make the wrong move. Misdirection > PaO one of the dead cultist into looking like you > Wish for a custom item of constant Mind Blank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Then you need to take a closer look at FC2. If your boss gets offed, yes you get a chance to advance, but if the duke gets snatched the flow of divine power is disrupted. Asmodeus can fix it by promoting a new duke but, being asmodeus, he might decide its time for a team-building excersize since the in-fighting is getting a bit out of hand in that layer. Your summoner now has an entire layer of hell on his butt. Congrats.
    Pretty sure that isn't how it works... I'm not sure where you're getting that whole "Flow of divine power" stuff, but if you could, please direct me to a page

    Also, a MIGHT with a Devil isn't a sure fire 100% chance that he'll actually do it. He might just let the Layer burn for a few thousand years or a few weeks or until the Binder dies and the Duke is freed, but considering how long Wizards live, who knows when that will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Even if big A does simply promote a new duke, his smiting you, or sending minions to smite you, isn't a matter of revenge for the fallen. Like you said, he couldn't care less about the schmuck you snatched. It's about sending a message to anyone else brazen enough to try the same. Mortals are already too big for their britches as it is. Knocking them down a peg by making an example is not only sensible, but fun. This particular sentiment trickles all the way down until you hit the lemure's who have no underlings to worry about and no minds to worry about them if they did.
    And thus we return to the whole "Killing them on their own plane" thing. Wizards are cunning little monkeys and "big A", no matter how powerful he is, knows this. He's old enough to know that there are plenty of Wizards who have been powerful enough to actually Challenge him in terms of raw power or cunning, but let's not turn this into a Fanboy challenge between whoever V Asmodeus. Asmodeus, even in all of his "infinite" power does have a limit to what he can and can't do. He is not a Wizard, nor is he a God by any definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I very much doubt I'm the only one that thinks Iggwilv's hanging onto him that long reeked of "by the power of plot," but it is -possible- that the cult of grazz't just couldn't get on the ball properly since its patron's direct underlings are freakin' demons. Intentional sabotage of any rescue efforts may have played a role. I did concede that demon binding was -relatively- safer.
    It's either the deus ex machina did it or "she picked the best target". I mean it can't be that she was just smart enough to get away with it, because it is illegal for a Wizard to actually act their intelligence score and not their shoe size

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    And you ran into a problem at step one. Planar binding isn't a divination. You either have to know of an outsider, by name, that fits this criterion or you're taking a chance that the wish granter will break your circle before you have a chance to use binding on him.
    I shouldn't have assumed that you figured that I scryed into the guy that I wanted, but whatever. I'll add step 0 up in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Standard fare, but doesn't necessarily stop a wish-based teleport. Remember that wish can move a creature "regardless of local conditions" which may or may not include dimensional lock/anchor at the DM's discretion.
    Which is of course in the realm of DM's fiat. On that note a Wish-based teleport is also in the realms of DM's fiat. "I wish I was in Baator", which layer? Oh! and enemies layer would be fine! "Greater teleport!" Nope! You need to have all of the papers to be their filled out in triplicate signed by your respective Duke and sent to Asmodeus himself at the Corporate office.

    There is a point when Hell's Bueracracy stops making sense or being helpful, even to Devils.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Binding allows both a save and spell-resistance. Good luck getting that to stick.
    The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.
    Arcane Mastery + Assay Spell Resistance + 20th lvl Caster = +40 to overcome a 32 SR. Can you say... "Overkill"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    No thinking creature will agree to that without a reason, period. Nevermind you just kidnapped this guy.
    Your reason is your life. Unless of course you are going to argue with me that if someone were to put a gun to your head you wouldn't do what they asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Which has us down to "do it, or be banished to nowhere for all eternity." I don't see following through on that threat causing any problems.
    Neither do I

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    The longer you take to do this, and the more steps there are in it, the more likely it is to fail. Nevermind that both binding and mindrape both offer a save and allow for spell-resistance. The binding diagram only keeps it from breaking free of the circle by SR, it doesn't remove it from the creature altogether.
    Actually after the binding spell goes through the Fiend is S.O.L. because it is now trapped in a bottle until it submits. Regardless it is still trapped behind the obvious Magic Circle against Evil and Magic Circle against Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Not going to happen.
    Which has been your entire stance on this matter leading me to believe that you aren't going to be convinced. So if you want to continue this discussion we can do it in another thread if you'd like

    EDIT: I will admit that this text

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvana the Just, Paladin of Spherdale
    When you attack one demon, you attack a single creature. When you attack one devil, you attack them all.
    Which makes me actually contemplate dropping the idea of binding fiends and just binding Efreeti. Much easier if you truly have to go the 9 trillion yards to pop a single Pit Fiend into a bottle.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-11-19 at 01:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Ewkay.



    It's happened before in D&D. Devils don't attack in waves, they attack in a more subtle way. Instead of charging at you guns a blazing with every single Pit Fiend in creation, they will first send Cultist and a few lower ranking fiends and then slowly advance up that list until, by the power of plot you have Asmodeus looking down your shoulder. All of that order leaves plenty of time for THEM to make the wrong move. Misdirection > PaO one of the dead cultist into looking like you > Wish for a custom item of constant Mind Blank
    You have a lifetime, they have eternity. Worse, such a systematic approach coupled with an "I am all-important" attitude (not to mention regularly casting a spell with both the law and evil descriptors), means you'll probably end up in baator when you die. They've got you either way.



    Pretty sure that isn't how it works... I'm not sure where you're getting that whole "Flow of divine power" stuff, but if you could, please direct me to a page
    Starting on page 7 of FC2 from the heading "The economy of hell." The next few pages describe in no small detail how the flow of divine power goes through the chain of command. Whether it's a literal flow of power or just a chain of ownership, it's still there.

    Also, a MIGHT with a Devil isn't a sure fire 100% chance that he'll actually do it. He might just let the Layer burn for a few thousand years or a few weeks or until the Binder dies and the Duke is freed, but considering how long Wizards live, who knows when that will be?
    Bolded because it's all the more reason to arrange the wizard's untimely end if you're an underling of the creature that was called. If -someone- wasn't advanced into the boss' place, then any effort you put forward until either he's back or someone takes his place is moot since there's no superior to reward you for it. You never mess with anything in hell unless you're willing to spend the rest of eternity dealing with the consequences. Sure, you may get lucky a few times, but sooner or later your luck will run out. This is not an organization you want any part of.


    And thus we return to the whole "Killing them on their own plane" thing. Wizards are cunning little monkeys and "big A", no matter how powerful he is, knows this. He's old enough to know that there are plenty of Wizards who have been powerful enough to actually Challenge him in terms of raw power or cunning, but let's not turn this into a Fanboy challenge between whoever V Asmodeus. Asmodeus, even in all of his "infinite" power does have a limit to what he can and can't do. He is not a Wizard, nor is he a God by any definition.
    Not a wizard, no. He explicitly is a 20th level cleric, in spell-casting ability though. You're right however, in that there's not much point an Asmodeus V Random Wizard 123 discussion.
    The problem I have with this assertion is that the devils you're messing with are just as smart in many cases and they're many minds Vs your one. The odds are very decidedly against you.



    It's either the deus ex machina did it or "she picked the best target". I mean it can't be that she was just smart enough to get away with it, because it is illegal for a Wizard to actually act their intelligence score and not their shoe size
    It could've been any number of things, really, but there's no denying that she was lucky. A simple legend lore spell directed at Grazz't would've gotten a minion the name of his kidnapper, followed by a legend lore on her should've given her last known location. Finding someone who's famous, or who's connected to someone famous is trivially easy in D&D. The fact that none of Grazz't's thousands (perhaps even millions) of followers couldn't find him is lucky at best, and reeks of deux ex machina at worst. Surely you can see this.



    I shouldn't have assumed that you figured that I scryed into the guy that I wanted, but whatever. I'll add step 0 up in there.
    and add another step where you need more info and a bit of luck. Scrying sensors can be detected and you have to know something about the intended target for the actual scrying spell to function. Nevermind that any wish granting creature would have to be an utter fool not to ward himself and his home against scrying to prevent just this sort of thing.



    Which is of course in the realm of DM's fiat. On that note a Wish-based teleport is also in the realms of DM's fiat. "I wish I was in Baator", which layer? Oh! and enemies layer would be fine! "Greater teleport!" Nope! You need to have all of the papers to be their filled out in triplicate signed by your respective Duke and sent to Asmodeus himself at the Corporate office.
    Fine then, he wishes up an AMF to negate your circle (he's targetting himself so he's not breaking the RAW for the binding trap) steps outside of it, and you've got a fight on your hands. If it can wish for itself, you'd be a fool to try this.


    Arcane Mastery + Assay Spell Resistance + 20th lvl Caster = +40 to overcome a 32 SR. Can you say... "Overkill"?
    Missed that bit, but see the above "wished up AMF" comment.



    Your reason is your life. Unless of course you are going to argue with me that if someone were to put a gun to your head you wouldn't do what they asked.
    A life as your personal wish-bitch. Yeah, I'd say pull the trigger. Allowing the next will-save spell through could make the creature your personal slave virtually forever. No thinking creature will agree to it, even if they're accustomed to being someone's whipping boy. At least under that yolk he gets to make his own decisions, up to a point, or in the case of devils a chance for advancement.



    Neither do I
    Like I've been saying, you might get away with this for a while, but it -will- come back to bite you eventually.



    Actually after the binding spell goes through the Fiend is S.O.L. because it is now trapped in a bottle until it submits. Regardless it is still trapped behind the obvious Magic Circle against Evil and Magic Circle against Law.
    You've still got to get that far. Sheer dumb luck can fry you in a number of places before you even get here. Btw, what are you binding that has fewer than 10HD and is granting your wishes? It's looking more and more like efreet are the only remotely viable option here.



    Which has been your entire stance on this matter leading me to believe that you aren't going to be convinced. So if you want to continue this discussion we can do it in another thread if you'd like
    That was my stance on the creature agreeing to allow a will-save spell through for nothing in return (simply continuing to live isn't something worthwhile in this instance). I'm perfectly willing to be convinced if you can present an argument that isn't so replete with problems. I very much doubt such an argument exists though.
    I don't see a need to move this to another thread, barring a mod or the OP asking us to, since we're almost certainly getting back to efreet now.

    EDIT: I will admit that this text



    Which makes me actually contemplate dropping the idea of binding fiends and just binding Efreeti. Much easier if you truly have to go the 9 trillion yards to pop a single Pit Fiend into a bottle.
    That line is very much pertinent. The abyss is a place where demons live, Hell is an organized business. You don't mess with a devil's business.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-11-20 at 12:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Efreet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    You have a lifetime, they have eternity. Worse, such a systematic approach coupled with an "I am all-important" attitude (not to mention regularly casting a spell with both the law and evil descriptors), means you'll probably end up in baator when you die. They've got you either way.
    Death is trivially easy to overcome in D&D. So much in fact that I actually don't recall any character in the Realm or Eberron (or any D&D type setting) dying plot simply stepping in and saying "Roll up a new character!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Starting on page 7 of FC2 from the heading "The economy of hell." The next few pages describe in no small detail how the flow of divine power goes through the chain of command. Whether it's a literal flow of power or just a chain of ownership, it's still there.
    My eyes are playing stupid right now so could you please list a page

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    because it's all the more reason to arrange the wizard's untimely end if you're an underling of the creature that was called. If -someone- wasn't advanced into the boss' place, then any effort you put forward until either he's back or someone takes his place is moot since there's no superior to reward you for it. You never mess with anything in hell unless you're willing to spend the rest of eternity dealing with the consequences. Sure, you may get lucky a few times, but sooner or later your luck will run out. This is not an organization you want any part of.
    Alright lemme ask you a question: Say that you are Mephistopheles and someone has just permanently killed Asmodeus. Would you actively (and I mean put in some serious effort to the point where you probably start a few trillion eons of constant war) seek out the guy who offed him or would you move on and get to work on building your own organization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Not a wizard, no. He explicitly is a 20th level cleric, in spell-casting ability though. You're right however, in that there's not much point an Asmodeus V Random Wizard 123 discussion.
    To be more fair it would be a Cleric V Wizard 123 discussion Of course considering the fact the Wizard is immune to everything under the sun, this is generally considered moot.

    A fight like that would pretty much be like the Lady of Pain Vs Ao.

    [QUOTE=Kelb_Panthera;14253036]The problem I have with this assertion is that the devils you're messing with are just as smart in many cases and they're many minds Vs your one. The odds are very decidedly against you.

    Devil's have a level of self-importance that trumps Karsus easily. They are just as likely to fail (statistically more actually) then you are. Which explains why Heroes actually get away with the shenanigans that they pull periodically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    It could've been any number of things, really, but there's no denying that she was lucky. A simple legend lore spell directed at Grazz't would've gotten a minion the name of his kidnapper, followed by a legend lore on her should've given her last known location. Finding someone who's famous, or who's connected to someone famous is trivially easy in D&D. The fact that none of Grazz't's thousands (perhaps even millions) of followers couldn't find him is lucky at best, and reeks of deux ex machina at worst. Surely you can see this.
    Demon's aren't exactly famous for their intelligence. Perhaps not a Deux ex machina, but it does certainly reek of something hampering the Demons. Perhaps a conflicting on his Layers after his disappearance or simply fear of him kept them from looking for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    and add another step where you need more info and a bit of luck. Scrying sensors can be detected and you have to know something about the intended target for the actual scrying spell to function. Nevermind that any wish granting creature would have to be an utter fool not to ward himself and his home against scrying to prevent just this sort of thing.
    Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore on the target to learn more about it, Scry for it. All until you have the knowledge that you seek which is a simple question: "Can it use Wish now?". Moot really especially considering that a MM Efreet cannot use Wish for itself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Fine then, he wishes up an AMF to negate your circle (he's targetting himself so he's not breaking the RAW for the binding trap) steps outside of it, and you've got a fight on your hands. If it can wish for itself, you'd be a fool to try this.

    Missed that bit, but see the above "wished up AMF" comment.
    FALSENESS! HE HAS ALREADY USED HIS WISH FOR VECNA KNOWS WHAT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    A life as your personal wish-bitch. Yeah, I'd say pull the trigger. Allowing the next will-save spell through could make the creature your personal slave virtually forever. No thinking creature will agree to it, even if they're accustomed to being someone's whipping boy. At least under that yolk he gets to make his own decisions, up to a point, or in the case of devils a chance for advancement.
    No offense, but this actually disturbed me a little bit after reading it...
    Regardless! The creature does not know what spell I am going to cast immediately after agreeing to the spell. I could of course just set up some shenanigans to make him botch the save on anything short of a nat 20 (negative levels are a hell of a drug).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Like I've been saying, you might get away with this for a while, but it -will- come back to bite you eventually.
    Statistically this is quite true. Just make sure you have enough Wishes to not screw up on the first time. Hell, on your first successful wish, wish for a magical item of unlimited wishes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    You've still got to get that far. Sheer dumb luck can fry you in a number of places before you even get here. Btw, what are you binding that has fewer than 10HD and is granting your wishes? It's looking more and more like efreet are the only remotely viable option here.
    Actually it is incredibly easy to increase the characters caster level by 18 either through Spellcraft use (MoF) or Circle Magic or even magical items (Ioun Stones). Increase your caster level is child's play at 20th level. Efreeti are simply the easiest to do since you don't have to worry about retribution or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    That was my stance on the creature agreeing to allow a will-save spell through for nothing in return (simply continuing to live isn't something worthwhile in this instance). I'm perfectly willing to be convinced if you can present an argument that isn't so replete with problems. I very much doubt such an argument exists though.
    That is what disturbed me. How little value you placed on the creatures life and if you were in that situation, your own life...

    Regardless this can be done without asking "nicely" through the use of negative levels, penalties, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I don't see a need to move this to another thread, barring a mod or the OP asking us to, since we're almost certainly getting back to efreet now.
    Quite right. I'd just rather not see either a person like you get banned. Excellent participant on this forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    That line is very much pertinent. The abyss is a place where demons live, Hell is an organized business. You don't mess with a devil's business.
    Quite right. NOW TO MOVE ON TO ENSLAVE THE EFREETI!

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