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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    I like the Shugenja class, but it lacks official support.

    So I was thinking, what about adding to its spell list all the spells with an elemental descriptor?
    The spell level would be the same of the first applicable of: Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Clerical Domain, highest of any other.

    With this simple change, for example, the Sandstorm spells ``Blast of Sand'' would be a 4th level Earth spell or ``Wall of Magma'' would be a level 5th Earth and and level 5th Fire spell.

    I think it is a simple and effective way to give Shugenja a good splat book support without really making it much more powerful.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by etrpgb; 2012-11-17 at 05:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Spell Compendium actually suggests you do this, so I'd say it's perfectly fine.
    Sandharrow by Chris the Pontifex
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Spell compendium states:
    Shugenja (Complete Divine): Add spells with strong elemental or weather themes. The druid spell list is a good place to look.
    I am not sure it is the same, but I guess it might.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    I would say any spell with an elemental subtype automatically qualifies as having "a strong theme." In fact, that description indicates to me that it could go even broader - including spells that don't have the subtype, like Burrow or Earthbind for an Earth Shugenja for instance.
    Sandharrow by Chris the Pontifex
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Or the Healer spellist under the Water element... (well, maybe not Gate)

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    I think some of those bear some sanity checking. Sand and magma themed spells often have the earth descriptor, but they aren't necessarily appropriate for for original flavour of earth-based shugenja. Likewise, many ice themed spells have the water descriptor, but aren't really what water shugenja are all about.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    I think some of those bear some sanity checking. Sand and magma themed spells often have the earth descriptor, but they aren't necessarily appropriate for for original flavour of earth-based shugenja. Likewise, many ice themed spells have the water descriptor, but aren't really what water shugenja are all about.
    And why not? Are there no spirits in magma and ice?

    I would argue that the whole point of of expanding their spell list is to increase the variety of "what they are all about." Giving Water Shugenja even more healing for instance would be reasonable, but wouldn't really change their playstyle in any meaningful way.
    Sandharrow by Chris the Pontifex
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And why not? Are there no spirits in magma and ice?

    I would argue that the whole point of of expanding their spell list is to increase the variety of "what they are all about." Giving Water Shugenja even more healing for instance would be reasonable, but wouldn't really change their playstyle in any meaningful way.
    Your game, have fun with it, of course.

    Shugenja was one of the classes that was written with the intention of having a restricted spell list for flavour reasons. Adding spells outside of that specific flavour detracts from what (I perceive) the intent of the design was.

    Expanding the spell list of classes that were intentionally restricted should be about adding spells that are in-keeping with the existing spell list but weren't included due to WotC dropping the ball in supporting the class, not about making the class have a broader repertoire.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Your game, have fun with it, of course.

    Shugenja was one of the classes that was written with the intention of having a restricted spell list for flavour reasons. Adding spells outside of that specific flavour detracts from what (I perceive) the intent of the design was.

    Expanding the spell list of classes that were intentionally restricted should be about adding spells that are in-keeping with the existing spell list but weren't included due to WotC dropping the ball in supporting the class, not about making the class have a broader repertoire.
    Well, if you want to play a game without Tier 1 characters, you can let the Shugenja spell list as it is.

    If you like the Shugenja, want to play one, but you already have a Wizard, Cleric or Druid in your party, then you have to do something to avoid feeling the lame spellscarter of the litter.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-11-17 at 03:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    Well, if you want to play a game without Tier 1 characters, you can let the Shugenja spell list as it is.

    If you like the Shugenja, want to play one, but you already have a Wizard, Cleric or Druid in your party, then you have to do something to avoid feeling the lame spellscarter of the litter.
    So your goal is to make another tier 1 class?

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Shugenja was one of the classes that was written with the intention of having a restricted spell list for flavour reasons. Adding spells outside of that specific flavour detracts from what (I perceive) the intent of the design was.
    And yet, it was WotC's idea, not mine.
    Besides, they are still restricted by their spells known, regardless of how large the potential pool is, and on top of that are restricted by both their element and order. So I think you will find that, in practice, the power level of Shugenja won't change that much. T1 is flat-out impossible, and T2 would require very powerful spells be added to their list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Expanding the spell list of classes that were intentionally restricted should be about adding spells that are in-keeping with the existing spell list but weren't included due to WotC dropping the ball in supporting the class, not about making the class have a broader repertoire.
    But you can't say for sure that wasn't WotC's intent. It could be that, after writing SPC, they said "yeah, we dropped the ball and {these classes} should have more spells." Unless you were there at the time, you can't say for certain that this didn't happen; all we know is that they thought it was a good idea to tell DMs that SpC was fair game.
    Sandharrow by Chris the Pontifex
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    So your goal is to make another tier 1 class?
    I have no goal, I'm not playing a Shugenja. I'm just saying that, if you are playing a Shugenja and don't like feeling the lamest spellcaster, it would be all right to add a few more elemental spells to its spell-list (and I don't think the Shugenja would become a Tier 1 that way, just a Tier 2 class).

    Some people dislike Tier 1 classes because they are overpowered and overshadow the other members of the party, and like Oriental Shamans and Shugenjas for that very reason, and that's fine: You can play a game without Druids, Wizards or Clerics, and everybody else will have more chances to shine.

    On the other hand, if the others are playing a Wizard, a Druid, an Erudite and a Cleric, the Shugenja feels useless.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-11-17 at 04:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    I have no goal, I'm not playing a Shugenja. I'm just saying that, if you are playing a Shugenja and don't like feeling the lamest spellcaster...
    Hello shugenja, I'd like you to meet the paladin, duskblade, ranger, hexblade, shadowcaster, binder, beguiler, and truenamer.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Hello shugenja, I'd like you to meet the paladin, duskblade, ranger, hexblade, shadowcaster, binder, beguiler, and truenamer.
    The paladin, ranger, duskblade, hexblade and beguiler aren't primary spellcasters, they are warrior/casters or skilled guys/sneakies/casters.

    I'm not sure the binder can be called a primary caster, either. The pacts give you a mix of extraordinary attacks, spell-like powers, supernatural attacks, physical enhancements...etc., but that doesn't look like casting.

    The shadowcaster and truenamer are underpowered, yes. If a shugenja were part of a party with shadowcasters, truenamers and binders, the shugenja wouldn't be underpowered.

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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    It depends upon the campaign, but allowing a Shugenja to research appropriate spells (from the SpC) might be a good approach.

    Otherwise the DM has a lot of work upfront, which can be avoided.
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    Default Re: Enlarging Shugenja list with spells with elemental descriptor

    The idea was making the Shugenja more various keeping them in Tier 3. So I agree that the whole list might be eccessive.

    What about adding Advanced Learning at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 and in each you gain a new spell with elemental descriptor (of course not of the forbidden element) similarly at the Beguiller power?
    Last edited by etrpgb; 2012-11-18 at 06:14 AM.

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