Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    First, to my players: no. Just no.



    So, I have a couple questions about bluffing, one each for a PC and NPC in my campaign. Oddly enough (and I didn't plan this) they're both beguilers:

    1. The NPC beguiler is a running villain whose original cover was blown, and he's developing a new cover identity as a druid. Is there any conceivable way he could bluff an actual druid into thinking he's one of them? He'd need at least a few words of Druidic, but is that stretching Bluff a little too far?

    2. The PC beguiler is an elf native to the Moonshaes, where arcane casters aren't always welcome, so he passes himself off as a bard. (Not as contradictory as it seems, since bards are lionized in the Moonshaes.) Can he use a Bluff check instead of a Perform check, maybe helped along by Ghost Sound? And could one Bluff check cover an entire evening's performance, if he really had to?
    .
    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2012-11-18 at 12:25 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    toapat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    1: only so long as he can avoid the very easy to screw him over with "Ok, so become a Wolf"

    2: Yes, he can


    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    I use Red when I'm angry, I use blue when I'm excited.
    Drow avatar @ myself

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Jungian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    He could bluff a Druid into believing he is a fellow Druid, but not by speaking Druidic. It's a secret language know only by Druids, so without being one there is conceivable way of the beguiler knowing the language. I don't think Druids instantly began speaking Druidic when they encounter another druid, I always imagined it being only spoken during the most sacred of rituals. Druids also have a high wisdom score, so his lies would need to be well crafted.

    He is a beguiler using any of his image spells can make for a perfectly suited performance.
    Last edited by Jungian; 2012-11-18 at 12:36 AM.
    Character Sheets


    The week of June 17, my time to post will be reduced. Expect for posting to return to full capacity by June 24.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Good to hear the Beguiler survived. I was rooting for him

    1a. "Listen, it's been a rough day. I blew through all my Wildshapes and some moron strapped a breastplate to me so I can't use my powers till I get an Atonement".

    1b. "I traded magic for wilderness lore" (pretend as though he took ACFs to trade out his magic-stuff).


    2. Bards are arcane casters . Passing as a Bard won't help there.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-11-18 at 03:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    If the Druid is wise then he might be caught out
    • He doesn't speak Druidic, as has been pointed out.
    • If he casts any spells then a Spellcraft check might tell the Druid that he cast a an arcane spell.
    • He might make some ideological gaff.
    • The Druid will probably have Woodland Stride and Trackless Step, so this might give him away if he meets the Druid in the forest.


    Everything else is down to the Bluff roll.
    Last edited by nedz; 2012-11-18 at 10:32 AM.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
    Good to hear the Beguiler survived. I was rooting for him.
    I was astounded. They had him at the point of a knife...and then they let him go.

    Not only that, but they tried to cast Charm Person on him, to make him more amenable to going elsewhere. He made his save and shrugged it off...but being a slippery one, he fooled them into thinking he'd been charmed, and then immediately set about following them.

    Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
    Bards are arcane casters. Passing as a Bard won't help there.
    Actually in the Moonshaes it will, because of the local culture. They're extremely suspicious of anything that smacks of wizardry or sorcery, but they don't consider bards to be in the same category. In the Moonshaes, bards are revered and gladly welcomed, so passing as a bard is a good call.

    Also, your "1a" is hilarious. That's definitely the line he'll be taking. Druids of Mielikki are common on the mainland, but the druids in the Moonshaes are very traditional. ("You touched metal?! --To the sweat lodge with you!")

    Originally Posted by Jungian
    I don't think Druids instantly began speaking Druidic when they encounter another druid, I always imagined it being only spoken during the most sacred of rituals.
    Well, I've always seen Druidic as a living language rather than a ritual one, and in my campaigns druids speak it among themselves whenever they meet. This poses a real challenge for my villainous beguiler. He can talk his way around most issues (thanks to Slipperychicken's talking points ) but Druidic will be a major obstacle.

    The other druid would give him a greeting in Druidic, and the beguiler might repeat it and try to bluff his way through, but after that he'd be on thin ice indeed. The "wounded bird" approach is probably best (out of spells, out of wildshapes, tricked into wearing metal, etc.) but he'd need a reeeeeeeally good reason not to be explaining all this in Druidic.

    My only hope here is that, wisdom or no, druids usually don't put a lot of effort into Sense Motive. The beguiler, meanwhile, has a +15 Bluff mod, so he might just get lucky.
    .
    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2012-11-18 at 09:41 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Random NPC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Perhaps, rather than "joining" a official circle, he "became" a druid naturally. That is he "learned" his powers and abilities from nature itself and therefore doesn't know Druidic. After all, what use does nature have with language.
    See when a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, you can bet we've bought the vinyl.
    -Snow White

    Avatar by Chd

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Well, I've always seen Druidic as a living language rather than a ritual one, and in my campaigns druids speak it among themselves whenever they meet. This poses a real challenge for my villainous beguiler. He can talk his way around most issues (thanks to Slipperychicken's talking points ) but Druidic will be a major obstacle.
    Tounges. Obstacle removed.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Bonus Languages
    ...
    A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.

    Druidic has its own alphabet.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Tongues
    ...

    This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.
    Well that is debatable.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    toapat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Assuming that you are allowing Knowledge Checks to identify other druids, all it comes down to is a simple checklist to break any bluff asto whether you can perform certain classes. Mundanes are easy (you can just cherrypick classes to lie about. just claim to be a Rogue), Arcanes slightly less, while Divines are near impossible as a result of their class restrictions.


    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    I use Red when I'm angry, I use blue when I'm excited.
    Drow avatar @ myself

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Well that is debatable.
    Hardly."Whether white, black, or purple, we're all God's Children." "What about red?"

    "Whether it is a racial tongue or regional dialect" does nothing to narrow the "language of any intelligent creature," as the phrasing is not exclusive. If it read "As long as it is a racial tongue or regional dialect," then the fact that druidic was a secret language would matter, because that is exclusive phrasing. If it left out the "language of any intelligent creature" you could then say that "racial tongue or regional dialect" was a comprehensive list. But, that phrase is there, so you can't.

    Now, if you wish to argue that druids are not intelligent... It is a dump stat for them, after all :D
    Last edited by Deophaun; 2012-11-18 at 12:00 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Originally Posted by Deophaun
    Tounges. Obstacle removed.
    Hm. I'm actually not seeing Tongues on the beguiler spell list. (No tounges, either. )

    However, he does have Detect Thoughts and Comprehend Languages, and between the two of those he might just squeak by. He has the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick, so he might put one over on the druid.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Well I think that it could be interpreted either way, but its probably not worth debating, especially since it would appear to be entirely academic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Now, if you wish to argue that druids are not intelligent... It is a dump stat for them, after all :D
    Cast Touch of Idiocy before you shake their hand
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Norin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Faerűn
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Hm. I'm actually not seeing Tongues on the beguiler spell list. (No tounges, either. )
    Advanced learning and some houseruling would work fine there. It's supposed to be limited to Ill\Ench spells, but i do not see why a Divination spell like that would break the game.

    Or by all means, UMD + Tongues wand or even a Tongues potion?
    Cheap stuff that would be plausible and doable.
    "If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance."
    Check out t2t mud if you are interested - a text based multi user RPG set in Tolkien's Middle Earth.
    Elf Duskblade avatar by Cuthalion.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Well, nice in theory, but at the moment the beguiler is in a small fishing town on a backwater island where even a first-level scroll would be a huge wondrous deal. A wand of Tongues would be worth more than every fishing-boat in the harbor, and probably most of the homes as well.

    And as it happens, the beguiler has been...relieved of his gadgets, magic items and other gear, courtesy of the PCs, so all he's got are his quick wits, his smooth tongue, and the spells he woke up with.

    He's been having a pretty tough week, but he will get that halfling. Somehow, some day, he'll get that halfling.


  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Hm. I'm actually not seeing Tongues on the beguiler spell list. (No tounges, either. )

    However, he does have Detect Thoughts and Comprehend Languages, and between the two of those he might just squeak by. He has the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick, so he might put one over on the druid.
    If you can find a way to understand Druidic (fairly easy with magic), they you simply need a reason not to speak it.

    A good option here is for the NPC to simply pass as mute. Then you're only tripped up by writing.

    I would suggest finding a some way to communicate without speaking.
    My preference would be to have custom magic item made and learn Drow Sign language.

    Continuous ring of Nystul's Magical Aura & Comprehend Languages is safely under 10k gold (what with the 1st level spells and all).

    EDIT, given the limited item availability post:
    If you can pass the Comprehend Languages without the Magical Aura, Comprehend Languages is actually on your list.
    Last edited by Hecuba; 2012-11-18 at 03:58 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Troll in the Playground
     
    toapat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecuba View Post
    If you can find a way to understand Druidic (fairly easy with magic), they you simply need a reason not to speak it.

    A good option here is for the NPC to simply pass as mute. Then you're only tripped up by writing.

    I would suggest finding a some way to communicate without speaking.
    My preference would be to have custom magic item made and learn Drow Sign language.

    Continuous ring of Nystul's Magical Aura & Comprehend Languages is safely under 10k gold (what with the 1st level spells and all).

    EDIT, given the limited item availability post:
    If you can pass the Comprehend Languages without the Magical Aura, Comprehend Languages is actually on your list.
    here is the problem. druids have a spell for muteness.

    on the other hand, last i knew druidic was not allowed as a written language


    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    I use Red when I'm angry, I use blue when I'm excited.
    Drow avatar @ myself

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    here is the problem. druids have a spell for muteness.
    Really? Last I checked, muteness isn't covered by spells in either direction: it's not even on the delineated list for heal. Blindness, deafness, assorted diseases, but not muteness.

    I am, however, away from my books, so I cannot check. Is it in spell compendium?
    Last edited by Hecuba; 2012-11-18 at 04:36 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    on the other hand, last i knew druidic was not allowed as a written language
    Well it has its own alphabet (see my quote from the SRD in #9) so it would be a bit silly if you couldn't then write it.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Troll in the Playground
     
    toapat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecuba View Post
    Really? Last I checked, muteness isn't covered by spells in either direction: it's not even on the delineated list for heal. Blindness, deafness, assorted diseases, but not muteness.

    I am, however, away from my books, so I cannot check. Is it in spell compendium?
    part of Regenerate's ability is to restore ruined/lost organs and limbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Well it has its own alphabet (see my quote from the SRD in #9) so it would be a bit silly if you couldn't then write it.
    The restrictions of using druidic also apply to the written language.


    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    I use Red when I'm angry, I use blue when I'm excited.
    Drow avatar @ myself

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    part of Regenerate's ability is to restore ruined/lost organs and limbs.
    That would seem to depend on whether the mutism was caused by physical damage or simply the natural lack of vocal chords.

    Additionally, mutism can also be psychologically triggered.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Druidic certainly has a written form in my game, and the beguiler would have even less of a chance at faking it than the spoken language.

    Probably the best he can manage is to use a combination of Comprehend Languages and Detect Thoughts to guess at the meaning of certain basic words--both what the druid is speaking, and what the druid might expect to hear in reply--and then try bluffing for all he's worth to survive a basic conversation.

    Charm Person, if he succeeds, might at least let the druid be more charitable about the beguiler's lapses in the language. ("Poor fellow, being bashed on the head with a metal shield certainly affected his declensions of the plural nominative....") With a good enough Bluff check, a little creative slurring might work wonders.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
     
    toapat's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecuba View Post
    That would seem to depend on whether the mutism was caused by physical damage or simply the natural lack of vocal chords.

    Additionally, mutism can also be psychologically triggered.
    nothing in core that druids get would fix a Vow of Silence

    born without vocal cords i would expect druids to see as lost/ruined organs.


    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    I use Red when I'm angry, I use blue when I'm excited.
    Drow avatar @ myself

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •