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    biggrin How Stupid is Stupid!

    Been having a few discussions and minor disagreements on intelligence scores and was hoping to get a few opinions on acceptable actions for low level intelligence.

    Example.
    When a spell casters familiar gets to say 10-11 intelligence my PC's generally think they should act with common sense and have the ability to work through puzzles or notice pattens/dangers. Which I generally agree with but I still feel that an int 10 Cat is still a Cat and having never been to school or had the experiences that the PC's had wouldn't make the same assumptions (even more so when they were lower int just a few moments before but then had a spell cast upon them)

    How human-like would you allow familiars to act?

    More importantly is the ability to order Summoned Monsters.
    Summoning Fiendish monsters gives them Int 3 and a language (which if the player speaks then they can give orders) but just because they know a language doesn't mean they can understand what you shout at them to do in the middle of a battle...

    What Orders would you (The impartial Player or DM) expect your Fiendish Direwolf to be able to obey?

    Flank them?
    Grapple that man?
    Go cause a distraction and lead them away?
    Don't attack that man he's an illusion.

    Just how stupid do you play int 3?
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Presumably, comprehending a language means knowing what a words means in relation to your life experience. While a fiendish Direwolf might not know what a university is, it would understand the principles of flanking and grappling. Causing a distraction would probably also be feasible, especially if you explained it basically. Wisdom is largely more important for common sense things, such as what combat option makes sense here. Knowing something is an illusion and you shouldn't attack it doesn't mean you have to know what an illusion is either.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    I don't know about Familiars since they are pretty firmly in the "A wizard did it" area, specifically when you introduce magic the outcomes don't necessarily have to make any kind of sense at all. It's worth noting though that ability scores are absolutes not relatives. 12 Int is smart for a human, never mind a cat. That familiar inst just smart compared to other animals of its kind, its smart compared to a fair number of (non-PC, cause PC's are awesome) people. Remember 10 is human average. A +0 neither good nor bad.

    On the subject of summons though, you need to share a language to give them complex orders. Without that they just go after the nearest enemy. The Celestial/Fiendish templates don't grant a language unless the base creature already had one, neither does the magical beast type, so you'll never be able to give orders to those. I used to assume the higher than animal intelligence automatically granted one until I noticed the example Celestial Animal doesn't have the ability to speak noted in its stat block.

    In terms of complex orders they might understand though, if it can be said they can do it, just remember a round of combat is 6 seconds, short orders like "Flank them!" "Go left!" or "Protect me!". Not like you've got time to plot out a football play, just shout a quick word or two.

    Edit: If you don't think a supernaturally smart animal could have powers of reason and logic, you've clearly never owned a pet. I had a cat as a child that had figured out how to open doors, would go after his food at the source and knock over the big bag of catfood if I forget to feed him and, my mom has informed me that he learned when I was supposed to get home from school and would be waiting for me, and got agitated if I was late.

    This from a mundane animal. I'm sure anybody else with a pet could add their own stories. So yea magically smart? Give him the Sudoku book, he'll be thrilled.
    Last edited by TypoNinja; 2012-11-18 at 06:57 AM.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    I'd also say that it would screw over summoners pretty badly if their summoned creature couldn't even follow simple orders, especially things like "Flank them" or "Grapple him". I'd allow basic tactics, it's more fun that way.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    On the subject of summons though, you need to share a language to give them complex orders. Without that they just go after the nearest enemy. The Celestial/Fiendish templates don't grant a language unless the base creature already had one, neither does the magical beast type, so you'll never be able to give orders to those. I used to assume the higher than animal intelligence automatically granted one until I noticed the example Celestial Animal doesn't have the ability to speak noted in its stat block.
    Let's go to the SRD...
    A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).
    So, the fact that it doesn't mention an ability to speak in the celestial animal stat block means the celestial animal understands common.

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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    When I'm just going to have the minions autoattack the nearest enemy anyway, my DM usually lets me (as a player, not my character) control them directly, establishing flanks and such.

    When we're in a situation where any kind of subtlety or finesse is required.... That monster doesn't know what targets to prioritize, it's just going go autoattack the nearest opponent, maybe use a combat maneuver if it's really obvious, and continue attacking downed opponents if it can't see any more. I can't call them off or get them to chase down runners when there's still adjacent enemies to stomp. This is why I like to use intelligent summons, for more strategy and control.

    Sometimes the DM takes over the summons, when they have multiple courses of action and my PC can't direct them. I'm fine with that because they aren't part of my character, and it makes sense for "dumb" animals to not automatically know my PCs priorities in battle.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    The familiars that my characters have and that belong to characters I've run for almost always have human intelligence appropriate to their Int score. My reasoning is very simple: when an animal is bound to a caster, it ceases to be just an animal. Mechanically, it's now a magical beast. A familiar is not an animal companion - it's a literal extension of the caster's will and personality. The caster invests a portion of their essence into the familiar, and that cost cannot be recovered (XP loss on familiar death or dismissal).

    At that point, how a normal animal would act really doesn't have any bearing on the actions of a supernaturally-created gestalt entity like a familiar.

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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    I'm amused that a Sorcerer might have less intelligence than their familiar.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    I'm amused that a Sorcerer might have less intelligence than their familiar.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    All of the examples in the OP for int 3 summons seem reasonable, if in slight need of adjusting. An int 3 might not know what "illusion" means, but "not real" is probably perfectly valid. Or even just "not a threat". I wouldn't allow anything like, "climb up on that ledge and wait until the wizard starts casting then pounce on him and keep him pinned" because while each individual part is simple enough, the overall command is longer than I'd credit an int 3 for being able to keep straight.

    Familiars can probably understand what their masters want pretty easily, but depending on the animal might have their own interpretation on how to best achieve results. And physical limitations. I mean, toads don't exactly have the same options as ravens, and neither has actual hands. Animal familiars might still have species quirks, like the cat that toys with things, the raven that love shiny objects. Worst case is the familiar that believes it is in a partnership, and simply won't blindly follow orders.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranting Fool View Post
    Example.
    When a spell casters familiar gets to say 10-11 intelligence my PC's generally think they should act with common sense and have the ability to work through puzzles or notice pattens/dangers. Which I generally agree with but I still feel that an int 10 Cat is still a Cat and having never been to school or had the experiences that the PC's had wouldn't make the same assumptions (even more so when they were lower int just a few moments before but then had a spell cast upon them)

    How human-like would you allow familiars to act?
    Fairly. A familiar is not a [cat] anymore. A familiar knows quite a bit more, including a fair bit to most of what its master knows by virtue of gaining its knowledge skill ranks. And it is able to acquire new knowledge fairly readily from its experiences and surroundings.

    It's going to be as capable of understanding a concept as a human who has never encountered it before, like explaining a train to someone from, say, Micronesia who has never seen or heard of one before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranting Fool View Post
    More importantly is the ability to order Summoned Monsters.
    Summoning Fiendish monsters gives them Int 3 and a language (which if the player speaks then they can give orders) but just because they know a language doesn't mean they can understand what you shout at them to do in the middle of a battle...
    Honestly, I found this idea to be more of a headache than an immersive, fun feature of the game, so I and all the groups I've played with have just allowed them to act as chess pieces within their physical abilities and skill sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranting Fool View Post
    What Orders would you (The impartial Player or DM) expect your Fiendish Direwolf to be able to obey?

    Flank them?
    Grapple that man?
    Go cause a distraction and lead them away?
    Don't attack that man he's an illusion.

    Just how stupid do you play int 3?
    Int 2 animals know how to flank.

    Grappling is something they should know how to do and if they can learn it as a trick for Int 2 they can get it down at Int 3.

    Distraction's trickier and so is leading them away, depends upon how it's phrased and the knowledge base of the particular int 3 creature, I think. Certainly I can see it following an order to attack X creature then withdraw as long as pursued and then attack the nearest creature and repeat if it stops being pursued.

    Don't attack him, attack someone else I can certainly see. Or just don't attack. Depends on if the creature knows what an illusion is beforehand as well and how much it trusts/obeys its master. As a summon though, it's going to not attack X when told not to attack X.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-11-18 at 02:56 PM.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Something interesting I just noticed, it doesn't appear that Pathfinder has the same limit on intelligence for summons, at least not that I saw on the SRD. So anything you summon would be just as intelligent as normal, but would be forced to obey you...that's kind of interesting to note, at least I think so. Maybe it says in one of the books that they have the intelligence limit, and if so I'd appreciate someone showing me, as this could be relevant for a campaign I'm going to run soon...
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    I tend to view familiars in much the same way as they are presented in your typical Disney animated movie (and aren't they all typical?), basically as anthropomorphic animals, but without the capability to speak (most of them, anyway). As magical creatures spiritually or otherwise connected to a wizard, they gain a special kind of intelligence which I liken to that of a really crafty and/or mischievous 10-year-old.

    As far as the 3 Intelligence thing goes . . . I've always had a problem with this. If 10 is the average intelligence for a human, and 16 is generally considered genius-level, then conversely, a 3 Int has to be dumber than a drunk vegetable. I fail to see how any creature with a 3 Int would be able to even understand the concept of flanking.

    It's always been a house rule of mine that summoned creatures are not actual members of whichever species is summoned, but rather a magical construct that simply takes on the form of the species. This gets around the basic intelligence rule and allows the summoner to play the summoned creature as tactfully as he desires. Since it's just a magical construct subject to his control, it does not possess any innate characteristics. It simply is what it is.

    Of course, this rule is not used when summoning specific creatures, or use of the spell Gate. I reserve it for the various summon monster spells.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    An int 2 animal only knows to flank by instinct; only pack animals would think of it. I'd say an int 3 person couldn't handle most basic tactics except those falling under instinct appropriate to their animal.

    For that matter instinct and lack of experience would play some role even for an int 10 animal. Family Guy has some good examples with the baby (inexperienced but smart) and the dog (instinctive). A lot is for humor but you can still get some decent ideas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Honestly, I found this idea to be more of a headache than an immersive, fun feature of the game, so I and all the groups I've played with have just allowed them to act as chess pieces within their physical abilities and skill sets.
    Actually this came up in a game I ran, when a Wizard summoned himself up an earth elemental because he needed a boost. What followed was a short but humorous game of charades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Presumably, comprehending a language means knowing what a words means in relation to your life experience.
    Not if your vocabulary is...what's the word I'm looking for? It means not good. The opposite of good. Ungood? Nongood? Ingood? What's that word?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    Actually this came up in a game I ran, when a Wizard summoned himself up an earth elemental because he needed a boost. What followed was a short but humorous game of charades.
    That's language silliness, not intelligence silliness.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    On familiars, there was a passage in the Draconomicon dealing with dragons in and around the party. I think what I'm thinking of might be dealing with cohorts specifically, but it doesn't really matter.

    Anyway, the short of it was any dragon the Party could have control of (Cohort, Mount, Familiar, or even Character) was probably going to be pretty young, and frequently a hatchling. the thing is, even as hatchlings, certain dragons are already smarter than humans, and the question was how you played it off.

    The answer that they came up with was while they're smart, they're still basically children. They might act selfishly or throw tantrums or whatever.



    Anyway, how this comes back to the question about familiars is basically this- your cat might be smarter than your party's beatface, but he's still a cat- He might know objectively the price of the Circle of Nine Kings' Elder-Curtains and the consequences for shredding them, but...
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    As far as I can see the only quantatative differences between Int 2 and Int 3 are the ability to understand one language and a +5 to the DC of the Handle Animal skill.

    This has come up in our game before. Our sorcerer gets free use of his Celestial Bison as long as it's attacking enemies. When he wants the summons to do anything else the first question is if he can talk with it (he does not speak celestial which is our default for celestial critters) and then the untrained Handle Animal skill check comes up. He's destroyed magical loot trying to get his summons to dig it out of ice.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    First off, as for using education and real world experience, remember that a familiar gets to use either its natural skill ranks or its master's whichever is better. That cat may be just a cat as far as looks go, however, due to the nature of magic and the bond between caster and familiar, that cat may also have extensive knowledge and world experience shared with the caster. That being said, looking straight at intelligence alone:


    Int 3, as the minimum for sentience, is like speaking to a 3 or 4 year old. Just intelligent enough to actually understand that they exist, have feelings, and understand basic concepts even if they can't always repeat them. Int 10 is the average Joe Shmoe. Not particularly smart or dumb. Side note, averages for other races is 10 + racial modifier; 10 is just human average.

    Also, straight from 3.5 PHB spell list for Summon Nature's Ally, "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

    So, in summary, an Int 10 familiar is going to be able to understand things and act as the average human, perhaps even speaking known languages through magic or an ability (raven familiar for example). As a rule of thumb, that Int 3 Fiendish Dire Wolf is going to be able to perform any command that you give it as long as it is capable and a toddler could understand. Note that I didn't say follow. While a child is going to be combative and stubborn to commands, a summoned creature should be neither.
    Last edited by AlchemicalMyst; 2012-11-18 at 07:04 PM.

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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Ah, the "familiar intelligence" thing. I've always been bugged by that sort of thing. Especially because Advanced Familiars tend to have 10 or more INT that inexplicably gets lowered because the caster isn't a high enough level.
    How I handled it was that my first familiar, a Hawk, very rarely provided input, because outside of combat he rarely knew what was going on, even when understanding Common. If he did, it was heavily filtered through animal logic. For example, he had an extreme distaste for the party monk due to her considerable strength being utterly wasted by her cowardice and worry about intangible things.
    In contrast, my second familiar, a Pseudodragon (see avatar), proved mostly as intelligent as the rest of the party, save for the fact that he was very immature, the most obvious being that he had a very prominent Berserk Button activated by calling him a "pet," especially after he'd proven his intelligence.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Redwolf View Post
    Something interesting I just noticed, it doesn't appear that Pathfinder has the same limit on intelligence for summons, at least not that I saw on the SRD. So anything you summon would be just as intelligent as normal, but would be forced to obey you...that's kind of interesting to note, at least I think so. Maybe it says in one of the books that they have the intelligence limit, and if so I'd appreciate someone showing me, as this could be relevant for a campaign I'm going to run soon...
    You appear to have misunderstood.

    Summoned creatures don't have their int reset to 3 as a result of being summoned. The int 3 question came up because a significant portion of the creatures on the summon monster list are animals or vermin with the fiendish or celestial template; creatures that normally only have int 1 or 2 that have that value increased to 3 as a result of applying the template.

    Other summoned creatures still have their normal int scores and are probably better choices if you have something complex in mind when you cast the spell.
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    Default Re: How Stupid is Stupid!

    Alright, that's what I was wondering because once you get up to higher level summons you get outsiders and whatnot, who are clearly intelligent. Thank you.
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