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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Optimizing Inteligence

    A buddy of mine is trying to optimize a Wizard to have the highest possible intelligence. We've decided upon Wizard casting, and would like to not lose caster levels if possible, unless LA would be worth the cost. No one in our group is much for optimization, so the best we could come up with is about 40, but I know I've seen higher than that on these boards before. Oh, and we want to keep this at level 20 or lower. Any help?
    Last edited by Noctis Vigil; 2012-11-18 at 05:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    What level are we looking at?

    What have you already seen? Would be a waste if we all said things you are aware of.

    How much gold does said character have? Is he willing to carry around a bunch of magic items for this?
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Magic items: any, but no incarnum.

    Wealth is standard WBL.

    Level is any level, up to level 20.

    My buddy was thinking of the Paragon template (+15 Int), but I don't think that's the best option. I know you can use Wish for a +5 enhancement bonus, and a tome for a +5 inherent bonus, and an item for a +6 bonus. What am I missing?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    What sources are useable? Which ones are banned? What do you have that is for homebrewing? Stuff like that.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Sources: no Magic of Incarnum, no Tome of Magic. Homebrew allowed on a case-by-case basis.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    How did you get up to 40 int?

    If you play as a Black Ethergaunt from Fiend Folio you get a +20 racial bonus to int, so you can get it up to 53. It comes with 16 HD, 4 LA and 17 free levels of wizard casting, so it's ECL 20. You lose 3 caster levels, but your int is so high you've still got more spells than most level 20 wizards.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Magic items: any, but no incarnum.

    Wealth is standard WBL.

    Level is any level, up to level 20.

    My buddy was thinking of the Paragon template (+15 Int), but I don't think that's the best option. I know you can use Wish for a +5 enhancement bonus, and a tome for a +5 inherent bonus, and an item for a +6 bonus. What am I missing?
    This is not true. Wish grants an inherent bonus, it is the same as the tome. The item gives an enhancement bonus. In principle, without weird stuff, the base maximum is as follows:

    18 (base) + 5 (level up bonus at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20) +5 inherent (tome/wish) +6 enhancement (headband) + X racial (if the race has a LA, the level bonus is accordingly smaller at level 20).

    I think standard Grey elf is the best non-LA option (barring negative level adjustment stuff), which can reach 36.
    Last edited by Autopsibiofeeder; 2012-11-18 at 06:21 PM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Actually I think Dragonwrought kobold is better, since that's +3 to int instead of +2.

    Well, you could play a venerable grey elf (or fire elf) for +5 int, but then your physical stats suck. Of course, if you get killed and brought back by Last Breath (from SpC) then you're golden, since you've got a new young adult body of a different race, but you get to keep physical stats.

    If you allow a fire grey elf then that's +4 to int with another +3 for venerable. And then a +2 from the Elf Paragon PrC. So that's +9 to int in total.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Fire grey elf is not a valid class by Raw. If it were, you could go with a fire grey sun elf, because con is a dump stat, right?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Fire elf? Where is that, I want to look it up.

    Also, how much more can we boost this if we make it gestalt?

    Current build:
    Base Int 18
    Grey elf (+2int)
    Venerable age (+3int)
    Level 20 (+5int)

    gestalt side one:
    15 Paragon template (+15int)
    3 elf paragon (+2int)
    2 Cloistered Cleric (for Lore)

    gestalt side two:
    Wizard 20

    items:
    +6int item
    +5int Wish/tome

    Current total: 56Int (+23 mod)


    Now, we're willing to shoot those two levels of Cloistered Cleric. Does anyone know any LA0-2 templates that boost Int?

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    None that come to mind... But, I'd think that Factotum 1/Warblade 1 would be a better choice. Factotum 1 gives you +int to a saving throw twice per encounter, and warblade gives you Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Does anyone know any LA0-2 templates that boost Int?
    Intellectual Prodigy from DMG2 should suffice.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Fire elf? Where is that, I want to look it up.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    15 Paragon template (+15int)
    The Paragon template doesn't have a listed LA- only a CR increase. Unless there's a version with a LA in another book, you can't apply it to a PC.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Black ethergaunt (FF 65):
    16 outsider HDs + 4 LA (ECL 20)
    +2 Str +6 Dex +4 con +20 int +4 wis +4 cha
    Casts as a 17th level wizard (9th level spells)
    Can ignore any arcane spell allowing SR

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Stu42 View Post
    The Paragon template doesn't have a listed LA- only a CR increase. Unless there's a version with a LA in another book, you can't apply it to a PC.
    I perused the internet looking for LA, and decided after reading many of the arguments to settle on LA15, although I may change it later depending on the power of other player's characters.

    Hmm...Black Ethergaunt. How would that work in gestalt? If you take that on one side and Paragon on the other, you net out to +35Int, +6 Item, +5 Wish/tome, +18 Base, +5 level up, +3 Venerable age, +4 Studious. If all three of your level ups are in Wizard, this gets you casting as a 20th level Wizard, with an Int of 73.

    I like.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Honestly, Paragon is far overpowered for only 15 ECL. I once played a paragon with the ECL at 21, and it was still more effective than the other players.

    Also, gestalting wouldn't add to your caster level. If you have the Ethergaunt with caster level 17 on one side, you can't take levels of wizard on the other side in order to bump up your caster level. Gestalt or no, the Ethergaunt can only have CL 17 pre epic.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    What page is the intellectual prodigy template in DMG 2 on? I am not having any luck finding it.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    What page is the intellectual prodigy template in DMG 2 on? I am not having any luck finding it.
    Its under unique abilities, and is generally for npcs only.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Persisted greater visage of the deity (via incantatrix or other means) adds +4. +6 if you can find a way to constantly be under the effects of both versions of the spells.
    Worm of Minauros (FC2) adds +1
    Persisted necrotic empowerment gives you an enhancement bonus of +8.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Fire elf? Where is that, I want to look it up.

    Also, how much more can we boost this if we make it gestalt?

    Current build:
    Base Int 18
    Grey elf (+2int)
    Venerable age (+3int)
    Level 20 (+5int)

    gestalt side one:
    15 Paragon template (+15int)
    3 elf paragon (+2int)
    2 Cloistered Cleric (for Lore)

    gestalt side two:
    Wizard 20

    items:
    +6int item
    +5int Wish/tome

    Current total: 56Int (+23 mod)
    If you're allowed to use artifacts, then you can get up to a +8 untyped bonus from a Halruuan Elixir. You can get stacking untyped +1 bonuses for each Soul Elixir you drink as well (no limit).

    Additionally, you can also use Extract Gift on the appropriate target for a massive INT boost (enhancement). Making it supernatural (by whatever means, including having it duplicated by Wish via a Zodar or getting a Dweomerkeeper to cast it for you) will allow you to keep it permanently with no chance of dispel/disjoining. Get the right target, and you're pushing a +15 or higher enhancement boost to your INT score.

    On top of that, custom magic items of +6 INT (sacred, insight, morale, profane, and so on) will further increase your score. Off the top of my head, Malcanthet in Dungeon #149 can offer a +4 profane boost to any one ability score, but there are almost certainly others - her ability is just a modified and improved version of the Lilitu +2 profane bonus.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleran View Post
    If you're allowed to use artifacts, then you can get up to a +8 untyped bonus from a Halruuan Elixir. You can get stacking untyped +1 bonuses for each Soul Elixir you drink as well (no limit).

    Additionally, you can also use Extract Gift on the appropriate target for a massive INT boost (enhancement). Making it supernatural (by whatever means, including having it duplicated by Wish via a Zodar or getting a Dweomerkeeper to cast it for you) will allow you to keep it permanently with no chance of dispel/disjoining. Get the right target, and you're pushing a +15 or higher enhancement boost to your INT score.
    How are you getting a demon's int mod all the way to +30, to receive a bonus of +15? The highest int for a demon that isn't unique is 25 (Sibriex, FC1), I believe, which means you'd need to boost its int by +45 to get the +30 modifier for a +15 bonus to the recipient. Even getting a +16 modifier on the donor to beat persisted necrotic empowerment is difficult.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Hmm. It occurs to me that if we go Sorcerer instead of Wizard, we can use with Houri instead of Grey Elf, Elf Paragon class and Intellectual Paragon, and still come out with a net +2 to Cha for a total Cha of 64 (18 base, +8 racial, +15 Paragon, +5 Wish/tome, +5 level up, +6 item, +3 venerable age, +4 Zealous). So Houri LA5/Paragon15//Sorcerer20. This gets us a spells as a Druid of second level (but with a CL of 17 thanks to Paragon), casting as a 20th level Sorcerer, all the fun things granted by the Fey type, immunity to diseases, and a bunch of skills that are always class skills. Give them Lost Tradition as their first level feat to get Druid casting out of Charisma instead of Wisdom. Save DC on any spell she casts is a minimum of 36. Any Cha skill is pretty much guaranteed to succeed, and just a few cross-class ranks in UMD and UPD gives you basically perfect use of any magic item.

    ...This build is frickin scary.
    Last edited by Noctis Vigil; 2012-11-19 at 11:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Cranthis View Post
    Its under unique abilities, and is generally for npcs only.
    Okay so why would one want a LA of 2 just an increase of 2 to int?

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Extract Gift (FF) gives you 1/4 CL as an enhancement bonus to int, if you can find an outsider with a high enough int.


    Given that you can get an arbitrarily high CL with little effort, you can just have a huge int for free.


    If you want it to be non spell based, Polymorph Any Object is a great place to start.



    Also, if we're talking level 20 gestalt, being a Necropolitan Black Ethergaunt (or hell, go the whole hog and be a lich) with one side of your gestalt being nothing but the Evolved Undead template would net you +20 int from ethergaunt and +40 int from the Evolved Undead template (which explicitly stacks with itself).

    And that's just for starters.

    I think the record for int, non-infinite, is in the thousands.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    How are you getting a demon's int mod all the way to +30, to receive a bonus of +15? The highest int for a demon that isn't unique is 25 (Sibriex, FC1), I believe, which means you'd need to boost its int by +45 to get the +30 modifier for a +15 bonus to the recipient. Even getting a +16 modifier on the donor to beat persisted necrotic empowerment is difficult.
    Breeding. The demon does not have to be ECL 20.

    So we apply templates. The easiest way to do is to time travel back in time, and lock an intelligent undead demon into some crypt for a couple hundred thousand years.


    Voila. It should 'Evolve' a couple dozen times. Then it has the int you need/want. If not just breed it with dragons and such.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Where is the Evolved Undead template located?

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Libris Mortis.

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    Last edited by Rejakor; 2012-11-19 at 05:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Inteligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    Also, if we're talking level 20 gestalt, being a Necropolitan Black Ethergaunt (or hell, go the whole hog and be a lich) with one side of your gestalt being nothing but the Evolved Undead template would net you +20 int from ethergaunt and +40 int from the Evolved Undead template (which explicitly stacks with itself).
    Are you reading the same Evolved Undead I am?

    The template adds +2 Str, +2 Cha. No int.
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    BAH HUMBUG

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