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    Lightbulb Fourth Edition Reborn

    Dungeons & Dragons was the first tabletop roleplaying game, and is still one of the most popular. It popularized and pioneered the concept of a band of wide-eyed adventurers delving into an underground labyrinth crawling with deranged monsters, riddled with sadistic traps, and laden with priceless treasures; a concept which dominates the tabletop gaming industry to this day. D&D has many iterations, called Editions, each substantially different in both writing and rules. Each edition has its own strengths and weaknesses, and its own fan-base.

    Currently, the fifth Edition of the game in development. It looks good, and I'm looking forward to it. However, the fourth Edition will be sorely missed, and I'm not ready to stop playing it any time soon ...

    Enter Fourth Edition Reborn (or FER) - my attempt to continue supporting the game long after it is abandoned by its creators.The game will be a sort of "sequel" to Fourth Edition, meaning that it will take the Fourth Edition rules, improve on them, describe them in a whole new way, rebuild the content from the ground up, create a whole new implied setting, and present them as a new game that gives proper credit to its roots.

    Why am I doing this? Because ...
    • Fourth Edition was a solid game filled with great ideas and concepts, but it was also deeply flawed. This new project will iron out many of the kinks, making the game better all round.
    • Fourth Edition will soon no longer be supported. FER will allow people to easily play the game - and new people to get into the game - long after it goes out of print.
    • Fourth Edition was expensive, and only available in hardcover format. Magic Sword will be free and digitally distributed, which will make it more accessible.
    • Fourth Edition was hard on third party publishers, making them pay royalties to produce Fourth Edition content. FER will be completely open, so third parties can make content for it as they wish.
    • Fourth Edition was incomplete: there were many gaps which needed to be filled in. FER will fill these gaps.


    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ml8tAL6A/edit#

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Major updates. I have been working on the core math that will be used as a structure, and feedback would be highly appreciated.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Out of curiosity, are you still using Magic Sword as the name, or is that being scrapped?
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
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    I finally broke down and got a homebrewer's signature.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Out of curiosity, are you still using Magic Sword as the name, or is that being scrapped?
    I might use it again, but for now, I will not. I think its a bit bland.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Bump, and I'm totally in on this project. Weaponmaster is a clumsy name, though, and I'm not a huge fan of bounded accuracy. And I can't stress this enough: HIT RATE NEEDS TO BE MORE THAN 50%!
    Last edited by Zelkon; 2012-11-21 at 05:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Some general comments, in no specific order.

    Weaponmaster seems fine. Not sure why you felt the need to change it from the tried-and-true Fighter though. Either way, Weaponmaster might not apply to all archtypes under that tag. Guardian specifically doesn't seem to be an expert with weapons, at least conceptually.

    Rogue is fine, but I'd change Beguiler to Trickster or something similar, to avoid confusing 3.5 fans who expect illusion magic.

    Why is a Wizard path named Scholar? It seems odd, given that, traditionally, most Wizards are scholars.

    Templar and Warlock are much to specific conceptually to fit well alongside your other more generic base classes. They seem like path options in their own right, and then you have additional path options layered on top of them. They stand out, and not in a good way.

    Marshal seems like it could be rolled into Weaponmaster. I don't know why a Marshal can be a skirmisher, but not a Rogue or a Weaponmaster. It seems that those classes could easily eat the Marshal and take its things.

    ******


    I always like Bounded Accuracy, but you need to watch your numbers when you use it. Tactical Advantage becomes a little to good when it stacks, and makes up for ten levels worth of bonuses. In fact, the lack of a limit to stacking advantages and disadvantages makes that the likely focus of the game. Four melee allies can give each party member a +6 bonus to their attack rolls: the equivalent of 30 levels within your bounded accuracy.

    The 50% success rate as a baseline is terrible. There's no other way to say it. You're telling a player that they will fail at roughly half the things they try to do. Urgh. I wouldn't want to play that game. I expect my character to be competent in his chosen field, not 50% successful.

    Your hit point math doesn't scale properly. The hit point formulas will not allow a character to be killed in 6 attacks reliably, if you follow the damage formula. It starts at 4-5 attacks. Also, all characters have approximately equal hit points and damage? Your class features had better be very distinct.

    ******


    Finally, you're still using 4e terms and rulings that are protected by the GSL. I'd love to see you guys make some progress with this, but you really need to watch your wording on things like Bloodied, Immediate Reaction, Immediate Interrupt, Minor Action, and so forth. Check here for the GSL, since we can't really discuss it on these forums.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelkon View Post
    Bump, and I'm totally in on this project. Weaponmaster is a clumsy name, though, and I'm not a huge fan of bounded accuracy. And I can't stress this enough: HIT RATE NEEDS TO BE MORE THAN 50%!
    It is more than 50%. Average is around 60% for all roles and levels.

    EDIT: And on that note, my personal beef: If proficiency bonuses are to be a thing, they need to be uniform across the board. No arbitrary decisions as to what is +3 or +2, everything has the same bonus to-hit. I have never seen an axe or a hammer used because of this!
    Last edited by vasharanpaladin; 2012-11-21 at 07:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Templar and Warlock are much to specific conceptually to fit well alongside your other more generic base classes. They seem like path options in their own right, and then you have additional path options layered on top of them. They stand out, and not in a good way.
    Cleric is too specific? User of dark magic is too specific?
    Marshal seems like it could be rolled into Weaponmaster. I don't know why a Marshal can be a skirmisher, but not a Rogue or a Weaponmaster. It seems that those classes could easily eat the Marshal and take its things.
    No. The Warlord is much too unique of an archetype. You would have to make completely different class features
    ******


    Finally, you're still using 4e terms and rulings that are protected by the GSL. I'd love to see you guys make some progress with this, but you really need to watch your wording on things like Bloodied, Immediate Reaction, Immediate Interrupt, Minor Action, and so forth. Check here for the GSL, since we can't really discuss it on these forums.
    My own 4e clone says far away from these terms, and so should you the GSL is a deadly weapon that we need just the right armor for.
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelkon View Post
    Cleric is too specific? User of dark magic is too specific?
    I'm referring specifically to Templar and Warlock here. If you have only one Wizard class that covers enchanters, elementalists, diviners, illusionists, sorcerers (and entire separate class), and all other just arcane classes, I feel that having an entire one of your core six classes devoted to pact-based magic with a dark theme is...restrictive by comparison, and hugely so.

    Templar is more of an issue because the word templar implies a martial feel that the Cleric doesn't need to have. I don't see why the more general Cleric wasn't used, as it allows you to make subsets not just on doman, but also on specific role )Paladin, Templar, and so forth). I think using Templar is, again, restrictive.

    Basically, with six classes and paths within those, you probably want to aim for wider concepts and tailor them more specifically within the classes themselves (via path selection). Currently some classes are conceptually wide, and others are conceptually tight. That creates an odd class dynamic.


    No. The Warlord is much too unique of an archetype. You would have to make completely different class features
    Fair enough. But all skirmishers are Warlords? Avengers are Warlords? The concepts currently in the Warlord category don't feel like leaders, or even really Warlords. They seem like they were put there to fill space (except Knight, which definitely belongs). I'm disappointed that Rogue and Weaponmaster don't have ranged skirmish specialists, for example...that's where I'd expect to see such a class.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    I plan on sleeping soon, and then revising the document tomorrow.

    Planned revisions include:
    • Rethinking the Wizard paths.
    • Rethinking the Marshall paths.
    • Upping the success rate to 65%.
    • Reducing everyone's damage.
    • Moving away from 4e terminology.
    • Limiting Tactical Advantage to three degrees.

    Sound good?

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    I plan on sleeping soon, and then revising the document tomorrow.

    Planned revisions include:
    • Rethinking the Wizard paths.
    • Rethinking the Marshall paths.
    • Upping the success rate to 65%.
    • Reducing everyone's damage.
    • Moving away from 4e terminology.
    • Limiting Tactical Advantage to three degrees.

    Sound good?
    Success rate's already at 65%. You're not making much change here, unless you're planning on making accuracy be less of a thing in general?

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by vasharanpaladin View Post
    Success rate's already at 65%. You're not making much change here, unless you're planning on making accuracy be less of a thing in general?
    *Cough* a+5 attack bonus will hit a defense of 15 half the time.
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelkon View Post
    *Cough* a+5 attack bonus will hit a defense of 15 half the time.
    Actually, if it's like traditional D&D (attackers win ties), it will hit 55% of the time.

    Anyway, some things to think about (currently the big two, in my mind). I'd love to hear your thoughts on these:


    Number One
    Are classes broad, or specific? Currently you have both, and that's not good design. Pick one. Broad concepts leads to class-like paths (like your Wizard and your Weaponmaster), while narrow concepts lead to more specifically flavored paths (like your Warlock). Choose one, because having both pulls your design in two directions. You could also consider having sub-path paths, so your Wizard[Warlock] might be a Wizard[Fey-Path Warlock].

    Number Two
    Determine who is responsible for what, in what order, and set approximate timeframes for sections of the process. This was, in my mind, one of the biggest failings of the last venture: there was virtually no organization, and trying to build something as large as a game system by community work requires organization. Who makes things? Who checks to make sure the feel of the game is preserved across all the sections? Whose responsibility is it to make sure people are handing in work approximately on time? And so forth.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2012-11-22 at 10:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Actually, if it's like traditional D&D (attackers win ties), it will hit 55% of the time.

    Anyway, some things to think about (currently the big two, in my mind). I'd love to hear your thoughts on these:


    Number One
    Are classes broad, or specific? Currently you have both, and that's not good design. Pick one. Broad concepts leads to class-like paths (like your Wizard and your Weaponmaster), while narrow concepts lead to more specifically flavored paths (like your Warlock). Choose one, because having both pulls your design in two directions. You could also consider having sub-path paths, so your Wizard[Warlock] might be a Wizard[Fey-Path Warlock].

    Number Two
    Determine who is responsible for what, in what order, and set approximate timeframes for sections of the process. This was, in my mind, one of the biggest failings of the last venture: there was virtually no organization, and trying to build something as large as a game system by community work requires organization. Who makes things? Who checks to make sure the feel of the game is preserved across all the sections? Whose responsibility is it to make sure people are handing in work approximately on time? And so forth.
    Wizard=Learn spells.
    Sorcerers=Have spells.
    Warlock=Barter or steal spells.

    Therefore, wizards have schools, warlocks have power sources. Equally broad.
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelkon View Post
    Wizard=Learn spells.
    Sorcerers=Have spells.
    Warlock=Barter or steal spells.

    Therefore, wizards have schools, warlocks have power sources. Equally broad.
    If Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock were all base classes, I'd agree. Wizard, however, seems to have eaten Sorcerer completely, and I'm not sure why it hasn't eaten Warlock as well and just become the Arcanist base class.

    In short, as someone who has dabbled and studied RPG design theory heavily, I'm having trouble seeing why those six classes were chosen as the base classes: it seems like the number needs to be raised, or the classes chosen need to be re-vamped. I'd also be interested in seeing those choices explained, along with why other, equally-if-not-more valid choices were dropped.

    I mean, if I had to pick 6 classes to represent all arch-types within the Arcane/Divine/Martial split? I'd probably go with these:

    Fighter: Covers all aspects of martial power. Paths such as Guardian, Dervish, Armsmaster, Berserker, and so forth.
    Rogue: Covers all aspects of martial grace. Paths such as Skirmisher, Assassin, Monk, Thief, and so forth.
    Cleric: Covers the spell-casting divine. This is where the Domain clerics would live, along with things like the Favored Soul.
    Templar: Covers the militant Divine. Things like the Paladin, the Crusader, and the Avenger would fit here.
    Arcanist: Here we have the traditional casters. Arcanists would encompass Warlocks, Sorcerers, Wizards, and other primary casters.
    Spellsword: Here we'd have the militant casters: bards, Swordsages, hexblades, duskblades, and the like.


    This is if you want a small number classes. Of course, each of those sub-categories could be a class in and of itself, so you have to decide if you want to differentiate things like the differing Warlock types in power selection, in a sub-Path "Focus" selection, or by making them each their own separate class.

    You could also go with a three-fold set-up, pinning a class for offense, one for defense, and one for utility/speed. That might look like this:

    Fighter: As above.
    Guardian: Takes over the defensive fighter role.
    Rogue: As above.

    Cleric: Becomes the divine "utility" caster. Support, healing, buffs, and the like.
    Avenger: Channels the might of the gods in offensive ways.
    Templar: As above.

    Wizard: Studious, multi-purpose spells. Support.
    Invoker: Innate raw power. Eats the Warlock and the Sorcerer.
    Spellsword: As above.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2012-11-22 at 11:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    How would it be if we went even more broad. Players simply picked a role, and then built a class from a wealth of options within that role. For newer players who might find this intimidating, we could compile class-like sets of options.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Sorry to double post. I just remembered something unrelated that I wanted to say.

    As for organization, I plan on doing the bulk of the work, especially on the crunch. Due to a recent development in my life, I have much more time on my hands than I did before, which means I will be able to do significantly more writing than last time. If I set my mind to it, I assure you that there will be a noticeable step forward almost every day.

    I cannot do this completely alone. Things I may need help with include: Making sure the text is as readable, concise, and user-friendly as possible; producing all of the powers, feats, monsters, traps, class features, and other content; writing fluff; balancing crunch; making sure the project won't get in legal trouble; and keeping things easy to pick up for inexperienced players.

    Constructive feedback, encouragement, and second opinions are always welcome.
    Last edited by Chainsaw Hobbit; 2012-11-22 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    How would it be if we went even more broad. Players simply picked a role, and then built a class from a wealth of options within that role. For newer players who might find this intimidating, we could compile class-like sets of options.
    This offers a TON of potential freedom, although it increases your workload exponentially, as you have to make sure that all the potential combinations are balanced to each other.

    It's a very different system, as you wouldn't have class-specific powers or anything.

    A simpler way might be to do away with "classes," and allow users to combine paths, similar to what Legend and a few other games do. This limits the potential combinations somewhat, and still allows you to have path-specific powers. Of course, you're basically making mini-classes here, so it's still a ton of work.

    You might also want to consider using role AND power-source as a limiter. It reduces the combinations somewhat (although maybe you could select two power sources if your combined abilities draw from both of those), and have powers limited to things like "Pure Arcane," "Pure Martial," and "Martial/Arcane," with your power sources indicating which powers you're capable of taking. That would allow you to tailor specific abilities to specific combinations, and sort of build multiclassing into the system at a base level.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2012-11-22 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    How would it be if we went even more broad. Players simply picked a role, and then built a class from a wealth of options within that role. For newer players who might find this intimidating, we could compile class-like sets of options.
    I'm generally against this idea. Classes are very elegant and I'm more of "the more classes the merrier" type, so that each fills a specific role that doesn't depend on any other class. Flavor is lost in classless systems to me.
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Everything said has been taken into account. Working on revisions now.

    We should also work on developing an aesthetic and implied setting. I admit that the one I came up with last time was lacking - generic and limiting at the same time. I have another in mind: psychedelic 70s fantasy meets Conan meets Spelljammer. For the aesthetic, we could borrow from prog rock album covers and 70s fantasy novels and comics. The setting could be something epic and high-magic, but also kind of insane, like Planescape or Spelljammer. There could also be a streak of Conan running through the thing, with corrupting magic and powerful melee characters.

    How does this sound?

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    Everything said has been taken into account. Working on revisions now.

    We should also work on developing an aesthetic and implied setting. I admit that the one I came up with last time was lacking - generic and limiting at the same time. I have another in mind: psychedelic 70s fantasy meets Conan meets Spelljammer. For the aesthetic, we could borrow from prog rock album covers and 70s fantasy novels and comics. The setting could be something epic and high-magic, but also kind of insane, like Planescape or Spelljammer. There could also be a streak of Conan running through the thing, with corrupting magic and powerful melee characters.

    How does this sound?
    The awesomeness just 'sploded my head.
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    We should also work on developing an aesthetic and implied setting. I admit that the one I came up with last time was lacking - generic and limiting at the same time. I have another in mind: psychedelic 70s fantasy meets Conan meets Spelljammer. For the aesthetic, we could borrow from prog rock album covers and 70s fantasy novels and comics. The setting could be something epic and high-magic, but also kind of insane, like Planescape or Spelljammer. There could also be a streak of Conan running through the thing, with corrupting magic and powerful melee characters.

    How does this sound?
    Unusual, definitely. Possibly hilarious campy, possibly excellent. Likely both.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2012-11-22 at 07:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Glad to see the reception to the setting idea is good. How about a fungus-themed core race?

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    Glad to see the reception to the setting idea is good. How about a fungus-themed core race?
    Less good. Core races should be flexible. Setting-specific races should be evocative of the setting and flexible (hence why Warforged and Shifters are cool for Eberron, but Kalashtar are less well received).

    A fungus-themed race is niche, and, while it could be very cool in certain campaign settings, I'd save it for something other than core. Pick something slightly more fantasy-standard. Remember: you're trying to make something in the spirit of 4e here, and most 4e games were probably standard fantasy, or some flavor thereof.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Less good. Core races should be flexible. Setting-specific races should be evocative of the setting and flexible (hence why Warforged and Shifters are cool for Eberron, but Kalashtar are less well received).

    A fungus-themed race is niche, and, while it could be very cool in certain campaign settings, I'd save it for something other than core. Pick something slightly more fantasy-standard. Remember: you're trying to make something in the spirit of 4e here, and most 4e games were probably standard fantasy, or some flavor thereof.
    Good points, but bare in mind, Fourth Edition included races specific to the setting on the core as well: Dragonborn and Teiflings. There is always someone at the table who wants to play the freak, and I like the idea of fungus people a lot more than Dragonborn.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    Major updates. I have been working on the core math that will be used as a structure, and feedback would be highly appreciated.
    I'll be honest: as a 4th Edition fan, I'm not sure about this. It seems that instead of simply ironing out the kinks (such as the need for Expertise feats and feat taxes in general, classes like the Binder, scaling issues, things like that), you're trying to rebuild the game from the ground up. A laudable effort, sure, but I'm not sure it's advantageous for me as a 4E orphan.

    Also: I strongly dislike "bounded accuracy". A 10th-level Fighter should have an easier time hitting a 1st-level Orc - and I believe it's good to use a lower-level challenge against the PCs every once in a while.
    Last edited by The Troubadour; 2012-11-23 at 11:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by The Troubadour View Post
    I'll be honest: as a 4th Edition fan, I'm not sure about this. It seems that instead of simply ironing out the kinks (such as the need for Expertise feats and feat taxes in general, classes like the Binder, scaling issues, things like that), you're trying to rebuild the game from the ground up. A laudable effort, sure, but I'm not sure it's advantageous for me as a 4E orphan.

    Also: I strongly dislike "bounded accuracy". A 10th-level Fighter should have an easier time hitting a 1st-level Orc - and I believe it's good to use a lower-level challenge against the PCs every once in a while.
    The reason we are rebuilding it from the ground up is because that is the only way the venture will be legal to distribute commercially.

    The point of Bounded Accuracy is that the first level orc becomes a "minion" to the 10th level fighter. He can kill the orc in one hit, and it only takes out a small fraction of his health on a hit, so he can fight several at a time.

    Bounded Accuracy ENCOURAGES the introduction of lower or higher level threats, because the lower level party will be able to hit them at all, and the higher level party will still be challenged.

    In Fourth Edition, one couldn't throw a bunch of 1st level orcs at a 10th level party, because it would be an extremely one-sided fight. They needed a bunch of 10th level minion orcs. This erases the problem.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    Good points, but bare in mind, Fourth Edition included races specific to the setting on the core as well: Dragonborn and Teiflings. There is always someone at the table who wants to play the freak, and I like the idea of fungus people a lot more than Dragonborn.
    While true, both Dragonborn and Teiflings are born from incredibly popular fantasy lore: Dragons and Devils are definitely much-loved monsters. Sentient mushroom people? I think there's much less room for that in the "monsters people love and want to play" bin.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Troubadour View Post
    I'll be honest: as a 4th Edition fan, I'm not sure about this. It seems that instead of simply ironing out the kinks (such as the need for Expertise feats and feat taxes in general, classes like the Binder, scaling issues, things like that), you're trying to rebuild the game from the ground up. A laudable effort, sure, but I'm not sure it's advantageous for me as a 4E orphan.
    It's advantageous in that it CAN be produced. The GSL is very restrictive, as I don't believe it even allows you to reword things: thus, you cannot fix rules or feats, nor alter any existing part of the system.

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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    The reason we are rebuilding it from the ground up is because that is the only way the venture will be legal to distribute commercially.

    The point of Bounded Accuracy is that the first level orc becomes a "minion" to the 10th level fighter. He can kill the orc in one hit, and it only takes out a small fraction of his health on a hit, so he can fight several at a time.

    Bounded Accuracy ENCOURAGES the introduction of lower or higher level threats, because the lower level party will be able to hit them at all, and the higher level party will still be challenged.

    In Fourth Edition, one couldn't throw a bunch of 1st level orcs at a 10th level party, because it would be an extremely one-sided fight. They needed a bunch of 10th level minion orcs. This erases the problem.
    Foresight, my own 4e clone, is going to use a sort of monster system that allows easy scaling of monsters to allow a level appropriate enemy of many types of all levels. So, with your orc example, a 1st level orc operates as a standard, but when you scale the orc to level 5 (a solo becomes an elite in 5 levels, a standard in 10, and a minion in 15), it changes to the mook rules and uses the appropriate bonus. The bookkeeping of this is solved with the use of a GM sheet, which is basically a character sheet for the DM.

    Also, may I propose the idea of sliding initiative. Each round, your initiative increases by its sliding value. It's also used to break ties. The warlord takes good advantage of this, and the elf gains it as a trait.
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelkon View Post
    Foresight, my own 4e clone, is going to use a sort of monster system that allows easy scaling of monsters to allow a level appropriate enemy of many types of all levels. So, with your orc example, a 1st level orc operates as a standard, but when you scale the orc to level 5 (a solo becomes an elite in 5 levels, a standard in 10, and a minion in 15), it changes to the mook rules and uses the appropriate bonus. The bookkeeping of this is solved with the use of a GM sheet, which is basically a character sheet for the DM.

    Also, may I propose the idea of sliding initiative. Each round, your initiative increases by its sliding value. It's also used to break ties. The warlord takes good advantage of this, and the elf gains it as a trait.
    Your 4e clone? I would very much like to see this. Please shoot me a link.

    Also, how would you handle minions for low-level characters?

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