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Thread: Shadowcaster Gish?
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2012-11-19, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Shadowcaster Gish?
In this Iron Chef someone made a verybinteresting gish using a Shadowcaster base. The mysteries were mostly used to enable a pseudo-shadow pounce by combining Sun's school and flicker with some of the more defensive mysteries thrown in. I am not really familiar with mysteries so I was wondering if it is viable to make a more "normal" gish, that is self buffing and kicking ass, using mysteries.
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2012-11-19, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
I'm actually working on the beginnings of a Shadowcaster handbook where I'll expand on this, but yeah, it can be done. You'll suffer a bit at the low levels, but it's certainly possible.
(By the way, if you use the author of the class' suggested fix, it becomes a way better option. The main problem is that, while there are several decent mysteries for a gish, they're almost always on a path that is otherwise full of things that you might never use. The suggested fix lets you pick any mystery whose level you qualify for without needing to follow the path, and instead gives you bonus feats for COMPLETING a path, to encourage you to stay in.)
Flicker is about as good as it gets if shadowpouncing is your goal - like Abrupt Jaunt, it's immediate action teleportation, but unlike Abrupt Jaunt, you can teleport greater distances, and you can use it once per round. (Also, whereas Abrupt Jaunt leaves some gray areas in the rules about what happens when you use it to avoid an attack, Flicker is pretty explicit.)
Without shadowpouncing, Flicker is still a super useful defensive mystery - but it's probably not worth slogging through the otherwise rough Ebon Whispers path to get it.
Swordsage 2/Shadowcaster 14/Telflammar Shadowlord 4 is a pretty excellent build as far as shadowpouncers go - you get master path mysteries (and at-will fundamentals, which is not too shabby), a very tight little shadowpouncing technique, and a few decent maneuvers and stances from swordsage. (Use Step into Shadow to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord.)
Bolster is also pretty solid for a gish. It gives you five temporary HP per hit die, up to a max of 75 HP. Suddenly that d6 hit die isn't so bad...
Other than that, there's not a ton that screams gish, but there's some usable stuff. The Touch of Twilight apprentice path has three pretty decent touch based mysteries. Umbral Touch in particular is nice for a third level mystery - it's a multi-use touch attack, deals pretty good damage, and slows the enemy.
Not as much that's particularly great for gishes on the initiate level beyond Bolster - there's a lot of neat things there, but none of them really scream gish. Still, Bolster alone is good enough to be worth taking a couple of times.
The master path mysteries are a mixed bag. Some really powerful effects (Shadow Time, for example, is time stop with an improved duration), but again nothing that cries out gish to me. Eyes of the Night Sky is probably your best bet - the first mystery is an improved version of true seeing, and the 9th-level mystery, Reflection of Things to Come, gives a huge insight bonus to initiative and lets you always act in the surprise round, plus Uncanny Dodge and some decent AC boosts. Other than that, I'd probably go with the Dark Metamorphosis path to nab Shadow Time, even if the other two mysteries in the path aren't that handy for a gish.
Prestige classes are definitely a big help. Dipping cleric or ur-priest lets you theurge your way into some extra melee abilities. Or, for something fun and a little different, take Sentinel of Bharrai and turn into a shadow-bear that teleports around eating your enemies...
TL;DR version: It's tough, but doable. Bolster and Flicker are really the stand-out mysteries for that. You won't be the traditional gish, so you'll probably have to pick up some extra melee abilities through multiclassing.Optimization Showcase in the Playground
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2012-11-19, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
Oh, and here is the suggested fix by Ari Marmell (the creator of the Shadowcaster). If your DM allows it, I highly recommend it. It turns it from "doable but difficult" to "fun and unique."
Originally Posted by Ari Marmell/Mouseferatu (The Author of the Class)Optimization Showcase in the Playground
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2012-11-19, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
I wish I could help, but this is something I was about to post before yours caught my eye.
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2012-11-19, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
The details would need hashing out, but there are quite a few skillmonkey/gishes that build off source-neutral CL.
Before ironing out the fluff or skills exactly, I'd probably look into something like
Halfling Ranger 1/Shadowcaster 4/Impure Prince 5/Cyran Avenger 5/Dragonslayer 1/Halfling Whistler 4for an archer gish. (BA 17/CL 17)Last edited by eggs; 2012-11-19 at 07:44 PM.
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2012-11-20, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
Thanks Piggy Knowles, that was pretty thorough, from what I see getting some Sneak attack or precision damage would be a pretty good option for a Shadowcaster gish with those touch-mysteries.
@eggs: That build does sounds pretty interesting; but where is Halfling Whistler from? I've never heard of it before.
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2012-11-20, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
It's one of the PrCs wizards sneaked onto their webpage. It's mostly just a filler-level PrC, but it's sometimes useful for its 10/10 casting, easy access, 3/4 BA and unusual skill list for a full caster.
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2012-11-20, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
I must say it is a weird class; but yeah 3/4 bab, 10/10 casting and a pretty good skill list with good SP per level makes for excellent filler (and some of the class features are quite nice, counterwhistle could be pretty useful if you have some spare standard actions, swiftblade perhaps?)
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2012-11-20, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
A two level dip in Totemist with Blink Shirt bound to Totem chakra can let you qualify instead of Shadowcaster, with a move-action DimDoor for even MORE shadowpouncing shennanigans. Goes something like this:
Turn 1: Standard action: Flicker. Move action: DimDoor, shadowpounce.
Turn2: Activate Flicker, shadowpounce. Move action DimDoor, shadowpounce again.
If you can somehow manage to get 6 levels of Warlock into it, for Flee The Scene, you could have three shadowpounces per turn! One from Flicker, one from Blink Shirt, and your standard action for Flee The Scene.
Pretty sick, yo.Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2012-11-20 at 07:38 PM.
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2012-11-21, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
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2012-11-23, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty good option. Take, for example, the Swordsage 2/Shadowcaster 14/Telflammar Shadowlord 4 I recommended earlier. With Assassin's Stance, Craven and Umbral Touch, you can make full attacks as touch attacks. Each deals 7d6+20 damage and forces a save or be slowed. With haste (off of the Shadowlord's spell list) and potentially two full attacks a round (regular full attack, immediate action Flicker + full attack... more if you look into some of the multipouncing shenanigans that Shneekey mentioned), that's incredibly dangerous.
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2012-11-23, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Shadowcaster Gish?
Another option would be to use Umbral Fist with more combat oriented bonuses stacked upon it such as Dungeon Crasher Fighter ACF and the Improved Disarm/Trip/Bullrush feats.