Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

[CoffeeIncluded]

Let's assume that Redcloak's Plan goes off without a hitch. He works with Xykon to control one of the gates, he successfully backstabs Xykon, and the Dark One uses the Snarl to blackmail the gods without having the Snarl wipe out the world. So Redcloak wins. And he's still alive at the end of it.

Then what? What does Redcloak do then? His entire life from when he was just an angry grieving kid who picked up the red cloak has revolved around the Plan. Redcloak has let the Plan define him; he's nothing more than an agent through which the Plan happens. And then suddenly that's gone and he's left an empty husk who sacrificed everything for the sake of the Plan. If Redcloak wins and lives, he'll be living in the world of his dreams. But even as the High Priest of the Dark One, it'll be a world with nothing of importance for him. He won't have anyone or anything to live for, not anymore. How much would Redcloak even value his own life once the one thing that he let define and give meaning to his entire existence is gone?

And if Redcloak loses, or if the Plan fails but sociopolitical changes end up giving the world the same result, he has the same problem.

[Draken]

Redcloak is following the plan because he cares for goblinfolk, his goal in life is not to see the completion of the plan, his goal in life is to make a better world for goblinkind, the plan is the means he has been given to achieve that, and he has put his all into it.

If his goal is completed and he lives, he will retire a hero, he will rule his people (because he is a ruler, already at that) and then he will die a legend.

If he doesn't survive the completion of his goal, he will skip the first two steps and die a legend anyway.

[Amarsir]

What does Redcloak do then? His entire life from when he was just an angry grieving kid who picked up the red cloak has revolved around the Plan. Redcloak has let the Plan define him; he's nothing more than an agent through which the Plan happens. And then suddenly that's gone and he's left an empty husk who sacrificed everything for the sake of the Plan.

Yes, Redcloak is a tragic hero. You can't help but root for him and hope he triumphs over that troublesome Greenhilt antagonist.

[JavaScribe]

Then what? What does Redcloak do then? His entire life from when he was just an angry grieving kid who picked up the red cloak has revolved around the Plan. Redcloak has let the Plan define him; he's nothing more than an agent through which the Plan happens. And then suddenly that's gone and he's left an empty husk who sacrificed everything for the sake of the Plan. If Redcloak wins and lives, he'll be living in the world of his dreams. But even as the High Priest of the Dark One, it'll be a world with nothing of importance for him. He won't have anyone or anything to live for, not anymore. How much would Redcloak even value his own life once the one thing that he let define and give meaning to his entire existence is gone?

In his own words, once he's finished with The Plan and bringing the enemies of goblinkind to heel, "Maybe... when my journey is complete... I will return to live out my days here (Gobbotopia)." In short, he'll enjoy his retirement and maybe continue playing civic leader.

And if Redcloak loses, or if the Plan fails but sociopolitical changes end up giving the world the same result, he has the same problem.

Indeed. Bardic law would kill him off at this point or leave him a broken man.

[King of Nowhere]

there's no reason for him to be broken if his dream is realized. he has lived for the plan. He would find something else. Maybe he would retire quitely and try to live the normal life he was denied by events. I don't see much other things that could happen.

I'm thinking at some people who want to be rich or powerful as a comparison. if they arrive to a position of power and money, sometimes they are satisfied, but often they keep seeking for more, and they never stop seeking. But with redcloak that could not be. once he fulfill the plan, he cannot fulfill the plan more.

So the worst thing that could happen to him would be to become a lonely old man spending his dwindling days in obscurity and apathy.
But I doubt so. Redcloak has been smashed hard, but he never broke. he's stronger than most people give him credit for. He looks phsycologically weak, just the same as xykon looks dumb, and the look is just as misleading, as Tsukiko discovered at her expense.
I think he would retire quietly, and probably give up political power, but would remain an influent figure in his community. Maybe he would become a cleric in a local temple, casting spells for the population and administering the holy rites of the dark one, whatever they are.

[Voyd211]

Yeah, regardless of The Plan, he IS still the high priest of the Dark One, which probably entails a lot of other responsibilities.

[KillianHawkeye]

What will he do? He'll sit back and bask in the glory of his awesome success!

[Umberhulk]

If its all too much for him, he could pass on the cloak. I figure he'd die if he did.

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah, regardless of The Plan, he IS still the high priest of the Dark One, which probably entails a lot of other responsibilities.

Probably this. If the Plan succeeds then he'll have a lot more general Cleric-y business to deal with.

[factotum]

Let's consider this for a moment. If the Plan succeeds then the Dark One has no further need of Redcloak, or, indeed, the Crimson Mantle. Chances are he'll take the artifact back, and since Redcloak is already extremely old for a goblin, he might well immediately die of old age.

If we assume that he'll age normally from where he appears to be right now, he'll have a good 20-30 years of seeing how the world turns out with his so-called "equality" for goblinoids in place. Will it be a world that he recognises? Will it be the world he was expecting? My suspicion is that it won't be, and Redcloak will eventually go to his grave rather disappointed with how it all panned out.

[Ravens_cry]

What I hope?
What I hope is an understanding is reached, that goblinoids and the player race humanoids learn to respect each other as people and not as XP and loot fodder.
To paraphrase Martin Luther King Junior,
I have a dream that one day, down in Greyhawk, one day right there in Forgotten Realms, little green boys and green girls will be able to join hands with little PC boys and PC girls as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today!

[Arcanist]

What I hope?
What I hope is an understanding is reached, that goblinoids and the player race humanoids learn to respect each other as people and not as XP and loot fodder.
To paraphrase Martin Luther King Junior,
I have a dream that one day, down in Greyhawk, one day right there in Forgotten Realms, little green boys and green girls will be able to join hands with little PC boys and PC girls as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today!

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Ever since I read my friends copy of Start of Darkness, I've just never been able to demonize any Goblinoid... I just... can't

[Mike Havran]

He gives up the Crimson Mantle, since it's purpose is fulfilled. He reveals his real name. He uses his power to help with sealing the riffs. Then he returns to Gobbotopia and will work as Jirix's advisor. They fashion the Constitution of Gobbotopia, which will serve as a legal standard for goblinoid-ruled countries and communities from now on. Then he finally ascends as a demigod - or, due to his immense popularity in the Gobbotopia, as a lesser deity.

[Ravens_cry]

Ever since I read my friends copy of Start of Darkness, I've just never been able to demonize any Goblinoid... I just... can't

I've always felt this way about Kobolds. It feels just wrong to kill them.
In every campaign I have been in where there has been an opportunity to befriend a tribe of kobolds, I have done so.

[Draconi Redfir]

The dark one and the Red one anybody?


But i seriously hope Redcloak comes out on top TBH, that or at the very least is defeated shortly after doing something heroic, like being blasted by xykon after destroying his soul-thingy i'm too lazy to spell. The guy deserves it.

[Winter]

Then what?

Midlife crisis. He says goodbye to his current environment, buys a Harley and drives through the land, finding himself. He starts with visiting bars and brothels and some time later finds the solitude of a fine pond or the fresh air in a forest more enjoyable. After a year or so he sorts out his issues and returns with new energy to his job, which he then fulfills without burning out again until his well-deserved retirement.

After that comes the eternal torturing by his countless victims.

[Mike Havran]

After that comes the eternal torturing by his countless victims.

Pretty unlikely since he'll end up in the afterlife ruled by the Dark One, who will probably not harm the man goblin who fulfilled his goal and helped to establish the first independent goblin empire in the world.

[Kgw]

I agree mostly 2323mike. I have always thought that

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Redcloack would become the "other" god of goblinoid pantheon, either the "good" or the "evil" one. Since the Dark One cares not for his people's sacrifices in order to fulfill the plan -sometimes against Redcloak's whishes-, I can't help he will become the "Good" Goblin God. After all, Redcloak is quite revered for his people now.

[allenw]

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Step 1: True Resurrection for Right-Eye.
Step 2: "I told you it was worth it."
Step 3: Die. Preferably at Right-Eye's hands, though that's unlikely.


If Right-Eye refuses Step 1, replace it with "Determine which afterlife Right-Eye went to, Plane Shift there, and find him." This may take a while, since he probably *didn't* go to the Dark One's domain.

Edited for SoD semi-spoilers.

[Sith_Happens]

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Step 1: True Resurrection for Right-Eye.
Step 2: "I told you it was worth it."
Step 3: Die. Preferably at Right-Eye's hands, though that's unlikely.


If Right-Eye refuses Step 1, replace it with "Determine which afterlife Right-Eye went to, Plane Shift there, and find him." This may take a while, since he probably *didn't* go to the Dark One's domain.

First off, prequel book references need to be spoiled, except in the case where the thread title explicitly calls out that it involves such spoilers.

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Anyways, I think it's safe to say that there's less than zero chance of Right-Eye ever accepting a resurrection from anyone. Finding his soul is also probably not feasible, since he's almost certainly in one of the planes in which Redcloak's welcome would be less than friendly (Right-Eye was almost certainly Good, even if you count fighting the Sapphire Guard against him).

In the event that Redcloak does find some way of contacting him, the best-case scenario I can see is Right-Eye giving him massive credit for turning Azure City into Gobbotopia and then promptly b****ing him out for not stopping there.

Little detail I just realized, I'm pretty sure that Redcloak would decide not to regenerate his eye after all is said and done (reasons are spoiler-related for now).

[ti'esar]

Okay, I'm curious - what is it?

I think a lot of people in this thread are taking an overly positive view of Redcloak, by the way.

[theMycon]

[SPOILER]
Ever since I read my friends copy of Start of Darkness, I've just never been able to demonize any Goblinoid... I just... can't

I had pretty much the opposite view- I was all for Redcloak and considered him a good guy, force to do bad things for the sake of capital-G Good, up until I read Start of Darkness. Now that I've seen him

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have a mini-gobbotopia presented in front of him, shun it repeatedly until his brother succeeded to talk him into it, and then disintegrate his own brother when he had the chance to stop Xykon and return to their peaceful life

I've lost most of my sympathy for him.

Yes, his goal is a moral one, and he's the least evil of Team Evil by a long shot. He's still not a good person.

[ti'esar]

There's a huge difference between "demonizing goblinoids" and rooting for Redcloak, though (and I think that's part of the point).

[Red.Tide]

In my mind, Redcloak is too flawed of a character to be allowed to live in retirement, whether he would be satisfied or not. However, his goal is noble. I hope that somehow, the world is made better for the goblinoids (maybe through Elan's happy ending? Elan would definitely feel their plight.) The most satisfying ending for me would be for Redcloak, as he lays dying, to get some small amount of satisfaction that things will change, even as he is filled with regret for the actions he took in his life.

Unlike Xykon (and Tarquin), who I hope will be utterly destroyed in the worst possible manner.

[Sith_Happens]

Yes, his goal is a moral one, and he's the least evil of Team Evil by a long shot. He's still not a good person.

Oh, I don't think anyone said that Redcloak is a good person. Not by a long shot.

[Q. Flestrin]

What I hope?
What I hope is an understanding is reached, that goblinoids and the player race humanoids learn to respect each other as people and not as XP and loot fodder.
To paraphrase Martin Luther King Junior,
I have a dream that one day, down in Greyhawk, one day right there in Forgotten Realms, little green boys and green girls will be able to join hands with little PC boys and PC girls as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today!

I've always kind of wanted to see this happen. To me, goblinoids are just another people. I even made a bunch of fairly benevolent LN bugbears in one of my campaign settings.

In my mind, Redcloak is too flawed of a character to be allowed to live in retirement, whether he would be satisfied or not. However, his goal is noble. I hope that somehow, the world is made better for the goblinoids (maybe through Elan's happy ending? Elan would definitely feel their plight.) The most satisfying ending for me would be for Redcloak, as he lays dying, to get some small amount of satisfaction that things will change, even as he is filled with regret for the actions he took in his life.

That sounds reasonable. Maybe, to extend Ravens_cry's MLK Jr. metaphor, Redcloak has "seen that great iron plateau. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised future. So I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any humanoid. Mine eye has seen the glory of the coming of the Dark One."

[Ravens_cry]

I've always kind of wanted to see this happen. To me, goblinoids are just another people. I even made a bunch of fairly benevolent LN bugbears in one of my campaign settings.

I had an idea of a setting where, for the most parts, Goblinoids were travelling merchants who worked together. Goblins riding on wolves or wolfy dogs would ride ahead as scouts, hobgoblins did most of the talking, wheeling dealing, as well as labour and more thinking fighting, while bugbears are semi-sentient bipedal beasts of burden who pulled the large centre wheeled wheelbarrows. I would have to change the stats a little to make it work, but the main idea was that they weren't villains only.
Oh, and gnomes were a slave/servant race of the dwarves.

[Q. Flestrin]

TANGENT ALERT:

... while bugbears are semi-sentient bipedal beasts of burden who pulled the large centre wheeled wheelbarrows.

Reminds me of the Yahoos from Gulliver's Travels.

[Ravens_cry]

TANGENT ALERT: Reminds me of the Yahoos from Gulliver's Travels.

Really? Huh. I've never read the whole story myself, though I know the basic cliffnotes version, but OK. As far as I know, that particular source wasn't an inspiration.

[Draconi Redfir]

I've always kind of wanted to see this happen. To me, goblinoids are just another people. I even made a bunch of fairly benevolent LN bugbears in one of my campaign settings.

I made a whole tribe of TN bugbears for the heck of it once :U

while bugbears are semi-sentient bipedal beasts of burden who pulled the large centre wheeled wheelbarrows.

I resent that.