Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Phaederkiel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Behold, the Murkel!

    Spoiler
    Show

    Murkel
    CR 2
    small creature
    3d6 plus 8 (19HP)
    AC 17 (3 dex, 2 natural, 1 small), Touch 14, Flat 13

    str 14
    dex 16
    con 14
    int 7
    wi 10
    cha 4

    Feats: Blindsight, battle jump,

    BAB: 2, grapple 4

    Atk: jumpcharge aus 20 ft höhe: 8 (2 charge, 1 high ground, 2 str, 2 bab, 1 masterwork spear): 2d6plus 6

    Full Attack: MW shortspear 6 (1d6 plus 3)

    Murkels attack in swarms. Initially they hide in high trees, then drop with a jumping charge on their prey. Should their prey survive this initial assault, the Murkel fight in the thick undergrowth and try to take advantage of the cover it provides for them, knowing that they themselves are very good at fighting while not seeing well.
    Murkels make good use of Aid Another to overcome foes with strong armor.

    Climb : 8, Hide: 12, Move silently: 8, Jump: 5, Tumble: 3

    save: fort 4, ref 3, wis 0

    A party is most likely to encounter murkels when they carry some kind of open flame (like a torch) or a source of light (like an everburning torch) through a jungle. Murkels are not intelligent enough to make fire themselves, but appreciate its use in cooking. They will attack in full force, and try to steal the source of fire/light. They will unscrupeously kill to get a firebrand. Hey, a fire AND something to roast upon it.

    the DC knowledge (nature) for this information is 20 (if a character has seen a Murkel in full) or 26 (if a character has only seen a murkel shortly by dropping on someone and then disappearing into the undergrowth)

    Railroady hook: Bait your party to use fire by attacking them with stirges in larges quantities.



    I want to use these creatures to attack a lvl 4 Party, and give the meelee some trouble (while giving the very new WuJen the option to fire her reserve fiery something into thick meelee, and get abducted afterwards...)

    They mostly rely on cover for defenses.

    is the challenge rating aboutishly correct? or do you think its too hard on 4 lvl 4 guys to get 8 of these guys dropped on them?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Pondering turns of phrase
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaederkiel View Post
    is the challenge rating aboutishly correct? or do you think its too hard on 4 lvl 4 guys to get 8 of these guys dropped on them?
    Not totally sure if the CR is correct, but in any case an EL 8 encounter is pretty rough on an APL 4 party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Phaederkiel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Thanks a lot for answering!

    I always thought it was: double the critters, add one to the CR?

    so 1 of them is CR2

    2 are CR3

    4 are CR4

    and 8 are CR5


    I shouldnt be wrong about this. I want to challenge them, not curbstomp them.

    Do you think the CR2 is rather too high or rather too low for the guys?

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Pondering turns of phrase
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaederkiel View Post
    Thanks a lot for answering!

    I always thought it was: double the critters, add one to the CR?
    No, every doubling adds two. (Check the SRD Encounter Calculator if you want.)

    I'm not too great at estimating CR for low-end humanoids, sadly, but they don't seem completely off.

    Although, they have "Blindsight" listed as a feat, which should be Blind-Fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Firstly, if it's a humanoid, it probably should be knowledge:local if you're using RAW.
    That Strength score is too high for a small creature without levels in PC classes, you should probably lower it to 10 or 11.
    Most monsters will have 3 even and 3 odd scores, so consider adding 1 to one or two scores to make that happen.
    Also, masterwork weapons are usually reserved for the elite, they should not be carried by every member of the tribe.
    Also, a small shortspear only does 1d4 damage.
    If they are humanoids, they should have d8 hit dice. Their good save should probably be Reflex, for +1 Fort but +6 Reflex.
    With those changes, they should be a good match; their AC is a tiny bit high for that level, but with the decreased STR score and no MW weapons, their offense should be low enough to compensate.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Phaederkiel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    @ tuggyne: thanks for warning me. That means I need to either weaken them quite a bit, or wait a while. I think I need at least 6 of the guys to make my encounter work.

    Or I make a second, 1 HD version, who have nothing but blind-fight.


    @yitzi: thanks a lot for the analysis! I will change them accordingly.

    But first, about Knowledge (local): it is a perpetual point of discourse in my group if you can take points in Knowledge (local) or if you need take points in
    Knowledge(local[desert]) and Knowledge(local[swamp]) seperately.

    They are small reptilian (or plantsy, i am not entirely sure yet) creatures living in a big, amazonas-like jungle-river.

    And I would obviously let a character throw knowledge (local[jungle]) for them, if he brought the skill. Probably with plus 4, for the specialized knowledge.

    I know that I need to prepare for knowlegde checks, since one guy in my group is a bard with knowledge inspiration and accordingly high skills.

    about the save: I modeled part of the murkel after the Lizard kings (serpent kingdom 68) and - as I see I just misread somewhere. okay, up go the reflex saves, that will also help against the fiery reserve feat of the wujen.

    But now I encounter a problem: if I nix their strength score, AND take away their MW spears, they will never hit my party again. The two fighters have a AC 19 and a AC 21. Which should be difficult, but not impossible to hit.
    When they are in the undergrowth, it will be okay: they will swarm the characters, flank them and aid each other. But the initial jumping charge should have some hitting capabilities, too.
    Should I give them one more point of BAB?

    I am happy about the spears dealing less damage, though.

    murkel, 1.02
    Spoiler
    Show

    Murkel
    CR 2
    small creature
    3d6 plus 8 (19HP)
    AC 17 (3 dex, 2 natural, 1 small), Touch 14, Flat 13

    str 11
    dex 16
    con 14
    int 7
    wi 10
    cha 3

    Feats: Blind-fight, battle jump,

    BAB: 3, grapple 4

    Atk: jumpcharge aus 20 ft höhe: 7 (2 charge, 1 high ground, 0 str, 3 bab, 1 masterwork spear): 2d4

    Full Attack: MW shortspear 4 (1d4)

    Climb : 8, Hide: 12, Move silently: 8, Jump: 5, Tumble: 3

    save: fort 3, ref 6, wis 0



    hmm. now they are somewhat easy, because they deal (at max) 2d4.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaederkiel View Post
    But now I encounter a problem: if I nix their strength score, AND take away their MW spears, they will never hit my party again. The two fighters have a AC 19 and a AC 21. Which should be difficult, but not impossible to hit.
    When they are in the undergrowth, it will be okay: they will swarm the characters, flank them and aid each other. But the initial jumping charge should have some hitting capabilities, too.
    Doesn't a charge get +2 to AC? That means a +6 total, which should be enough to have a chance. Not a very high chance, but they are somewhat defensively strong for their CR.

    Should I give them one more point of BAB?
    That would mean another HD and all it implies (you can't give BAB for nothing); it could work, but if you do you should probably reduce their natural armor by 1. Or you could give Blindsight as a bonus feat, and give weapon focus (shortspear) instead.

    And if you want at least 6 against a level 4 party to be a level-appropriate fight, they'll need to be a lot weaker. Strip their natural armor and don't boost their attack, and they'll probably be a good CR 1; 6 of those should be a good boss-level fight at level 4.

    hmm. now they are somewhat easy, because they deal (at max) 2d4.
    Keep in mind, they're supposed to be fairly weak individually; you're sending 6 of them, and the PCs are still supposed to be able to win without expending more than 20% of their resources (which is a level-appropriate fight). For that, they're still probably too strong.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2012-11-23 at 08:09 AM.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Pondering turns of phrase
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Doesn't a charge get +2 to AC? That means a +6 total, which should be enough to have a chance. Not a very high chance, but they are somewhat defensively strong for their CR.
    Charges get +2 to attack and -2 to AC.

    Other than that, yeah, basically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: is that CR okay? The Murkel, CR2

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Charges get +2 to attack and -2 to AC.

    Other than that, yeah, basically.
    Yeah, I meant to say +2 to attack, I mistyped.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •