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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: The end of Ctrl-Alt-Del

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    But this explosion of bile just wrecks them because they put alot of themselves into their work and it frigging HURTS to have people tear it down.
    Yes, it really does freaking hurt to be told your work sucks. But it's what you need to learn to deal with when presenting your work to a larger audience. Absolutely their will be venomous people who are also crazy. But to better your work, you need to listen to them, then evaluate if what they say has merit. Not every voice is going to be a raging jerk out to tear you down, some people are just trying to help.

    Or you can go the Buckley/Mookie route, and surround yourself in a hug box for 10+ years. Which just makes your once helpful critics turn bloodthirsty, because you don't listen anyway.

    As an example, I have a lot of respect for Scott Dewitt of Fanboys, because he tried to listen to his critics, and actively improved his comic from that.
    Last edited by Rhapsh; 2012-11-27 at 01:49 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The end of Ctrl-Alt-Del

    I read the final storyline, and even as someone who hasn't read the thing in a long time it's pretty depressing. Killing off your main character after 10 years in an anticlimactic time travel event without any warning is a pretty awful way to treat your fans.

    And to those who didn't like the comic: you didn't have to keep reading it.

    And you won't have to read the new one either.

    How nice of the internet to give you somewhere to pee on someone else's cornflakes.
    We don't have to like what you like.

    I think Tim Buckley is a pretty big douche and CAD is a pretty mediocre webcomic. But everyone else is entitled to their opinion and I won't like them less over something as silly as this. I hope none of the fans feel bad about themselves.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephit View Post
    I read the final storyline, and even as someone who hasn't read the thing in a long time it's pretty depressing. Killing off your main character after 10 years in an anticlimactic time travel event without any warning is a pretty awful way to treat your fans.



    We don't have to like what you like.

    I think Tim Buckley is a pretty big douche and CAD is a pretty mediocre webcomic. But everyone else is entitled to their opinion and I won't like them less over something as silly as this. I hope none of the fans feel bad about themselves.

    You know, in a way I understand the anticlimatic end. Sometimes you write yourself into a corner and all you can do is start over. Sure it would have been nice if the final story arc was better, but if he had been able to write better story arcs with his characters, he wouldnt have had to press the reset button in the first place. The way I see it, at least he TRIED to create an interesting end to the story. He could have just done a, "rocks fall, ethan dies" routine and had the early days ninja show up and kill him, but he didnt. He tried to come up with as close to an epic ending as he could think of.

    And honestly, with better characters and such, it could have been an actual epic ending. The heroes choice, the noble self sacrifice, the Armegeddon style life flashing before your eyes as you willingly die to save everything, etc etc etc. But like he admitted, his character just wasnt suited to real story arcs, so it fell flat, like most of his story arcs did.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    You know, in a way I understand the anticlimatic end. Sometimes you write yourself into a corner and all you can do is start over. Sure it would have been nice if the final story arc was better, but if he had been able to write better story arcs with his characters, he wouldnt have had to press the reset button in the first place. The way I see it, at least he TRIED to create an interesting end to the story. He could have just done a, "rocks fall, ethan dies" routine and had the early days ninja show up and kill him, but he didnt. He tried to come up with as close to an epic ending as he could think of.

    And honestly, with better characters and such, it could have been an actual epic ending. The heroes choice, the noble self sacrifice, the Armegeddon style life flashing before your eyes as you willingly die to save everything, etc etc etc. But like he admitted, his character just wasnt suited to real story arcs, so it fell flat, like most of his story arcs did.
    I think it fell flat because he tried to handle it in a way that doesn't work even though he knew it wasn't going to work. There is nothing wrong with writing a serious story in an otherwise funny work but you have to be able to do so. These characters are not suited towards this kind of story and Buckley is not a good enough writer to write an 'epic' ending.

    I think Buckley makes good jokes in regards to comics. I don't think he's that bad at writing characters. There are some things that he is bad at however and he crammed all of those things into his ending.

    Saying that the characters aren't suited to arcs doesn't make any sense. They are suited to arcs that fit those characters, they are not suited to arcs like this though. So why force it? Why not have something sweet and funny?

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typewriter View Post
    I think it fell flat because he tried to handle it in a way that doesn't work even though he knew it wasn't going to work. There is nothing wrong with writing a serious story in an otherwise funny work but you have to be able to do so. These characters are not suited towards this kind of story and Buckley is not a good enough writer to write an 'epic' ending.
    I agree; the tone was completely jarring. I think it would have worked if CAD had gone for a local issue, like a crisis at the Game Haven or the house burning down again, culminating in the main cast deciding it's time to start a new life in another city. Then it wouldn't nearly have been such a downer of an ending, plus later Buckley can always bring them back if he had a change of heart.

    I think Buckley makes good jokes in regards to comics. I don't think he's that bad at writing characters.
    I'll have to disagree with this though. His characters are way too shallow for his in-depth story arcs to work. Ethan is a total Mary Sue with a whole bunch of wacky elements that don't combine well (total idiot but can build robots and time machines), and everyone else's lives completely revolve around Ethan.

    Buckley recognised this though as a reason why he wanted to reboot, which is why it was madding that he didn't at least attempt to reverse this in the ending. The ending is still completely about Ethan, and everyone else's ending is also completely about Ethan.

    I would have liked to have seen a least a few more attempts at arcs that weren't Ethan-centric, like maybe some stories about Lilah as a pro-gamer or a few more Lucas stories before Buckley pulled the plug on the whole thing.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trazoi View Post
    I'll have to disagree with this though. His characters are way too shallow for his in-depth story arcs to work. Ethan is a total Mary Sue with a whole bunch of wacky elements that don't combine well (total idiot but can build robots and time machines), and everyone else's lives completely revolve around Ethan.
    I think the biggest reinforcement of this is the character of Lilah. All her major character developments are in direct relation to Ethan. Any plot arcs she had still managed to revolve around his involvement. Her character traits are difficult to sort out because she gets so little space to do anything but be annoyed by or attracted to Ethan.

    I basically stopped reading sometime around when Lilah became a Pro Gamer IIRC, because her first major independent character arc still revolved around her getting all her strength from Ethan, even if indirectly. I'd almost think he couldn't have made Lilah more of a sock-puppet wish fulfillment female disempowerment character without somehow being in Megatokyo.

    Personally, I always thought Lucas was a great character, because he was flawed, but his flaws were treated as actual deficiencies which inconvenienced him at times, were non-arbitrary, persisted, and were consistent with his overall character. He was a great straight man, although I find myself always gravitating towards the straight man, so maybe I just like his role more than his character. He just didn't carry very many good jokes himself, and the 'serious' plots were so contrived or boring, and so often revolved around Ethan, so he was at best a snarky observer to something that was lame anyway. I thought he was by far the best character, but considering the competition...
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    The funny thing is, all the things people are complaining about in his writing and his characters are exactly what HE said he has a problem with, and is WHY he's doing the reboot, because he feels he's learned a lot as a writer in 10 years, and wants to give it a proper go.

    As for those complaining about the style of his humor, slapstick is a recognized form of humor, and many people enjoy it. By insisting that it is utter crud that no one could possibly like, you are directly insulting those people that DO like it. Myself included. Open discussion is one thing, but direct flaming and insulting, disgusting behavior like this thread is something I thought the playgrounders were BETTER than. I guess I was wrong.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
    Ettin in the Playground
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    This isn't slapstick. This is monkey cheese humor.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by leakingpen View Post
    The funny thing is, all the things people are complaining about in his writing and his characters are exactly what HE said he has a problem with, and is WHY he's doing the reboot, because he feels he's learned a lot as a writer in 10 years, and wants to give it a proper go.

    As for those complaining about the style of his humor, slapstick is a recognized form of humor, and many people enjoy it. By insisting that it is utter crud that no one could possibly like, you are directly insulting those people that DO like it. Myself included. Open discussion is one thing, but direct flaming and insulting, disgusting behavior like this thread is something I thought the playgrounders were BETTER than. I guess I was wrong.
    If you like Tim's jokes, yo deserve to be insulted. Also, maybe you could explain how he learned a lot as a writer? For the past ten years he's been churning out the same awful writig with no development.

    Anyway, new strip! Players! Dumb jokes about Wii in 2012! Same bland art! FIVE FINGERS ON EACH HAND! And look at all this character development, so rich there was no place for a joke. Although, the colors look better, maybe Buckers finally calibrated his cintiq.

    E: you are the antiheroes guy? Yeah, now I get it.
    Last edited by Ikialev; 2012-11-28 at 05:55 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    From lurking for several years, I've learned a very important thing.

    Most Playgrounders aren't nice people. They're more like snobby hipsters.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Some people are. But in comparison too outside areas of internet its a gentleman's club.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Some people are. But in comparison too outside areas of internet its a gentleman's club.
    Doesn't mean gitp doesn't have enough issues of its own.
    Last edited by Astrella; 2012-11-28 at 07:06 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    They're more like snobby hipsters
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Some people are. But in comparison too outside areas of internet its a gentleman's club.
    Hey, Dragon, good job proving his point in a single sentence.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Todays comic was stupid. The joke was stupid, the punchline was stupid, it it just wasnt any good. Hopefully next one will do better.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The end of Ctrl-Alt-Del

    Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread. There's no need to be so rude to people that like something you do not.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread. There's no need to be so rude to people that like something you do not.
    I can see what you mean but posts like Ikiavel's are more the exception than the rule here. At least in my experience.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by leakingpen View Post
    The funny thing is, all the things people are complaining about in his writing and his characters are exactly what HE said he has a problem with, and is WHY he's doing the reboot, because he feels he's learned a lot as a writer in 10 years, and wants to give it a proper go.
    It would be nice if he demonstrated what he's learnt. This reboot was his big chance to stick it to all his detractors, emerge from his monkeycheese cocoon as the beautiful creative butterfly he was always meant to be, and he has utterly squandered that opportunity. There is nothing to differentiate these new strips from the old, aside from the characters having an extra finger. And that's not going into how many opportunities he has passed up to have his characters grow and develop naturally, without abruptly killing Ethan off and upsetting his genuine fans. It's nice that he could admit that he was stagnating, but just admitting it isn't enough. He also needs to move past it and heal.

    As for those complaining about the style of his humor, slapstick is a recognized form of humor, and many people enjoy it. By insisting that it is utter crud that no one could possibly like, you are directly insulting those people that DO like it. Myself included. Open discussion is one thing, but direct flaming and insulting, disgusting behavior like this thread is something I thought the playgrounders were BETTER than. I guess I was wrong.
    For the most part this thread has been pretty civil, and is only starting to get nasty now. I for one will make an effort to keep my sarcasm in check. That comment about moving past it and healing doesn't count.
    Last edited by Fallbot; 2012-11-28 at 08:42 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleKnight View Post
    From lurking for several years, I've learned a very important thing.

    Most Playgrounders aren't nice people. They're more like snobby hipsters.
    They're really only like that if you bring up Penny Arcade, Ctrl Alt Del, Least I Could Do, or Looking For Group.

    There IS a reason why you never see those threads on here. It never ends well. Always devolves into arguments and pointless hate that really does nothing for the playground's reputation.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    Doesn't mean gitp doesn't have enough issues of its own.
    I would say the biggest one is people being far to sensitive to any percieved slight.

    No one ever said laughing at a crappy webcomic makes you a crappy person.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Ikiavel kinda did.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    How does Tim feel about stealing character design from artists randomly found through Google Image Search? Great!
    I have to say, that doesn't really look like art theft to me, inasmuch as Buckley put together the laziest, most generic "perky goth girl" look possible.

    If I were to make a checklist for the perky goth stereotype, it would be:
    * Dark hair with highlights
    * Skirt over torn jeans, with a studded belt
    * Some variation of a skull tank-top, which will always have a white undershirt because that's the only color ever allowed. It will almost always be the same color as the highlights.
    * Dumb black bracers

    If I were actually going to compare, I would point out that
    (a) Buckley's character has a notably different hairstyle, being
    (b) Buckley's character has far fewer bracelets and belts
    (c) Buckley's character lacks any buttons
    (d) Buckley's character has a much more purple hair and shirt, as opposed to the pure pink on the right
    (e) Buckley's character has a wildly generic skull shirt, as opposed to the skeleton girl and quote on the right
    (f) The coloration in general is different.

    While I can accept the girl on the right as being the primary inspiration for Buckley's character, there are several notable differences in style and design (all of which make the Buckley character worse, but still). That's not what art theft is.

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    That, on the other hand, is wildly asshat.
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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trazoi View Post
    I agree; the tone was completely jarring. I think it would have worked if CAD had gone for a local issue, like a crisis at the Game Haven or the house burning down again, culminating in the main cast deciding it's time to start a new life in another city. Then it wouldn't nearly have been such a downer of an ending, plus later Buckley can always bring them back if he had a change of heart.


    I'll have to disagree with this though. His characters are way too shallow for his in-depth story arcs to work. Ethan is a total Mary Sue with a whole bunch of wacky elements that don't combine well (total idiot but can build robots and time machines), and everyone else's lives completely revolve around Ethan.

    Buckley recognised this though as a reason why he wanted to reboot, which is why it was madding that he didn't at least attempt to reverse this in the ending. The ending is still completely about Ethan, and everyone else's ending is also completely about Ethan.

    I would have liked to have seen a least a few more attempts at arcs that weren't Ethan-centric, like maybe some stories about Lilah as a pro-gamer or a few more Lucas stories before Buckley pulled the plug on the whole thing.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't care for the fact that Ethan is central to everyone around him, but the individual characters aren't all that bad. Lilah is fine, Zeke was funny enough, and Lucas was actually enjoyable most of the time. They're not the best characters in the world and far too often they were reduced to little more than pawns in Ethans insanity, but I thought they 'good enough' and I enjoyed their inreactions (even with Ethan).

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    I have to say, that doesn't really look like art theft to me, inasmuch as Buckley put together the laziest, most generic "perky goth girl" look possible.

    If I were to make a checklist for the perky goth stereotype, it would be:
    * Dark hair with highlights
    * Skirt over torn jeans, with a studded belt
    * Some variation of a skull tank-top, which will always have a white undershirt because that's the only color ever allowed. It will almost always be the same color as the highlights.
    * Dumb black bracers

    If I were actually going to compare, I would point out that
    (a) Buckley's character has a notably different hairstyle, being
    (b) Buckley's character has far fewer bracelets and belts
    (c) Buckley's character lacks any buttons
    (d) Buckley's character has a much more purple hair and shirt, as opposed to the pure pink on the right
    (e) Buckley's character has a wildly generic skull shirt, as opposed to the skeleton girl and quote on the right
    (f) The coloration in general is different.

    While I can accept the girl on the right as being the primary inspiration for Buckley's character, there are several notable differences in style and design (all of which make the Buckley character worse, but still). That's not what art theft is.
    Eh, I'm not buying that argument. Sure, Buckley changed/left out a few details, but there are way too many similarities between the two characters for Buckley to just claim coincidence or "inspiration". (The one that stands out most to me is that both characters have a spiked bracelet on their right wrist, and a non-spiked bracelet on their left wrist.)

    If the author of the original piece had chosen to take Buckley to court over this, Buckley almost certainly would've gotten nailed for plagiarism.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typewriter View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't care for the fact that Ethan is central to everyone around him, but the individual characters aren't all that bad. Lilah is fine, Zeke was funny enough, and Lucas was actually enjoyable most of the time. They're not the best characters in the world and far too often they were reduced to little more than pawns in Ethans insanity, but I thought they 'good enough' and I enjoyed their inreactions (even with Ethan).
    Lucas at least sometimes sparked a few stories through his interests like the miniature games. Zeke felt out of place to me, mostly because he broke the setting (how can Ethan of all people make sentient robots out of consoles in his garage, yet on screen he's always an idiot?) Lilah however was reduced to an extension of Ethan and I can't remember when she was depicted doing something that didn't revolve around him. Most of the problems is when the stories tried to get serious, because there wasn't any reason for them to stick by Ethan; Ethan was a pretty thougtless and often nasty guy.

    But I agree that they were something and could have been built on from the way they were. All they needed was some more depth. Throw in a few story arcs that weren't all about Ethan, and a couple which give Ethan a nicer side, and I think it would have worked.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallbot View Post
    It would be nice if he demonstrated what he's learnt. This reboot was his big chance to stick it to all his detractors, emerge from his monkeycheese cocoon as the beautiful creative butterfly he was always meant to be, and he has utterly squandered that opportunity. There is nothing to differentiate these new strips from the old, aside from the characters having an extra finger.
    As I understand it, the new strips he's put up so far are not an attempt to show his supposed growth at all. The stuff he talked about learning was all about doing more serious story arcs with the main cast, and that's exactly the part that hasn't shown up yet. Wait for the first book/issue of Ethan etc. before judging him on that score.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    As I understand it, the new strips he's put up so far are not an attempt to show his supposed growth at all. The stuff he talked about learning was all about doing more serious story arcs with the main cast, and that's exactly the part that hasn't shown up yet. Wait for the first book/issue of Ethan etc. before judging him on that score.
    Exactly, iirc, he said these would be gag a day strips, and he would also release entire arcs all at once as he completes them. Of course he also mentioned working on his sillies too, I hope he doesnt stretch himself too thin and make everything suck.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The end of Ctrl-Alt-Del

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    As I understand it, the new strips he's put up so far are not an attempt to show his supposed growth at all. The stuff he talked about learning was all about doing more serious story arcs with the main cast, and that's exactly the part that hasn't shown up yet. Wait for the first book/issue of Ethan etc. before judging him on that score.
    When a webcomic does something as dramatic as suddenly killing off the main characters and rebooting then the judging starts immediately as readers ponder whether to keep the comic in their bookmarks. I got the impression Tim Buckley did this because he was dying to bring his strip back to gag-a-day, and if that's the case he really needs to hit the ball out of the park with his humour over the next month or I think he'll haemorrhage a lot of readers.

    If Buckley is burnt out IMO it would better to have a break entirely, maybe release nothing but Sillies for a month or two, and be open and honest that the comic restarts again proper in February.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trazoi View Post
    When a webcomic does something as dramatic as suddenly killing off the main characters and rebooting then the judging starts immediately as readers ponder whether to keep the comic in their bookmarks. I got the impression Tim Buckley did this because he was dying to bring his strip back to gag-a-day, and if that's the case he really needs to hit the ball out of the park with his humour over the next month or I think he'll haemorrhage a lot of readers.
    It's not that he wanted to bring it back to gag-a-day, it's that he got fed up with taking months to parcel out an already-completed story bit by bit, and at the same time having to pass on every gag opportunity he thinks of until said parceling-out is done (or drag it out even further).

    His solution is to release completed stories in giant lumps all at once (or maybe in temporary rapid-sequence, maybe daily updates, it's not entirely clear), and have the gags going separately all the time.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    leakingpen's Avatar

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    Default Re: The end of Ctrl-Alt-Del

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallbot View Post
    It would be nice if he demonstrated what he's learnt. This reboot was his big chance to stick it to all his detractors, emerge from his monkeycheese cocoon as the beautiful creative butterfly he was always meant to be, and he has utterly squandered that opportunity. There is nothing to differentiate these new strips from the old, aside from the characters having an extra finger. And that's not going into how many opportunities he has passed up to have his characters grow and develop naturally, without abruptly killing Ethan off and upsetting his genuine fans. It's nice that he could admit that he was stagnating, but just admitting it isn't enough. He also needs to move past it and heal.



    For the most part this thread has been pretty civil, and is only starting to get nasty now. I for one will make an effort to keep my sarcasm in check. That comment about moving past it and healing doesn't count.
    Well, the online daily is the gag strip. He's doing the STORY strip as a separate beast, and will release it in issues.

    As for nasty, once people prove themselves trolls, not interested in actual discussion but just in insulting people, I ignore them.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Nov 2012

    Default Re: The end of Ctrl-Alt-Del

    I've been reading CAD for about a year and to be honest I have loved it. I loved the characters, the humor and the storylines. I'm actually not a big gaming fan but I still quite liked the gaming jokes and made an effort to understand them. The one thing I really hated about the comic was Brian the chef who neither contributed to the storyline or to the Players, he was just pointless.

    Although being a huge fan, I can see the point of the abortion arc which was heavy for a gaming comic. I love a deeper storyline though and throughly enjoyed the development of the characters. That being said I was completely dumbfounded by the ending. It did need to happen but how it happened was terrible. I loved the idea of Lilah being the last thing to go through Ethan's head. What I detested though was how rushed the wrap up was. One comic strip showing people being sad, then everyone's fine. I couldn't believe how it was a major cop out on ending the whole story properly. The fans had no time to grieve. I'm hoping that the new comics based on the main cast will be better but I very much doubt it. He has very little love for his characters, something a real writer does have.

    In terms of Tim Buckley himself, it doesn't really matter to myself what he's like in real life. I fully believe good writer can be mean people. Its a nice perk if they are good people like in Oots and Girl Genius but its not a major problem I think.

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