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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Exclamation 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Dear ladies and gentlemen!

    We are starting a thief campaign, and I'm going to do the arcane casting part. Other characters are hadozee rogue (oh yeah), half-orc druid, halfling rogue/cleric, and Elan psion (telepath).

    The psion is likely to be rather optimized, the others probably not very (druid and cleric are strong enough, not matter what you do). We played a rather epic campaign before, this is more about interaction, roleplaying, and, well, thieving ;)

    I've always wanted to play a beguiler and it fits very well here, I think. I thought lesser tiefling (0 LA), especially since many of them are from Unther and Mulhorand which is just around the corner of where we play. I will, however, probably advise my gamemaster to nerf the lesser tiefling a bit, I find it quite strong in contrast to other races (maybe take the resistances away).

    In any case - I'd be happy for recommendations. I read the handbook and some sample builds, but didn't really find a lot of Tiefling builds (why? It seems like the perfect race, maybe except for gnomes. I don't want to play a gnome, though. Stubborn me!).

    I am looking for a reasonable build up to level 10 for now, but feel free to provide ideas to level 20. I want to be flexible, sneaky, cool. I want to be full of surprises, never out of tricks. I don't want to do damage. Probably won't have a vow or something, or play a good character, but this should not be optimized for damage at all.

    ~ Stats
    STR8 DEX16 CON10 INT 20 WIS 12 CHA 14
    (we use 8 10 12 14 16 18):
    That gives me enough DEX to sneak around and enough CHA to play Mr face. Still not sure whether I should take arcane disciple feat, in which I will need higher Wisdom. If not, I should probably swap WIS and CON.

    ~ Build
    Up to level 5 is easy - Beguiler. Characters will be neutral and good, so the standard prestige classes like Nightmare Spinner and Mindbender might be slightly too evil. Also, Mindbender + Mindsight is pretty cheesy and can easily ruin campaigns, so I'm not sure if I like the idea. Not interested in Shadowcraft Mage Gnome cheese

    Then again, I don't really understand the Beguiler class. Silent and Still Spell, meh. Surprise Casting seems like utter crap because I need to be in _melee_ with enemies and use the bluff skill ... why would a 6 hit die class ever want to be in melee? No thanks. Also, the level 2 "Surprise Casting" description in the PHB II (Beguiler) is identical to the description of "feinting in combat" under the skills/bluff section in the PHB I. So I can do something at second level that anybody can always do if he or she has bluff? I don't get it (I understand that it becomes a move action at level6, but not why it is mentioned at level 2).
    So, not sure where to go from here. I'd like to be flexible, and use my INT. I don't want to play a damage dealer (Swashbuckler / Assassin is an amazing build if you're going for that), the others will do the damage.

    ~ Feats
    * I might get Mind over Body at lvl 1 regional feat, which is probably one of the best feats in the game. +1AC +lots of HP ... I might be fine with CON10 with that build.
    * Versatile Spellcaster
    * Spell focus Illusion and Enchantment
    * Unsettling Enchantment sounds interesting (Any foe required to save against an enchantment spell you cast takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and to AC for 1 round, regardless of the result of the save)
    * Mastery of Twisted Shadow sounds amazing: gain concealment as swift action for rounds/spell-level when casting Illusion spells. It's really not in any Beguiler guides, but as far as I understand the hide rules you can roll a hide check when concealed. What do you think about it? What happens if I cast a concealed spell in bright daylight, while looking the bartender into the eye - will I become concealed, making my spellcasting totally obvious? How does it work?
    * Precocious apprentice. As far as I understand this, it gives me +2 spellcraft and an additional 2nd level spell slot? That sounds like a lot.
    * Arcane Schooling. Can a Beguiler use Sorc/Wiz spells with UMD? If not, would that feat be worth it?
    * Vow of Non Violence. Soooo good. But probably doesn't work with a Tiefling in a Thief campaign?
    * Touch of distraction. I haven't played a spellcaster before, what does a +1 competence bonus to enchantment spells do exactly? Does it raise the DC?
    * Arcane Disciple. Hmmm travel domain ;) ... but I'd need at least WIS of 14 to start with. Difficult in a build in which I need INT DEX and CHA.
    * Mobile Spellcasting: Conc check 20+ spell level, and you can cast spell AND walk in one standard action. Wow. But probably not needed for a beguiler?
    * Mastery of Dreams: +1 DC on illusion and fear spells, needs planes (4) spellcraft (9).
    * And of course Mindsight

    Glad about comments - especially additional ways to increase my Illusion and Enchantment spell DCs. No matter my Intelligence, most spells will be lvl 1 and 2, and the DCs are simply rather low.

    Thank you!
    ta-ta

    ~T
    Last edited by Torvon; 2012-11-26 at 07:25 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Picking up the Bloodline feats from the Dragon Compendium can get you a few more spells known.

    Take Versatile Spellcaster. Even if you don't cheese an extra spell level with it, it's a handy feat. If you feel like picking up more spells know, dip a level into Dread Necro and/or Warmage so you can have access to their whole lists.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-11-26 at 07:33 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    i thinkmaster specialist/unseen seer/magic trickster/uncanny trickster are solid prc for role play and your background.

    the first two have some nice class features, the last two are for spellcaster/skill monkey build, if you dont mind lose 1 or 2 cl.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Progression:
    Prestige bard, wich was recently bought up on these boards, is a very nice option for progressing a beguiller. You will lose a couple spellcasting level, but in excange you'll get an huge boost to your spells selection and bardic music on top of it.

    Skills:

    Skill tricks can do a lot for beguillers, Conceal Spellcasting is AMAZING, and many others are worth the skill point investment.

    Feats:

    If you have access to FR material, Shadow Weave Magic works as spell focus in both illusion and enchantment (and stacks).
    Darkstalker is a great feat if you are going for a stealth build (you ARE going for a stealth build, right?)
    Invisible spell ia a very nice feat on its own (and comboes with Conceal Spellcasting), and cam become really broken depending how much you stretch the RAW-RAI debtate.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Picking up the Bloodline feats from the Dragon Compendium can get you a few more spells known.
    If you feel like picking up more spells know, dip a level into Dread Necro and/or Warmage so you can have access to their whole lists.
    Thanks. Bloodline feats are a 2 feat investment, if I understand correctly (obtain familiar + feat) - quite a bit to get access to 2 or 3 spells at the low level we will start.
    Both warmage and dread necro are pretty melee heavy classes with damage and necro spells, none of which is really of interest to me. Sandshaper is an amazing PrC when it comes to spells to add, but the requirements are pretty insane, and it doesn't fit at all with the character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viscerator View Post
    i thinkmaster specialist/unseen seer/magic trickster/uncanny trickster are solid prc for role play and your background.
    the first two have some nice class features, the last two are for spellcaster/skill monkey build, if you dont mind lose 1 or 2 cl.
    * Beguilers do not qualify for Master Specialist, I think ("Requirements: Must be a specialist wizard")
    * Unseen Seer: it reduces my caster level for spells that are not divination (!), let's me add only divination spells to my spell list, gives me sneak damage that I don't want/need, and gives me silent spell feat which I have already via Beguiler. I don't think it's good at all for the Beguiler.
    * Magic trickster: Love it !! lvl 1 "Spontaneous Trickster" is awesome. I can cast concealed all day!! And the lvl 3 feature is lovely as well (DC+1).
    * Uncanny Trickster: it's a lot worse than magic trickster, I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by docnessuno View Post
    Progression:
    Prestige bard, wich was recently bought up on these boards, is a very nice option for progressing a beguiller. You will lose a couple spellcasting level, but in excange you'll get an huge boost to your spells selection and bardic music on top of it.

    Skills:

    Skill tricks can do a lot for beguillers, Conceal Spellcasting is AMAZING, and many others are worth the skill point investment.

    Feats:

    If you have access to FR material, Shadow Weave Magic works as spell focus in both illusion and enchantment (and stacks).
    Darkstalker is a great feat if you are going for a stealth build (you ARE going for a stealth build, right?)
    Invisible spell ia a very nice feat on its own (and comboes with Conceal Spellcasting), and cam become really broken depending how much you stretch the RAW-RAI debtate.
    * PrC Bard looks interesting, although I really don't like the bard flavor for a Tiefling Beguiler. Maybe I can convince my DM to reflavour it into a demagogue or something ;) Do I get all Bard spells? That would be weird, seeing that a Bard himself only can have very few ones of his spell list? My DM probably will not allow increasing my spell list by like 1500%. It sounds pretty broken and not how the class was designed (spontaneous casting, but therefor limited spell list). But maybe I misunderstood/misread.
    * Conceal Spellcasting is amazing, especially if combined with arcane trickster (do it as often as you want as long as you sacrifice spells for it).
    * Shadow Weave: a follower of Shar is absolutely nothing I am interested in playing. Losing 2 points of Wisdom for a feat neither. The feat is nice, but I think a bit too special.
    * What is the good part about invisible spell - what kind of spells would really benefit from that? It feels like I want my Illusion spells to be seen, and most of my enchantment is invisible anyway (sleep makes them sleep, but there is no visible effect).
    Last edited by Torvon; 2012-11-26 at 08:58 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis
    That would meas that all PHB spells are added to your list, while splatbook's ones require DM's approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB2
    When you gain a new level of spells, you automaticly know all spells of that level on the Beguiller spell list
    So yes, RAW you would get a LOT of additional spells, of course Rule 0 is always a thing.

    About invisible spellcasting: i din't check the whole beguiller spell list, but the main point is:
    - You look absolutely normal, minding your own business (Conceal spellcasting)
    - Things happen without any visual effect
    - Poeple go crazy trying to understand what happened.

    About shadow weave: Well the character concept really seemed to mesh well with a follower of shar, but it's your call after all. If you are not playing Fr but the material is allowed your DM may allow you to switch the feat to a deity you like more.
    Last edited by docnessuno; 2012-11-26 at 09:06 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Note that there is a Slight of Hand use in Races of Stone that at least partially obviates Conceal Spellcasting.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Questions:

    (1) Can I use wands with spells that are not on my spell list ? E.g. Wizard?
    (2) Mastery of Twisted Shadow (feat): how does that work? The hide rules seem to allow you to roll a hide check when concealed. What do you think about it? Also, will it give away when I am concealed casting, because all of a sudden there is like, a shadow over me?
    (3) Feint in combat, PHB I, is the identical text to the level 2 special Beguiler ability "Surprise Casting". What is the special part of that ability if it is something everybody can do when he has the Bluff skill?
    (4) What can "silent spell" be used for? Since spells have audio and somatic component, hiding 50% of it won't help, right?
    Last edited by Torvon; 2012-11-26 at 11:36 PM.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Torvon View Post
    * Beguilers do not qualify for Master Specialist, I think ("Requirements: Must be a specialist wizard")
    * Unseen Seer: it reduces my caster level for spells that are not divination (!), let's me add only divination spells to my spell list, gives me sneak damage that I don't want/need, and gives me silent spell feat which I have already via Beguiler. I don't think it's good at all for the Beguiler.
    * Magic trickster: Love it !! lvl 1 "Spontaneous Trickster" is awesome. I can cast concealed all day!! And the lvl 3 feature is lovely as well (DC+1).
    * Uncanny Trickster: it's a lot worse than magic trickster, I think.
    *you are right, I forgot master specialist's requirement.

    *I thought you were seeking stealth/dps type spellcaster. For dps, unseen seer is pretty good because you can grab hunterís eye from ranger's spell list, a uncapped spell to grant HUGE d6s sneak attack .

    I don't quite often build skill monkey/stealth type spellcasters anyway~

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Torvon View Post
    Questions:

    (1) Can I use wands with spells that are not on my spell list ? E.g. Wizard?
    (2) Mastery of Twisted Shadow (feat): how does that work? The hide rules seem to allow you to roll a hide check when concealed. What do you think about it? Also, will it give away when I am concealed casting, because all of a sudden there is like, a shadow over me?
    (3) Feint in combat, PHB I, is the identical text to the level 2 special Beguiler ability "Surprise Casting". What is the special part of that ability if it is something everybody can do when he has the Bluff skill?
    (4) What can "silent spell" be used for? Since spells have audio and somatic component, hiding 50% of it won't help, right?
    1. Yes, if you make a DC 20 Use Magical Device check. Beguilers get loads of skill points and have UMD as a class skill so it's worth keeping UMD maxed.

    2. I haven't seen that feat, sorry.

    3. Surprise casting causes the target to lose their dex to AC for the next spell you cast. Without it, feinting only affects melee attacks. This allows the target to be affected by your Cloaked Casting abilities.

    4. Silent spell isn't amazing if you're being watched (there's a skill trick for this in Complete Scoundrel that allows you to hide your casting with Sleight of Hand). It does have some other uses- for example:
    • Casting while you can't speak because of magic or being gagged
    • Casting when you're hiding from something and don't want to give away your position
    • Casting while invisible. Silently create an illusion of yourself and fool your friends.
    Last edited by Studoku; 2012-11-27 at 12:52 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by docnessuno View Post
    That would meas that all PHB spells are added to your list, while splatbook's ones require DM's approval.



    So yes, RAW you would get a LOT of additional spells, of course Rule 0 is always a thing.
    Just for reference, the spells in the PHB that are on the Bard's (and only the Bard's) spell list, are: Sympathetic Vibration, Song of Discord, Zone of Silence, Modify Memory, Sculpt Sound, Glibness, Good Hope, Lesser Confusion, Lullaby, and Summon Instrument.

    Still a bunch of gems in there (especially Glibness) that you couldn't get otherwise.
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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Sand Shaper is good but looses you a caster level. I'd look at Fiend-blooded from Heroes of Horror if I were you. Good flavor for a Thiefling, no casting lost, extra spells from any list(!), and a bonus Int as a topping.
    Last edited by Grim Reader; 2012-11-27 at 08:56 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Stats: Standard advice for Beguilers is to prioritize Constitution over Dexterity. You have spells to make you sneaky and you shouldn't be in range of enemies' attacks, while you want your Concentration bonus as high as possible, particularly once you hit 12th and can get Extraordinary Concentration.

    Also, you don't really need a good Charisma to be a face as a Beguiler. Glibness covers Bluff, while synergy bonuses more than make up for Diplomacy (and you have charm person).

    Build: Mindbender is good even if you don't pick up Mindsight; telepathy is invaluable for coordinating a party when you want to be silent. And while you can't be Good, it's not exactly Evil, either, especially if you're only dipping one level. I also like Shadow Adept, though you kind of have to worship Shar.

    Dipping Illusionist sets you behind a caster level, but lets you get the Chains of Disbelief ACF. Swordsage would let you get the Shadow Trickster feat.

    Feats: Unless you're going to expand your spell list, Invisible Spell isn't that great for a Beguiler, since just about the only spells you cast that have a visible effect are illusions.

    Mastery of Twisted Shadow looks okay. You can choose to gain concealment, so you don't have to worry about blowing your cover.

    If you feel like using your whelm spells and/or power word: pain, Coercive Spell is very nice. And if you don't, see if you can convince the Druid or Cleric to take it and throw a Coercive flame strike around every so often to soften your enemies up for your spells.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Reader View Post
    Sand Shaper is good but looses you a caster level. I'd look at Fiend-blooded from Heroes of Horror if I were you. Good flavor for a Thiefling, no casting lost, extra spells from any list(!), and a bonus Int as a topping.
    I had a player in a short-lived campaign (might try to continue it at some point..) who played a Lesser Tiefling Beguiler going into Fiend-blooded, it really seems to work perfectly. You can also round out the levels with Unseen Seer for general goodness.
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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Unseen seer's caster level problem may be overcome by taking practised spellcaster feat.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Just for reference, the spells in the PHB that are on the Bard's (and only the Bard's) spell list, are: Sympathetic Vibration, Song of Discord, Zone of Silence, Modify Memory, Sculpt Sound, Glibness, Good Hope, Lesser Confusion, Lullaby, and Summon Instrument.
    Still a bunch of gems in there (especially Glibness) that you couldn't get otherwise.
    Except for the fact that Glibness is on the Beguiler's spell list ;). Thank you for the list, though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Reader View Post
    Sand Shaper is good but looses you a caster level. I'd look at Fiend-blooded from Heroes of Horror if I were you. Good flavor for a Thiefling, no casting lost, extra spells from any list(!), and a bonus Int as a topping.
    It says you must be humanoid and not a half-fiend to enter the class. A Tiefling is humanoid, right? The feats to get into the class kind of suck, and the buff to the familiar too because I will be sooo featstarved that I cannot get the obtain familiar feat. The resistances also suck because I assume they do not stack with the Tiefling's, correct? Overall, the class is nice though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Stats: Standard advice for Beguilers is to prioritize Constitution over Dexterity. ...
    Thank you for all the input, Jeff. You're right about the stats. The nice thing is that with "mind over body" regional feat, and all the metamagic feats that the classes give me, I'll actually be ok on the hitpoint side. Coercive spell looks nice, but I don't have a feat slot for that. However, reading up on that I found this feat:

    "Blend into Shadows". Since Tiefling can also spell-like darkness, they qualify. It basically gives me "hide in plain sight" once per day as a swift action. Sounds pretty amazing to me, what do you guys think?

    Thank you ;)

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Torvon View Post
    The nice thing is that with "mind over body" regional feat, and all the metamagic feats that the classes give me, I'll actually be ok on the hitpoint side. Coercive spell looks nice, but I don't have a feat slot for that. However, reading up on that I found this feat:

    "Blend into Shadows". Since Tiefling can also spell-like darkness, they qualify. It basically gives me "hide in plain sight" once per day as a swift action. Sounds pretty amazing to me, what do you guys think?
    Constitution isn't generally recommended for HP's sake, since a Beguiler shouldn't be hit in the first place. Your x image spells are one of your more powerful tools, and so you want your Concentration modifier high, plus Fortitude is your bad save.

    Blend into Shadows is okay, but you have plenty of ways of getting concealment to hide out of plain sight.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by IdleMuse View Post
    I had a player in a short-lived campaign (might try to continue it at some point..) who played a Lesser Tiefling Beguiler going into Fiend-blooded, it really seems to work perfectly. You can also round out the levels with Unseen Seer for general goodness.
    As the Lesser-Tiefling Fiend-Blooded Beguiler, I'd like to see more of that game. It was fun and I'd actually like to get some fiend-blooded levels.

    Fiend-blooded beguiler is a really fun combination but it is a bit of a pain to qualify for. It was a little easier for me- we were using flaws and a houserule for the game that gave everyone Eschew Materials (since we were in the world's largest dungeon and it would have been a pain to have to find material components). He added having a familiar to the prereqs as a feat tax instead.

    We were also using flaws, which gave me the feat slot I needed for Apprentice Spellcaster. If you're going the fiend-blooded route, you need Knowledge:The Planes as a class skill to get the 8 ranks at level 5. This way also gives you UMD as a class skill for your fiend-blooded levels.

    If you do jump through all these hoops, you get Fiendish Sorcery, which is really useful. Being able to add fire spells (including divine fire spells) to your list gives you offensive capabilities that people dever expect a beguiler to have.

    Although if you want more things on your spell list, you could try going for Rainbow Servant. Just expect to have a DMG thrown at you.
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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Your x image spells are one of your more powerful tools, and so you want your Concentration modifier high.
    Sorry, I don't understand.

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    Default Re: 3.5 ~ Lesser Tiefling Beguiler

    Quote Originally Posted by Torvon View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand.
    Silent image, minor image, major image. All of which have concentration as their duration.

    You don't actually need a high concentration modifier for this- if you're being attacked there are more productive things than illusions for you to do. A high concentration modifier is nice anyway for defensive casting though- especially if you try to feint people.
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