PURE Warlock builds? Eldritch Glaive..

[Zoltan]

I have a Warlock level 5. So far my build is: Feats - Weapon Focus (touch), Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot. Spells - Sickening Blast, Summon Swarm "Bats", & Spider climb. Spec. abilities - Detect Magic, & Decieve item.

I've read through Thinblades guide, The New Warlock Handbook @ Giant in the Playground, Shinken's Guide, and a handful of others. It all feels repetitive and seems to go back to.. you must play a Melee Warlock in order to be viable.

My goals, I'm new. Id like to do dps, but I have learned I do enjoy debuffing. Are there any pure Warlock builds that can do decent DPS?

And must I go Glaivlock to do decent dps to keep up w/ other classes? (Honestly I am unsure if the DM would allow Eldritch Glaive)

As for builds, What is a Blastlock? And are there any others? Popular demand appears to be Glaivelock and Clawlock, if you do anything else your gimping your class is what I have pretty much read.

[killianh]

PURE? not so much. But usually a dip into something else is enough to really unlock the warlock (pun fully intended).

for straight warlock try Binder 1/warlock 16/hellfire warlock 3 using the binder level to bind naberus to negate the con damage.

A cheesier version involves legacy champion to progress hell fire warlock past the 3 level max.

For a nice, power, and well rounded warlock take on Warlock 1/Binder 1/Warlock +3/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 9/HFW 3/ED +1. With that you get the same power from warlock and hell fire warlock, with full divine casting as a bonus

[Quirp]

What you want is taking a level in the Binder class from Tome of Magic to be able to bind Naberius. This boosts your social abilities and heals one point of attribute damage per round. The latter is important since Hellfire Warlock damages your Con to increase your damage.
If you want to stay pure warlock, buy the items that increase your blast damage.
Never forget that the warlock is not the one that deals huge amounts of damage, but the one that kills his enemies slowly, while they are blind, slowed and nauseated and can't do anything against it.

[killianh]

What you want is taking a level in the Binder class from Tome of Magic to be able to bind Naberius. This boosts your social abilities and heals one point of attribute damage per round. The latter is important since Hellfire Warlock damages your Con to increase your damage.
If you want to stay pure warlock, buy the items that increase your blast damage.
Never forget that the warlock is not the one that deals huge amounts of damage, but the one that kills his enemies slowly, while they are blind, slowed and nauseated and can't do anything against it.

pretty much this. A warlock's true power isn't straight damage as it is being able to go invisible, see invisibility, fly, sicken, all at will while firing lasers from the sky. One of the blast invocations makes the ray 250ft so you can stay that high above the fight and not worry about a thing.

[Krazzman]

First off all at the moment it seems like that because it is true.

DPS as a Warlock stem from 3 sources: HFW/Multiclass-cheese, Glaive-lock or clawlock.

Blastlock's are Warlocks that focus their effort on their Eldritch Blast at range.

For a "good" setup:
PBS, Precise Shot, [Free], Empower SLA, Maximise SLA, Quicken SLA, Flyby attack.

As you have read in the NWH your lesser invocations are mostly fixed.
I for my personal liking of Warlock Invocations would've taken these:
See the Unseen, Entropic Warding, Baleful Utterance. the lesser ones I would take in this order (since The Dead Walk is not viable in the campaign I'm in) Flee the Scene, Fell Flight, Walk Unseen.

At level 11 you have the chance to either take Chilling Tentacles or Vitriolic Blast first.

Another point of considering would be Eldritch Chain as you can now deal your EB to more than only one target. But this would only be viable if you have some form of Debuffing.

Then I would probably advice following Invocs:
See the Unseen, Baleful Utterance, [status effect blast], Flee the Scene, Eldritch Chain/Fell Flight, Fell Flight/Eldritch Chain, Vitriolic Blast/Chilling Tentacles.

Items of note:
various Wands (with the UMD to power it), Monocle of the Artificer, Gloves of Eldritch Admixture/Gloves of heartfelt blows, Chasuble of Fell Power, Greater, Warlock's Sceptre, Mitrhal Chainshirt +x with magic effect to your likes and something dex and charisma boosting.

Now why Melee is more viable to deal damage stems from the fact that as a blasterlock you have 1 shot (or one chain or 2 tops quickened). With Eldritch Glaive you can get up 3 Attacks for just being there + additional 3 attacks from quicken. Meaning you'll deal more damage as your to-hit value is sufficient.

hope this helps.

[Fable Wright]

To be honest, Glaivelocks actually make for the best debuffing Warlock build. Each hit with the Glaive forces another save against the debuff. If you want to be a straight Warlock, it's your best DPS option. If you can multiclass, though, the Eldritch Theurge PrC actually can let you deal decent damage per round at range by tacking AoE spells onto your Eldritch Blasts, adding up to 15d8 damage per blast. Alternatively, you could put AoE debuffs/Battlefield Control at the end of your blast, which might be more up your alley. It's also pretty much the only way to add damage to an Eldritch Blast that a Glaivelock can't benefit from. Otherwise, your damage may be subpar.

This might not necessarily be a bad thing- it depends on the optimization level of your group. If you are playing with Sword and Board fighters and non-TWF Rogues, you're probably still going to be able to contribute plenty to the party. Plus, if you ever feel like you're being left behind by the party, you can easily retrain some invocations for Eldritch Glaive, take Extra Invocation, or grab Rod of Eldritch Power to pick Eldritch Glaive up and start cranking up the damage.

[Mnemnosyne]

If by 'pure warlock' you mean 'warlock and warlock-themed prestige classes only', sure. Hellfire Warlock does that nicely. The binder dip others have suggested is a good idea, but if you don't even want to have that one level of non-warlock, just take Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest. It gives you damage reduction 1/- for ability damage, which absorbs the point of constitution damage caused by hellfire blasts.

Without hellfire blast, though, you really do need eldritch glaive or claws to do competitive damage, because hitting once per round for xd6 isn't enough. That's not to say a straight warlock can't be useful without one of those things, but they won't really be competitive on damage. And they're less useful at everything else than a wizard is, although they can do it more often.

There is one other option: you can be an inferior artificer. At level 12 you get imbue item, so you can craft any item, and with your ability to take 10 on Use Magic Device, you can use them, too. Even scrolls. However, unlike the artificer, you get no craft reserve, no way to take xp out of one item and put it into a new one, and no bonus crafting feats. So you're burning feat slots and experience points in order to craft, while the artificer does it better because she can use the craft reserve and items she disassembles for xp, and she has her feats for other things (such as cost reducers).

[GenghisDon]

I hope no DM's allow the incarnum cheese to work. It's far from RAI. Hell, Naberus is pushing it. Spend a few GP on wands.

It seems unlikely EITHER will fly with his DM, seeing as eld glaive is doubtful

[AmberVael]

I hope no DM's allow the incarnum cheese to work. It's far from RAI. Hell, Naberus is pushing it. Spend a few GP on wands.

It seems unlikely EITHER will fly with his DM, seeing as eld glaive is doubtful

"Oh sweet Tymora, he took a feat and a prestige class with bad prerequisites and now he's doing a whole extra 21 damage without being forced to kill himself! Oh the humanity!"

Yeah, I've never had a problem with allowing it myself. Is it RAI? No, not really. Do I care? No, not really. 21 damage isn't small, but when you're talking about a boost to warlock damage... well, in some games it might be problematic. In many others, however, it is just going to make the warlock competitive.

Under most circumstances, it isn't something to be concerned about. Now if someone pulls out the hellfire warlock advancement cheese at the same time, it may be time to be concerned.

[Psyren]

Hell, Naberus is pushing it.

Naberius does not "push it" in any way, shape or form. There's nothing special about the ability damage from Hellfire, therefore it can be healed after the fact just fine. Even the fluff synergizes wonderfully.

If you make your Con an odd number, there are no effects to the Warlock at all.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hey, I put a lot of work into the new Warlock guide explicitly to provide an alternative to the melee 'lock. Don't hate.

The fast and easy (well, not quite so) route would be to grab a Rod of Eldritch Power (Eldritch Chain) as soon as possible, as well as a Warlock's Scepter, Chausible of Fell Power, Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, and Bracers of the Entangling Blast. Acquire these others whenever you can; you are in no great rush. All these items are from the Magic Item Compendium except for the Rod of Eldritch Power.

You will want to grab Maximize Spell-Like Ability at 6, and Quicken Spell-Like Ability at 12. Empower Spell-Like is optional, but nevertheless recommended. If you use Brimstone Blast to qualify for Hellfire Warlock (which comes recommended highly, even if you have to use a wand of Lesser Restoration or some other cost-ineffective method of shrugging off the damage), make sure these blasts are maximized, so the fire damage dealt is maximized each round (though I recommend Hellrime Blast myself). All of these feats are either in the Dungeon Master's Guide (Quicken, Empower) or Complete Arcane (Maximize)

Use the charges from the magic items TOGETHER WITH (not separately from) the Maximize/Empower SLA feats. Use one charge at a time, to increase the longevity somewhat (unless it's a boss monster, in which case you use all your charges at once). You sacrifice some longevity with your blasts by not spreading everything out further, but the big problem with the Warlock is that the adventuring day is rarely (if ever) more than four or five encounters long anyway--if you burn all your best tricks to do good damage for two or three rounds for two or three encounters, you can still fall back on crowd control the rest of the time (or just do the standard damage loadout).

Late in the game (after twelve levels of single-classed Warlock), two levels in Chameleon (Races of Destiny) will help greatly to bring all this together. You will lose a dark invocation (which is underwhelming) and 1d6 Eldritch Blast damage (which is pitiful at that level), but you can use the floating feat to grab any item creation feat (which allows you to make all of the above magic items yourself), plus you can use the floating feat to grab Extra Invocation for the blast shape, essence, or battlefield control invocation of your choosing. If you have the opportunity (and are Human, which your feat count suggests), consult your DM about retraining Weapon Focus to Able Learner (you are rapidly approaching the point where you will pass most of your ranged attack rolls on a 2, and you will never succeed on a 1 anyway).

The problem, of course, is that a Glaivelock can do this two to four times as well, by definition of how iterative attacks work, but don't be disheartened; in a low- to mid-optimization groups, NOBODY is doing thousands of damage or killing all the things with dirty looks anyway, so the damage you will be doing with a ranged Warlock will contribute just fine (and the damage a claw lock or Glaivelock, with high-end optimization, will be absurdly out of place).

Which leads me to ask: what does the rest of the party look like? Not only their classes, but how are they utilizing them (and how effectively)?

[Talionis]

Glaive is in Dragon Magic, that is a fairly normal book to be acceptable.

More Damage can come from iteratives, so spells like Divine Power are a huge help either in Wand ( you are good at Use Magical Device) or in a Dip into the Elderitch Disciple Prestige class to be able to cast cleric buffs. In high optimization using DMM helps make the buffs permanent.

The other option is getting attacks of opportunity. The Glaive also works for those.

Also remember you can use Sneak Attack damage with the Glaive, so Assassin's Stance would grant a little more damage with a couple feats...

[ThiagoMartell]

First of all - drop those feats, they are awful. All of them.

Some people are suggesting sneak attack. It sucks with eldritch glaive - you only get the bonus once per round according to the rules on weaponlike spells.
Eldritch Claws by itself is pretty much a fix for warlock damage. As a straight warlock, if you choose good items and stick to claw/glaive, you'll be able to deal reliable damage and do some debuffing with glaive.

If you want to be a main damage dealer at range, single class warlock is simply not the build for you.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wasn't the ruling that you could only apply sneak attack to voley spells (1 attack roll); but that you could aplly it if the spell allowed for more than 1 attack roll per round?

[ThiagoMartell]

Wasn't the ruling that you could only apply sneak attack to voley spells (1 attack roll); but that you could aplly it if the spell allowed for more than 1 attack roll per round?

No, Rules Compendium specifically states that spells that generate multiple attack rolls only get sneak attack added to it once.

[AmberVael]

No, Rules Compendium specifically states that spells that generate multiple attack rolls only get sneak attack added to it once.

Specifically, it says:

A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action ... allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.

Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action. Therefore, precision damage applies to all attacks made with it so long as it isn't quickened or something.

[eggs]

Wait. So something like a Rogue/Sorcerer's Empowered Scorching Ray would qualify for multiple Sneak Attacks? That's very interesting.

EDIT:
Checked rules compendium. Scratch that. Spells follow stricter rules than "forms of attack" in a general sense.

[ThiagoMartell]

Specifically, it says:


Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action. Therefore, precision damage applies to all attacks made with it so long as it isn't quickened or something.

I stand corrected then.

[Lonely Tylenol]

No, Rules Compendium specifically states that spells that generate multiple attack rolls only get sneak attack added to it once.

Incidentally, if Legacy Champion cheese is off the table, as is the Chameleon dip, Warlock 6/Hellfire Warlock 3/Swordsage 1/Arcane Trickster 10 will get you 14d6 base Eldritch Blast damage, plus 7d6 Sneak Attack damage, plus whatever you get for items and feats (you can get items that increase both, I am certain), and do it twice with Quicken Spell. You will also get your Concentration bonus to all three of your saves (if you have been putting ranks into Concentration, which I hope you have), and maybe some means of getting that Sneak Attack damage thrown in (the Swift Invisibility boost, for instance).

Off-topic note, but Thiago, I will be offering other builds to the Warlock handbook, with less cheese applied (I just couldn't resist sharing what appeared to be a truly original thought to the TO world).

[Socratov]

Don't forget about bloodlines and uncanny trickster used with hfw

[ThiagoMartell]

Off-topic note, but Thiago, I will be offering other builds to the Warlock handbook, with less cheese applied (I just couldn't resist sharing what appeared to be a truly original thought to the TO world).

Good news!

[Zoltan]

Well the DM is new and is still reading up on all the material. He said no to anything dragon. It is a custom wolrd, and that book has not been introduced. He also thinks I would die alot, and that it is an inferior build. But wutevs. (Glaivelock, etc.)

We have access to these books: Planar Handbook, Spell Compendium, Complete: Adventurer, Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Warrior. And Def. of the Faith, exp. psionic handbook, Secret college of necro, song and silence, sword and fist, Assasins handbook, tome and blood. Core: Dungeon Masters guide 1 &2, Monster Manual 1+, Player Handbook 1&2.

He did say we can do prestige classes later on, and multi class is possible but.. it needs to be related somehow to my character's background/environment. So far I was a failed wizard, who became a decent sorcerer for first few levels and now a Warlock. Honestly, from what I have read above, the HELLFIRE Warlock sounds like my best option for blastlocking.

I am now a lvl 6 Warlock trying to figure out a new feat, and I am thinking of changing out Summon Swarm for Baleful Utterance as it sounds very useful.

For my lvl 6 lesser I think Eldritch Chain would be good.

AS for the new feat I am not sure, Touch Spell Specialization - +2 damage on touch attacks could be useful, but for the long run It might be a mistake?
Perhaps spell penetration, or.. ?

Really thanks for all the replies, its a bit confusing as your all pros, but good info I'm sure.

Current feats: Weapon Focus (touch), Precise Shot, & Point Blank Shot.

[Zoltan]

Hey, I put a lot of work into the new Warlock guide explicitly to provide an alternative to the melee 'lock. Don't hate.

Which leads me to ask: what does the rest of the party look like? Not only their classes, but how are they utilizing them (and how effectively)?

Thank you for this informative reply.

So far our group has an idiotic paladin, favored soul cleric, dragon warrior who does crazy dmg, Warlock, and an op. Zen archer who does probably 40-70% of the groups dps.

W/ Maximize Spell like ability it says.. Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at caster level 6th or higher. Is this an annoying way of saying I need to be lvl 6?

[phlidwsn]

Thank you for this informative reply.

So far our group has an idiotic paladin, favored soul cleric, dragon warrior who does crazy dmg, Warlock, and an op. Zen archer who does probably 40-70% of the groups dps.

Darn, looks like I cannot get Maximize Spell-Like Ability, until I get Spell-Like ability first.

All warlock invocations, including Eldritch Blast, are Spell-like Abilities.

[Zoltan]

So If I enable edlritch chain, it makes my blast lvl 6 which qualifies it to be maximized?

& w/ Point Blank Shot feat the DM said that it only gives me +1 to my attack, but not damage. I dont get why it does not do it to damage too.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well the DM is new and is still reading up on all the material. He said no to anything dragon. It is a custom wolrd, and that book has not been introduced. He also thinks I would die alot, and that it is an inferior build. But wutevs. (Glaivelock, etc.)

We have access to these books: Planar Handbook, Spell Compendium, Complete: Adventurer, Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Warrior. And Def. of the Faith, exp. psionic handbook, Secret college of necro, song and silence, sword and fist, Assasins handbook, tome and blood. Core: Dungeon Masters guide 1 &2, Monster Manual 1+, Player Handbook 1&2.

He's allowing Eldritch Glaive, but not the book it's in? Peculiar... But fortuitous.

He did say we can do prestige classes later on, and multi class is possible but.. it needs to be related somehow to my character's background/environment. So far I was a failed wizard, who became a decent sorcerer for first few levels and now a Warlock. Honestly, from what I have read above, the HELLFIRE Warlock sounds like my best option for blastlocking.

Be sure Fiendish Codex II is available (or Hellfire Warlock won't be an option).

I am now a lvl 6 Warlock trying to figure out a new feat, and I am thinking of changing out Summon Swarm for Baleful Utterance as it sounds very useful.

For my lvl 6 lesser I think Eldritch Chain would be good.

Baleful Utterance is good (and more importantly, Summon Swarm has not scaled well), but if you can afford to wait, you can grab Eldritch Chain on a Rod of Eldritch Power (Complete Mage) if you can get your DM to allow it. It's a little expensive (16,000gp), but Eldritch Chain 5/day--which is more than you'll use it most days.

AS for the new feat I am not sure, Touch Spell Specialization - +2 damage on touch attacks could be useful, but for the long run It might be a mistake?
Perhaps spell penetration, or.. ?

Maximize Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability are both available once you can cast a spell-like ability at caster level 6th (you can). They are both worth considering (though maximize is better).

Maximize is in Complete Arcane, and Empower is in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Current feats: Weapon Focus (touch), Precise Shot, & Point Blank Shot.

You may, at some point, consider retraining these, particularly the last two if you go Glaivelock (ranged feats for a melee build). I've already explained why Weapon Focus is going to quickly stop mattering.

[Medic!]

Complete Arcane lays out the interaction between PBS and Eldritch Blast (it should get the +1 damage). Definately grab Baleful Utterance, it's rediculously useful. Door's locked! Baleful Utterance the lock! That paving stone looks like a pressure plate for a trap! Baleful Utterance the paving stone! That archer/fighter/whatever is tearing us to pieces! Baleful Utterance his quiver/beltbuckle/armor straps! (Did the quiver one myself with the first warlock our group had seen. Was. Hillarious. Glad our DM never puts magical quivers on anyone!)

[ThiagoMartell]

Actually, since you have access to Planar Handbook, Weapon Focus just might be worth it, depending on how your DM rules it.
OK, you know how you can choose 'ray' or 'touch attack' for Weapon Focus? There is a Planar Touchstone (oxyrynchus, I think) that gives you an extra attack at -5 with 'the weapon you chose for Weapon Focus' against flat-footed target. I'm not sure if it works RAW and I'm pretty sure it does not work RAI following Complete Arcane, but I can see a DM ruling it both ways.

[Zoltan]

Complete Arcane lays out the interaction between PBS and Eldritch Blast (it should get the +1 damage). Definately grab Baleful Utterance, it's rediculously useful. Door's locked! Baleful Utterance the lock! That paving stone looks like a pressure plate for a trap! Baleful Utterance the paving stone! That archer/fighter/whatever is tearing us to pieces! Baleful Utterance his quiver/beltbuckle/armor straps! (Did the quiver one myself with the first warlock our group had seen. Was. Hillarious. Glad our DM never puts magical quivers on anyone!)

It sounds like my DM is correct, unless I am missing some other rule.

From complete arcane book:

Point Blank Shot: You get a +1 bonus on attack rolls and
damage rolls with ranged spells that deal hit
point damage at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Spells that deal only ability damage,
bestow penalties on ability scores, or
deal energy drain gain a +1 bonus
on their attack rolls but
get no bonus on damage.

AND @ Lonely Tylenol..
You said: He's allowing Eldritch Glaive, but not the book it's in? Peculiar... But fortuitous.
Answer, He is not allowing glaivelock, or anything from the dragon books but the class for another player.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It sounds like my DM is correct, unless I am missing some other rule.

From complete arcane book:

Point Blank Shot: You get a +1 bonus on attack rolls and
damage rolls with ranged spells that deal hit
point damage at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Spells that deal only ability damage,
bestow penalties on ability scores, or
deal energy drain gain a +1 bonus
on their attack rolls but
get no bonus on damage.

It sure is a good thing that Eldritch Blast is none of those things!

Spells that deal only ability damage (such as Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy) deal damage to ability scores, but not hit point damage. Spells that deal only energy drain (such as Enervation) deal negative levels, but not hit point damage. Eldritch Blast deals hit point damage. Even when being changed by Hellrime Blast (which deals ability damage) or Utterdark Blast (which deals energy drain), Eldritch Blast will still benefit from the +1 damage of Point Blank Shot, because it still deals hit point damage.

Point Blank Shot is already a mediocre to bad feat unless used as a prerequisite for something great (and I can't really think of anything); if your DM feels like nerfing it even further, politely ask if you can change it, because at this point there's no real sense in having it at all.

AND @ Lonely Tylenol..
You said: He's allowing Eldritch Glaive, but not the book it's in? Peculiar... But fortuitous.
Answer, He is not allowing glaivelock, or anything from the dragon books but the class for another player.

I apologize. I thought the "it's weak and you'll die a lot" meant he had changed his mind, because he obviously isn't concerned with it breaking your game or anything.