IC Knee Deep Arena

[Zman]

Or get her out in the open and by herself. Or damn near anything, really. Maybe when she gets daring outlaw...

Int to damage will be huge, just two more levels of Swashbuckler.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yes, though it's only +4. And then I pick up swordsage and flanking becomes so much easier.

[Zman]

Yes, though it's only +4. And then I pick up swordsage and flanking becomes so much easier.

Only a +4!

[CoffeeIncluded]

Only a +4!

Look at all the pluses you guys have to damage!

[Zman]

Look at all the pluses you guys have to damage!

You could have them too with a descent Strengh score and a two handed weapon and power attack.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You could have them too with a descent Strengh score and a two handed weapon and power attack.

Nah, I think I'll go with what I have. It's okay, as long as I'm not flying solo.

[Zman]

Nah, I think I'll go with what I have. It's okay, as long as I'm not flying solo.

Damage bonuses can get a bit much.


Ie been thinking about a way to balance DND a bit. A fun Varient rule set. All of the inherent balance issues in DnD can be frustrating.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's mostly magic vs swords.

[Zman]

It's mostly magic vs swords.

No, it's much more than that.

Power vs Versatility

Power Scaling

Ease of abuse

[CoffeeIncluded]

Isn't a lot of that because magic so outclasses melee at higher levels?

[Zman]

Isn't a lot of that because magic so outclasses melee at higher levels?

And to a lesser extent low levels.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It just blows past everything else.

[Zman]

Here is a rough rundown.

24 Pointbuy

Wound/Vitality Points(Varient)

Recharge Magic(Varient: Makes Casters Better, Limits Spamming)
Limit Casters to the Highest level spell they could cast at 10th level, ie 5th for Wizards, Sorcers, Clerics, Druids, etc.(Limits Raw Power of Casters and much abuse.)
Higher levl spells could be achieved with Rituals if the caster is high enough level.

Classes only ever get their best 10 levels for Saves, BAB, HD, skills, basically count as a Gestalt character after lvl10.

Plus little balancing things to make such a Varient work. basically character never UMD up much more powerful than a lvl10 gestalt character and Casters have a ceiling to their power and have reasons to select other classes.

It's a work in progress.

[CoffeeIncluded]

So no more fun with 9th level spells?

[Zman]

So no more fun with 9th level spells?

Name 3 Nineth level spells and try and list all the ways they break the game? They simply do.

They'd potentially be possible do them with a complex enough ritual or enough additional spellcasters were used. Basically, that powerful of magic would be not usable in a combat situation, but with enough planning could be used especially as plot devices.

Or, at the least 7th,8th,9th level spells would be soley for Epic.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I guess. It still loses a lot of fun though.

[Zman]

I guess. It still loses a lot of fun though.

Think about that. It is only fun for the Casters. Your tune will change in 5 levels when Miriam can Raise th dead and Mithril can Teleport across th world, and Shiny can warp minds at a whim, etc and you are slightly better at what you already do.

Casters scale exponentially, and that has to stop somewhere. I believe 10th level is a good point. Casters are still throwing fireballs, teleporting, raising the dead, etc which seems to me like pretty powerful magic. Do thy really need to stop time and abuse the rules too?

And once casters get scaled down, so will Melee damage. DnD runs into an arms race and that isn't good for the game.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeah, but I'm playing a wizard next game so I'll get to join in on the fun too! Anyway, I should go to bed soon.

[Zman]

Yeah, but I'm playing a wizard next game so I'll get to join in on the fun too! Anyway, I should go to bed soon.

You mean abuse the rules, escalate power, and make whoever is playing the Melee guy/rogue feel useless and worthless....

Magic is horribly flawed as is and the whole power escalation of DnD is not a good thing.

Edit: Why do you want to play a wizard next game? Power? Versatility?

[CoffeeIncluded]

Because I really, really, really want to play Serrin Peakane.

[Zman]

And why does that require breaking the game with high level magic? Why can't that character concept be fulfilled with 5th level magic? I mean seriously? You will complain how weak Natalia is for a long time, but any proposed fix for a future game where you want to be the one breaking the game isn't ok.

I mean most of the standard Fantasy Wizard shtick can be fully fufilled by 3rd or 4th level magic. Its one of the reasons that the E6 variant is somewhat appealing. If you don't know what that is, look it up.

[Cavelcade]

I'd actually love to play E6 but have yet to get a chance.

[Zman]

I'd actually love to play E6 but have yet to get a chance.

Yeah, what I'm working on is kind of an E10, except that you get to level with additional class levels instead of just feat. The goal is for characters to end up more diverse and less shoehorned into a single role. I'm not a huge fan of Im the skill Monkey, I'm the heal it, I'm the frontline, I'm the arcane caster party composition. I like crossover, multiclassing, etc.

I think scale simply got out of hand with spells.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I was messing around a bit. But please don't remove high-leveled spells before I have a chance to play with them.

[Zman]

I was messing around a bit. But please don't remove high-leveled spells before I have a chance to play with them.

I thoroughly dislike high level spells. The are a bloat and escalation of ability which just doesn't balance well at all. And almost all of them are simply more broken versions of lesser spells.

The fact is, once characters start getting broken abilities, games end. Either the other players get fed up with it, or the DM does. Either way it tends to ruin play. Just look at any high level start game, or especially gestalt game.

I mean, I tried to play nice with a lvl 15 Gestalt and ended up with an AC in the 50s! And I wasn't even abusing high level spells.

The reason I, trying to craft a Varient that greatly slown progression at 10th level is that I where I feel the tipping point begins. Casters still have power, but are not so far beyond the others that they can't coexist. Once higher levels are reache, it's not the same game. It also can reduce the arms race and the 200+ damage per round arms races which makes CR meaningless.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I guess, but can we not make it the next game?

[Zman]

I guess, but can we not make it the next game?

That depends on who DMs. I don't think I will ever DM a game that isn't balanced somewhat.

[CoffeeIncluded]

What about this game? Aaaahhh, let's get to Hulburg!

[Zman]

What about this game? Aaaahhh, let's get to Hulburg!

I just don't let broken things fly. But it won't change the inherent problems to come. It's mainly becausenI don't think Achinca or Athedia will try to abuse any rules. Even then, you are already complaining how underpowered Ntalias is.

Anyway, enough in this thread.

And I'm waiting for IC before advancing into Hulburg.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay. I moved back to the OOC thread.