The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

[Troacctid]

We could need a new updated guide, but who knows if someone has the time for it. Gathering the infos & bugs is easy here done, but the formating and editing fr a new handbook is sill time consuming. Anyone has some time to spare?^^

Yeah yeah, I'm working on it. It's a big project and I'm a busy woman; it'll take a while.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Re: Hammer Doom: It's arguable about how well this would work by RAW, but I don't think it would work at any table. If you're lucky, it won't work; if you're unlucky, the DM will make all of your equipment take damage next time you get hit by an AoE effect. After all, your armor/weapon/spellbook/etc is in the effect, isn't it?

[Nebuul]

Re: Hammer Doom: It's arguable about how well this would work by RAW, but I don't think it would work at any table. If you're lucky, it won't work; if you're unlucky, the DM will make all of your equipment take damage next time you get hit by an AoE effect. After all, your armor/weapon/spellbook/etc is in the effect, isn't it?

There's nothing arguable about it. There are rules for when aoe affects items (when you roll 1 on your save), and it's perfectly legitimate to target attended items. They get their or their owner's save bonus, whichever is higher. If a DM ruled against this working, it would be a house rule, not RAW.

[Troacctid]

It definitely works, it's just not very impressive compared to whatever else you could be doing.

[Nebuul]

It definitely works, it's just not very impressive compared to whatever else you could be doing.

I was just thinking - what would happen if you targeted all their weapons with repelling blast. Would the weapons all be disarmed? If they hit a person in a line away from you, would that person take weapon damage? What are the rules for flying weapons?

[Morcleon]

I was just thinking - what would happen if you targeted all their weapons with repelling blast. Would the weapons all be disarmed? If they hit a person in a line away from you, would that person take weapon damage? What are the rules for flying weapons?

The weapon would take damage. Repelling blast only knocks back Medium or smaller creatures.

[Snowbluff]

Imho the guide is outdated and contains many bugs and misses many opportunities.
.

It's true, I need to work up o9n updating some materials.

[GreatWyrmGold]

There's nothing arguable about it. There are rules for when aoe affects items (when you roll 1 on your save), and it's perfectly legitimate to target attended items. They get their or their owner's save bonus, whichever is higher. If a DM ruled against this working, it would be a house rule, not RAW.

I've never had any equipment damaged by AoE attacks, even when rolling a 1. It's one of those rules nobody pays attention to.
Anyways, if you're bending the rules to say "But I'm technically allowed to target each of those items individually," the DM's not going to feel bad about digging out technicalities, like "affects whatever it catches in its area".

[Nebuul]

I've never had any equipment damaged by AoE attacks, even when rolling a 1. It's one of those rules nobody pays attention to.
Anyways, if you're bending the rules to say "But I'm technically allowed to target each of those items individually," the DM's not going to feel bad about digging out technicalities, like "affects whatever it catches in its area".

I really don't understand why you think this is bending the rules. But, you are free to play the game however you like it. I think it's fairly obvious from the fact that there is an essence devoted entirely to doing full damage to objects when warlocks can already shatter non-magical objects at-will that the class is intended to do stuff like this.

If my DM somehow took offense to me doing this completely legit maneuver and bent the rules to screw me over afterwards, especially at such a high level, I'd call him a jerk to his face.

[Morcleon]

I really don't understand why you think this is bending the rules. But, you are free to play the game however you like it. I think it's fairly obvious from the fact that there is an essence devoted entirely to doing full damage to objects when warlocks can already shatter non-magical objects at-will that the class is intended to do stuff like this.

If my DM somehow took offense to me doing this completely legit maneuver and bent the rules to screw me over afterwards, especially at such a high level, I'd call him a jerk to his face.

I mean, there's not really any rules bending here. It's just a gentleman's agreement to not target equipment for destruction by both DMs and players.

[Gruftzwerg]

regarding PRCs:)

Warshaper: would need some info on what interactions works and what not. (e.g. Eldritch Claws, Hellspawned Grace).

Enlightened Fist: while most abilities don't work with invocations this prc is still noteable. It's one of the few prc that warlock can qualify for and the sole that progresses arcane spellcasting (8/10) and unarmed strike dmg at the same time. This makes it almost a must have for any decent clawlock build. Imho there is lil reason to not take 10 lvls (unless you really need the lvl for something else important). Have a look at my signature build as example.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I really don't understand why you think this is bending the rules. But, you are free to play the game however you like it. I think it's fairly obvious from the fact that there is an essence devoted entirely to doing full damage to objects when warlocks can already shatter non-magical objects at-will that the class is intended to do stuff like this.

If my DM somehow took offense to me doing this completely legit maneuver and bent the rules to screw me over afterwards, especially at such a high level, I'd call him a jerk to his face.

It's 100% cool by RAW, but pretty clearly not RAI. RAI are pretty much definitely "This works like any AoE attack, except you can leave folks untargeted."
Anyways, if you pull off some rules-bending trick that gives you a big advantage, you'd best expect a similar trick being turned on you. Once players abuse a trick, it's fair game for the DM to do the same.

[Troacctid]

It's 100% cool by RAW, but pretty clearly not RAI. RAI are pretty much definitely "This works like any AoE attack, except you can leave folks untargeted."

If they wanted it to work that way, they would have made it work that way. They didn't. They made it targeted.

And there are many AoE effects that are also targeted, like slow and mass inflict. It's not an unusual thing.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If they wanted it to work that way, they would have made it work that way. They didn't. They made it targeted.

And there are many AoE effects that are also targeted, like slow and mass inflict. It's not an unusual thing.

You'll notice that those are targeted first, then it mentions that they all have to be close together, as opposed to getting the area first and then mentioning the creatures in it that are affected. You'll also notice that every single one of those targets a very small number of creatures.
This same argument works equally well against all RAI. It misses the point of the RAW/RAI division; if all of WotC's authors always wrote clearly and sensibly, we wouldn't talk about the differences between RAW and RAI in the first place.

[Troacctid]

Not really. Sometimes the text is ambiguous or self-contradictory. But this really isn't one of those times. It's pretty clear and straightforward what the invocation does.

[Nebuul]

This is an 8th-level, non-ranged, 20' radius spell equivalent. Do you really think it would be appropriately powerful if it did not have some kind of amazing characteristics that would make anyone want to cast it? If you couldn't pick targets, eldritch chain would be better in 99% of all cases.

There has to be a reward for the high-level ability to require the light-armor d6 hp caster to position himself so close to danger. That is the ability to target each and everything you want.

[Dagroth]

And Warlocks should be allowed to have some nice things...

[Troacctid]

To be fair, it's not unusual for Dark invocations not to be appropriately powerful. Caster's lament is basically useless, retributive invisibility is like an enervating shadow that's easier to see through and blows you up if it's dispelled, dark discorporation prevents you from taking actions for 24 hours, incarnum shroud gives you the same miss chance as a least invocation, binding blast is arguably worse than noxious blast, and steal summoning might come up once every 20 games if you're lucky.

[Dagroth]

To be fair, it's not unusual for Dark invocations not to be appropriately powerful. Caster's lament is basically useless, retributive invisibility is like an enervating shadow that's easier to see through and blows you up if it's dispelled, dark discorporation prevents you from taking actions for 24 hours, incarnum shroud gives you the same miss chance as a least invocation, binding blast is arguably worse than noxious blast, and steal summoning might come up once every 20 games if you're lucky.

Then they should be fixed. They should be equivalent to 6th level spells at least, given they're usable at-will.

[Deepbluediver]

To be fair, it's not unusual for Dark invocations not to be appropriately powerful. Caster's lament is basically useless, retributive invisibility is like an enervating shadow that's easier to see through and blows you up if it's dispelled, dark discorporation prevents you from taking actions for 24 hours, incarnum shroud gives you the same miss chance as a least invocation, binding blast is arguably worse than noxious blast, and steal summoning might come up once every 20 games if you're lucky.

Dark invocations are supposed to be equivalent to 6~7 levels spells, right?
And while I think that you could attribute some of this to poor design, in my experience almost anything that has ANY of it's values given as "unlimited", players will find a way to break the gameworld with it. It doesn't matter how inocuos an action might seem, if a player can do it with no check required (or hire level 1 Commoners to do it) there WILL BE repercussions somewhere down the line. So I can understand a bit of hesitancy when it comes to warlocks.

[Troacctid]

Dark invocations are supposed to be equivalent to 6~7 levels spells, right?
And while I think that you could attribute some of this to poor design, in my experience almost anything that has ANY of it's values given as "unlimited", players will find a way to break the gameworld with it. It doesn't matter how inocuos an action might seem, if a player can do it with no check required (or hire level 1 Commoners to do it) there WILL BE repercussions somewhere down the line. So I can understand a bit of hesitancy when it comes to warlocks.

Not all dark invocations are that bad. There's just a few that are really egregious.

[Deepbluediver]

Not all dark invocations are that bad. There's just a few that are really egregious.

Fair enough- I guess it's like with almost every other class that you've got some hits and some misses when it comes to designing mechanics.

[death390]

A note about The warlock magic items; the magic item rules state that the cost for an item with charges is X/5 meaning that if you boost the charges up to 5 you can technicaly remove the charge limitation on charge/day magic items. while i dont think you would want to un-charge items that have multi-charge use until you can at least get the 2nd version of it.

a great early game item is a unlimited bracers of the entangling blast. the standard price is only 2000 gold so *5/3 to make the unlimited version which is 3333 gold 3 silver 3(4) copper. that means that while you do lose half damage you can every turn entangle a foe AND deal a stacking (it is un-typed damage that doesn't have a no stacking clause) EB spell level damage over 1-3 rounds. heck get a single blast essence/shape of 2nd level spell and you deal 2/4/6 damage over the course of the blast, as long as you keep pace with your damage by getting a shape/ essence of appropriate level you won't lose out on damage.

unlimited gloves of eldritch admixture (type 1/2/3) costs 4166gold 6silver 7copper for extra 2D6 damage a round OF YOUR CHOICE ENERGY TYPE, oh hey look you added flaming and shocking to your energy blast or caustic and chilling. Type 2 add another 1D6 for 4166.67 gold above what you already paid. (basically adding a second constantly renewing charge). type 3 is another D6 for another 4166.67 gold, Type 3 total cost is about 12,500 gold or 4D6 choice energy damage type each shot AND since its a add on damage it would not be reduced by your unlimited bracers of untangling blast.

[Troacctid]

A note about The warlock magic items; the magic item rules state that the cost for an item with charges is X/5 meaning that if you boost the charges up to 5 you can technicaly remove the charge limitation on charge/day magic items.

That's not really how custom magic items work.

[Dagroth]

That's not really how custom magic items work.

Not meaning to come across as snarky... but how would you create/price out unlimited use versions of the items that currently have 3/day uses?

[Troacctid]

The rules instruct you to begin by comparing it to similar items. That's the first step, always. If you go straight to the table, you're glossing over a crucial part of the process.

So let's look at the Gloves of Eldritch Admixture. If it's at will, you're essentially getting an extra 2d6 damage on every blast. Is there another item that is similar to this? Yes. In fact it's very similar to the Greater Chasuble of Fell Power—and I would price it the same.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It's important to note that the last step is "get the DM to actually agree that your magic item is OK". Otherwise, just make a few rings of continuous true strike.

[skunk3]

Just a couple of questions, these might be really dumb, but...

1. In order to qualify for epic warlock feats, do I HAVE TO have 20 levels of warlock, or 20 EFFECTIVE levels? The reason why I am asking is because I am going along an Eldritch Disciple / Hellfire line and if I must have 20 total actual levels of warlock before I can even look at epic warlock feats, it's not worth my time. By the time I reach level 20 I will have either 16 or 17 effective levels of warlock, but only 3-4 ACTUAL warlock levels.

2. When it comes to retraining invocations - Can you retrain whatever you want when you hit a level that gives you another invocation? What I mean is that are you limited to retraining just one, or can you retrain any number of invocations you want?

3. When it comes to epic warlock feats, does owning rods of eldritch power that allow you to use shapes/essences count towards the prerequisites? The reason why I ask is because a lot of these epic warlock feats are very prohibitive otherwise and force players to not take certain invocations that are clearly better just to be able to have access to a nice epic feat.

4a. Does anyone else think that the Codex Advocare is too expensive? Only a handful of the least invocations are worth a crap, and most warlocks will take the ones that seem the best either from the start, or eventually retrain them into the better ones as they level up. 20k GP for a least invocation seems steep to me, even if they are at-will / 24 hr. abilities.
4b. Do Codexes for higher-level invocations exist? If so, how much would they / should they cost? For my feats, I am taking a lot of "extra invocation" feats and I still feel like I'm lacking somewhat.

5. I understand why Hideous Blow sucks, but could someone explain to me why Eldritch Glaive is supposedly very nice? I get that it has reach and it counts as a touch attack and you can use iteratives, but aside from that, is there anything great about it? (I am planning on being mostly ranged / crowd control.) It seems like this invocation would only be good if you plan on going pure Warlock all the way to 20 because with my planned character progression I am not sure if I am going to ever even get a single iterative, as Eldritch Disciple doesn't add much BAB. (Is there anything from my Cleric spells that can help here?)

6a. Thoughts on Fell Flight? I have it for now and while it is nice to be able to fly all day without spending money on an item, the flight speed is not that great. Would it make more sense to buy a flight item and retrain this invocation to something else?
6b. If I buy magic items that increase my land speed, would that also increase my flight speed?

7. Is it possible to pay extra for a rod of eldritch power that has unlimited uses rather than 5x/day?

8. How does advancing Hellfire damage work with tricks like taking levels in a class that advance other classes? If you already have 3 levels in HFW, how can you advance it beyond that? To me that seems like it shouldn't be possible, and even if it technically does work by some interpretation cheese, it smells. To me, by RAI, it was clearly intended that HFW was supposed to have a max of only 3 total levels, and if you are third level, you cannot go any further. The same applies to any PrC that you are of maxed levels. I'd say it should work just fine for any other classes which do not have a max amount of levels.

9. I am currently Warlock 3 / Cleric 3 / Eldritch Disciple 4. I plan on taking ED up to 10 levels. That would put me at level 16. If then I wanted to take another level of Warlock for deceive item, how exactly would it work? What would I get by taking that level, since ED already advances my invocations known and EB damage. Would I get the level-dependent benefit of the new Warlock level and then the EB damage and invocation progression of a 17th-level Warlock, or what? I just don't understand how advancing a base class works when I will already have a bunch of 'effective' levels from a PrC.

[Snowbluff]

Some I can answer quickly.

1: epic warlock feats only require certain invocations, and an epic level of spellcraft.

3: hypothetically yes. However taking slightly off color invactions is worth the epic feat.

4a: yes it’s overpriced as far as I can tell. Least invocations are rather weak.

4b: not that I’m aware of.

5: iterative attack’s, touch attacks, and reach. It’s just better.

Eldritch disciple means you’re a cleric. You can cast Divine Power and even use DMM persist on it to have full bab all day.

6a: fell fright is good

6b: iirc, fell flight is a set speed. If you have soemthing that increase speed generically, or flight speed, that would increase it.

8: the wording says each level of HFW gets 2d6 hellfire Blast. If you’re class gives more levels to it, each level gives 2d6 more.

9: Eldritch disciple onlygives caster level(which progress EB) and invocation progression. All other class features are not progressed.

[Morcleon]

5. I understand why Hideous Blow sucks, but could someone explain to me why Eldritch Glaive is supposedly very nice? I get that it has reach and it counts as a touch attack and you can use iteratives, but aside from that, is there anything great about it? (I am planning on being mostly ranged / crowd control.) It seems like this invocation would only be good if you plan on going pure Warlock all the way to 20 because with my planned character progression I am not sure if I am going to ever even get a single iterative, as Eldritch Disciple doesn't add much BAB. (Is there anything from my Cleric spells that can help here?)

BAB stacks with itself, so by level 20, you will always have at least one iterative, and since you're going Eldritch Disciple and Cleric, you will probably have a total of 3 attacks on a full attack.