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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Add Synad (CPsi) to races. Can get Rapidstrike like Elans, qualify for psionic feats without Wild Talent, and no Cha penalty.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Add Synad (CPsi) to races. Can get Rapidstrike like Elans, qualify for psionic feats without Wild Talent, and no Cha penalty.
    Thanks, added.

    @LonelyTylenol Dayyyyuuuum

    Also, I am the polar opposite of Thiago when it comes to Strongheart Vest.

    I also in the opposite in looks. (Short blonde hair, scantily clad in white versus long black hair, robed in black.)
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-25 at 03:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    I should probably spoiler this as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    If I may (as the person whose ratings are being called into question):

    I had to be convinced that Summon Swarm was even good at level 1. Relative to Eldritch Blast, the range is terrible, the duration is prohibitive, and the damage never scales or improves of its own accord. The only thing it has over Eldritch Blast in the first two levels is the lack of a need for an attack roll, but by about level 4 or 5, your ranged attack bonus has scaled to the point where you almost never miss touch attacks anyway. And unlike Summon Swarm, you aren't wasting one of your precious twelve invocations on Eldritch Blast.
    Well you also should take into account swarm is your only form of aoe until 6, idk how much you value that over jut being able to hit one of the 8 mooks charging you, but it seems like a great way to cut down on enemy numbers imo. and you cant waste the invocation slot if you didn't plan on switching out either of the other two anyway.

    Comparing a Mortalbane-enhanced Summon Swarm to a vanilla Eldritch Blast is a laughable example, because a Mortalbane-enhanced Summon Swarm pales in comparison to a Mortalbane-enhanced Eldritch Blast (which is what you get when you put the two on equal footing), only the Eldritch Blast continues to scale. None of the situations you just described happen with any regularity or reliability in your bog-standard combat scenario, where you concentrate on a swarm and it does its bidding persistently and for the whole combat against multiple targets at a time--rather, the best, safest use of Summon Swarm is to not concentrate on it, which nets you the free no-roll attack, plus the opportunity to do it again (with manual repositioning) next turn. Gambling on a low-level, low-reward attack form that doesn't scale with not only one of your twelve invocations, but one of your seven feats seems like a serious folly.
    The reason I compared it that way is because halfway into your first encounter of the day all of your mortalbanes will be gone if your putting it on EB (only 5 uses) while one use on swarm lasts most of, if not all of, each battle, meaning in a standard adventuring day it should always be a mortalbane swarm, while only occasionally a mortalbane eb.

    Its also still a decent use of a feat slot because you can apply it to chilling tentacles at later levels, keep in mind mortalbane works on each of your spell like abilities 5 times every day, so you don't pick mortalbane (summon swarm) you pick mortalbane and then apply it to any of your abilities whenever.

    The cone's range is half that of your standard Eldritch Blast, putting you in much greater danger than Eldritch Chain and weakening the odds of hitting a wide spread of enemies; Area of Effect spells into clusters always run the risk of affecting allies; and succeeding a ranged touch attack will always be easier than forcing your opponents to succeed a Reflex save. In fact, by the time you've picked up Eldritch Chain (it won't be your first lesser invocation, by any stretch of the imagination), you should be hitting nearly all the time on a 2 or better, even if you dumped DEX initially (unless your DM has a weak spot for the Scintillating Scales spell, and none do). Your enemies' saves, by contrast, have been scaling with Hit Dice since level 1.
    unless extremely optimized with no room for anything not damage related to his EB, a blasterlock is not contributing to a battle through damage. Lets face it 1d6 every other level once to a single target is not a lot of damage, Your banking on anything you have with a save and a decent effect to be going off if you went blaster lock and my enemies making the reflex save and taking 5 damage instead of 10 is not my biggest concern (although doing 5 damage to 4 people is more then doing 10 damage to 1)

    Cone has a few VERY niche situations where it can truly outshine Chain (large quantities of enemies grouped together with low DEX/Reflex saves and high touch ACs), but a primary attack form it is not. In fact, it actively makes your attack weaker than the bog-standard Eldritch Blast by default, and only situationally breaks even (and even more situationally improves upon it). Therefore, red. Chain just adds extra targets to your standard blast (and therefore inherently improves upon the standard model).
    going from unnoticed damage to barely there damage doesn't decide fights, clearing a path for your death dealers to the bbeg does decide fights. I think where we find disagreement here is you think two enemies and consider that 1/4th of an encounter, where if I'm facing only 4 things in an encounter my group has action economied (its a verb now ) all over there faces and waltzed away. Just like you should never pit 5 adventurers vs a single boss, pitting them vs a number lesser then them is usually just a floor mopping.

    Encounters in my games tend to have 1-2 bruiser big guys and anywhere from 10-15 little guys, clearing half the little guys in a turn or two is a big boon in my group because they simply get in the way.

    I just want to reiterate: Spending a feat improving an invocation that you WILL be trading out at level 6 probably isn't a good idea, unless it's a 5-level game. (Reminder: Mortalbane requires you select a spell-like ability to improve.)
    you may want to read the feat again

    You're probably not picking up any lesser blast shapes until 10 or later anyway, because the rest of the lesser invocations are just flat-out unbeatable. If you're consistently hitting 9 or more with your 30-ft. cone, you aren't playing Dungeons & Dragons; you're bowling.
    If your consistently fighting two creatures that together make your cr+1-2 I'd imagine they have amazing initiative the ability to fly and a lot of SR every single time, or ones already dead by round one and the other needs to straight out kill three of you not to die next round. two trolls do not make for a half difficult encounter for a group of level 4 adventurers. However 9 goblins, two orcs and a troll is hard to deal with due to casters and archers always being threatened (obviously before the casters can fly of course) and the fighter has no time to save him with a troll in front of him (at least he hopes the troll went after him)


    Since Eldritch Chain increases the number of targets you can hit and does not otherwise modify the attack form, it is a flat-out improvement over Eldritch Blast (which makes it worth getting if being a ranged attacker is your focus, for whatever reason). By contrast, Eldritch Cone does all of the above five things worse than Eldritch Blast, not to mention Eldritch Chain, which makes it by default worse than simply not taking a blast shape at all.
    I was under the impression they were graded based on their effects to an encounter, not how much they improve what you can already do. going from 1 damage a round vs a dragon to 5 is 5x improvement, but your still not changing the battle meaningfully. Hitting a single extra target is just as much a flat out improvement as making someone shaken with frightful blast yet one is blue and the other black. Cone on the other hand isn't upgrading your EB it is giving you an aoe version, think orb of fire vs fireball instead of orb of fire vs orb of fire + chain spell (not the best comparison since i believe chain spell targets far more targets)

    If you don't believe me, think about the situational effectiveness of each, and what you need in order to make each invocation better than the standard Eldritch Blast.

    Eldritch Chain: More than one target.
    Eldritch Cone: More than one target, all targets situated closely together, all targets have poor Reflex saves, all targets incapable of using close-range fighting to their advantage, all allies given a wide berth...
    Actually when i think of situations my only thought is "what does more total damage 4d6 to two targets or 2d6-4d6 between 3-4 targets" if there are only two targets I might forget to use chain anyway because battles almost over, if there are more I'm getting more saves and more total damage out of cone. I'm also not one whose afraid to scratch the party fighter if i for some reason am not just flying directly over him and the rest of my allies are behind me.

    [reiteration omitted]

    EDIT: It should be noted that you can buy a Rod of Eldritch Power containing either Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Cone (among others), netting you five uses per day of either, so if you consider either of them worth your while but not your invocation slot, the answer is only 16,000gp away for chain (36,000 for cone). I know which one I'd be more likely to get five daily uses out of, however.
    True but that's true of all the blast shapes really, hardly affects the ranking.

    EDIT II: Also note that Chain is a lesser invocation, while Cone is a greater. By the time you have to choose between the two, Chain is already hitting three targets... And you can't even choose Cone until such invocations as Chilling Tentacles become available to you.
    That is a point for chain but Imo that just makes them both worth it under certain circumstances.
    Last edited by SargesPrivates; 2012-12-27 at 02:33 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Roles section is still missing. Also, add Whisper Gnome. Small Races do extremely well with Warlock. Ranged Touch attack +Small size bonus -Reduced speed(Because of Fell Flight) +AC Bonus = Awesome.

    As always, very much thanks for your work.
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    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Could you use some spoilers to make the whole thing easier to navigate?

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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    Roles section is still missing. Also, add Whisper Gnome. Small Races do extremely well with Warlock. Ranged Touch attack +Small size bonus -Reduced speed(Because of Fell Flight) +AC Bonus = Awesome.

    As always, very much thanks for your work.
    Your welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephit View Post
    Could you use some spoilers to make the whole thing easier to navigate?

    I'll get one both of these. It's a good idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Apologies for the length. I tend towards it.

    Spoilered per request.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SargesPrivates View Post
    Well you also should take into account swarm is your only form of aoe until 6, idk how much you value that over jut being able to hit one of the 8 mooks charging you, but it seems like a great way to cut down on enemy numbers imo. and you cant waste the invocation slot if you didn't plan on switching out either of the other two anyway.
    Sure you can! You can spend your first five levels doing two to three unique, distinct things that allow you to contribute to a variety of different situations with your invocations... Or you could spend your first five levels supplementing your fairly cookie-cutter attack form with another, almost identical attack form (which replaces the original action). Sounds like a waste of an invocation slot to me. If I had the choice between Summon Swarm and Baleful Utterance in the first few levels, for example, I'd pick the latter, because it gives me options that I didn't already have on a much grander scale.

    The reason I compared it that way is because halfway into your first encounter of the day all of your mortalbanes will be gone if your putting it on EB (only 5 uses) while one use on swarm lasts most of, if not all of, each battle, meaning in a standard adventuring day it should always be a mortalbane swarm, while only occasionally a mortalbane eb.
    That's assuming you're concentrating on your summoned swarm, the swarm is doing precisely what you want it to (reminder: this isn't Summon Monster we're talking about), and your continued concentration occurs without incident.

    I'll hand it to you that Mortalbane does improve Summon Swarm. It can potentially improve Summon Swarm much more than it can improve Eldritch Blast (and will have a difficult time doing outright worse), but its lack of scaling and the fact that it replaces your primary attack form with an almost identical attack form still make it mediocre. Even a combat-focused Warlock trades it out at 6, whereas certain other invocations (such as Eldritch Glaive and Baleful Utterance) never go stale--and this is exactly what Summon Swarm has to contend with: even when it's good, there is still much better to be had, and that is the very definition of mediocre.

    unless extremely optimized with no room for anything not damage related to his EB, a blasterlock is not contributing to a battle through damage. Lets face it 1d6 every other level once to a single target is not a lot of damage, Your banking on anything you have with a save and a decent effect to be going off if you went blaster lock and my enemies making the reflex save and taking 5 damage instead of 10 is not my biggest concern (although doing 5 damage to 4 people is more then doing 10 damage to 1)
    Offering a save <<<<<<< not offering a save. This is a universal truth. Attack-roll, no-save spells and spell-likes are always going to be better, because it is much easier to ensure an attack roll hits than a save fails.

    going from unnoticed damage to barely there damage doesn't decide fights, clearing a path for your death dealers to the bbeg does decide fights. I think where we find disagreement here is you think two enemies and consider that 1/4th of an encounter, where if I'm facing only 4 things in an encounter my group has action economied (its a verb now ) all over there faces and waltzed away. Just like you should never pit 5 adventurers vs a single boss, pitting them vs a number lesser then them is usually just a floor mopping.

    Encounters in my games tend to have 1-2 bruiser big guys and anywhere from 10-15 little guys, clearing half the little guys in a turn or two is a big boon in my group because they simply get in the way.
    I DM a party of 10. This is all elementary to me: if I tried to challenge my party with "only 4 things", those 4 things would die before half the party acted. If either of the Warblades were high in initiative order, sooner than that.

    I also run an E6 game, where fatality is both possible and final, and every single one of my players would agree with me on this principle, in a low-level game or a high-level one: hitting two things swinging at you and zero things swinging at the things swinging at you is always better than hitting ten things swinging at you and one thing swinging at the things swinging at you, because the things swinging at you have an average life expectancy of one encounter, two if they're lucky, but the things swinging at the things swinging at you are expected to live the entire campaign, and it only takes one slip-up to screw that up (and you don't want to be the engineer of that slip-up).

    If that's not enough for you, remember that Evasion is a thing. A fairly easy to acquire thing among humanoids, even. Petty thieves laugh at the mighty Eldritch Cone a full nine levels before you can even get it.

    If your consistently fighting two creatures that together make your cr+1-2 I'd imagine they have amazing initiative the ability to fly and a lot of SR every single time, or ones already dead by round one and the other needs to straight out kill three of you not to die next round. two trolls do not make for a half difficult encounter for a group of level 4 adventurers. However 9 goblins, two orcs and a troll is hard to deal with due to casters and archers always being threatened (obviously before the casters can fly of course) and the fighter has no time to save him with a troll in front of him (at least he hopes the troll went after him)
    Against two trolls, or a troll and nine goblins, the principle is always the same: exercise the maximum possible amount of control over the encounter and produce the minimum amount of collateral damage. As an attack form, the amount of damage Eldritch Chain produces is always zero, which cannot be said of the cone (without careful positioning, which can even put you in a precarious position, which makes the collateral damage "you").

    Similarly, you can decide precisely what you are attacking. To use your own example: in the combat involving nine goblins, two orcs and a troll, the nine goblins (and possibly even the two orcs, depending on whether or not they have class levels) are mere busywork; in your own words, "they simply get in the way". They are meant to pad the encounter and rob the party of their action economy advantage. The troll and the two orcs are going to be the first in order of priority in your typical situation, so you want to make sure that you hit them first--really, the goblins' pitiful to-hit, damage, and survivability make them not worth the time anyway--and, with Eldritch Chain, you can make sure you hit all of the targets you want to hit, instead of the ones conveniently grouped together (do I want to hit the two orcs flanking the archer, or the troll battering the fighter?), which is what Eldritch Cone limits you to. So you hit five guys! That's great! Unfortunately, only one of them mattered.

    Of course, the standard order of priority ("big guy" -> semi-"big guy"s -> "busywork") isn't how every encounter is solved: many are contextual. To use the above example, three "busywork" minions (goblins or some other large quantity of badder mooks) are surrounding the spellcaster, two semi-"big"s are flanking the archer (or some tactical equivalent), and one "big" is wailing on the fighter (replace "figher" with "spellcaster" and vice-versa where appropriate). The character facing the "big" is basically free to help as soon as the "big" is incapacitated, and only one of the two semi-"big"s needs to be incapacitated to turn the favor in that fight. You could throw a cone at any one of the three (maybe even two with clever positioning), but you don't really have complete control of which due the prohibitive range, and you are almost certainly going to get one of your friends with whatever game-changing debuff you intend to lay down as a Warlock (read: collateral damage). Eldritch Chain allows you to choose precisely which targets are most necessary to incapacitate first. You aren't always going to hit as many as you might with Eldritch Cone (although due to the weak range and limited scope of cone, you totally might, even against large groups, if they're spread out), but the ones you're going to hit are all going to be the ones that matter most (and most importantly, you're never going to hit an ally--especially when you're laying down critical debuffs).

    I was under the impression they were graded based on their effects to an encounter, not how much they improve what you can already do. going from 1 damage a round vs a dragon to 5 is 5x improvement, but your still not changing the battle meaningfully. Hitting a single extra target is just as much a flat out improvement as making someone shaken with frightful blast yet one is blue and the other black. Cone on the other hand isn't upgrading your EB it is giving you an aoe version, think orb of fire vs fireball instead of orb of fire vs orb of fire + chain spell (not the best comparison since i believe chain spell targets far more targets)
    They are graded on their relative value vs. other invocations of the same invocation level. In other words, they're graded on the mileage you would get out of each invocation if you were to take that invocation over something else. Hitting a single extra target (or two, or three, or four, or five; it really depends on the level you're using it) is most definitely one of the better things you can do with your lesser invocation, which is really saying something, because there are no shortage of great lesser invocations: this is due largely in part to the fact that it is a straight-up force multiplier, which is a big deal when you consider all of the things you can do with force multipliers such as that one: more importantly than that, however, is that it is precise in its execution. It compares quite favorably against almost every other invocation of that level (lesser), and is worth taking in almost every case, because it has a high relative worth, and is almost always useful in combat (again, the only time it isn't worth having in a combat is when you're fighting a solitary enemy).

    As a greater invocation, Eldritch Cone isn't expected to compare with Eldritch Chain--it's expected to be greater than Eldritch Chain, not only offering you something different from the aforementioned, but better than it. Unfortunately, Eldritch Cone doesn't even compare favorably against vanilla Eldritch Blast, relying on a much more situational usefulness than that which is required to get mileage out of Eldritch Chain. "Worse by default" is a bad starting point for something that is only situationally useful to begin with, even if it does come with a convenient off switch. Then, for one of the three invocation slots that it is competing for, it is matched up against two of the best debuffs to layer atop an Eldritch Blast, as well as Chilling Tentacles and Devil's Whispers, the pičce de résistance of the Warlock's battlefield control and social arsenals, respectively. Even when you take these out of the equation, Eldritch Cone still competes unfavorably against Nightmares Made Real and quite a few others. At the level you get Eldritch Cone, for what it offers, it doesn't make the top three even if you take the first top three out entirely... And probably not even after you take the second top three out.

    The opportunity cost is the greatest thing considered here: I consider Eldritch Blast superior to Eldritch Cone in a wide variety of situations due in large part to the extra range and the greater degree of control I get to exercise over who gets hit when, which is all fine and dandy except Eldritch Cone costs a greater invocation to take. You may also have to take Eldritch Cone over one of the best essences in the game as a result of the fact that they share the same grade of invocation (something that is not true of chain).

    Actually when i think of situations my only thought is "what does more total damage 4d6 to two targets or 2d6-4d6 between 3-4 targets" if there are only two targets I might forget to use chain anyway because battles almost over, if there are more I'm getting more saves and more total damage out of cone. I'm also not one whose afraid to scratch the party fighter if i for some reason am not just flying directly over him and the rest of my allies are behind me.

    [reiteration omitted]
    Are you talking about damage or debuffs here? Most of your arguments are centered around the idea that "your damage doesn't matter, the debuffs are what are really important", but when you're talking about the collateral damage done to the fighter, you seem to be conveniently ignoring the debuffs. Yes, this does make a world of difference.

    If you don't mind, I'd like to share an anecdote with you:

    A couple of weeks ago, my party was exploring a labyrinth set deep underground in a tomb, with teleportation shenanigans and various and sundry traps and kill-rooms. Deciding that their best bets were to split up and increase their odds of finding the way out quickly, the Scout walked through a door alone--and into a room of three Wights, who, being situated in a miniature kill room, got the jump on him, hitting him twice in the surprise round (once a critical hit) and a third time in the first round of initiative (which they won), knocking him out. In the second round, one took a bite out of him while he was on the ground, knocking him from -2 to -9 (rolling a 1 on damage--lucky him), and requiring the party basically kill their way to him to stabilize him that round.

    You may think all that is quite irrelevant to the scenarios we've been discussing thus far (it is), but I told you that so I could tell you this:

    That scout had been with the party since day 1, for an entire year of gaming with that group, during which they had cleared hundreds of encounters of all natures, better or worse than the situation they were in there. It only took one misstep to undo all of that and bring his character to the brink of death.

    Don't be that misstep.

    That is a point for chain but Imo that just makes them both worth it under certain circumstances.
    Well, yes, but Eldritch Doom is also worth it under certain circumstances. That doesn't mean I consider it worthy of one of my precious few invocation slots.
    Last edited by Lonely Tylenol; 2012-12-26 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Formatting issues.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Sorry, Tylenol, but could you spoiler your arguments? I appreciate you explaining this, but I want the pages to be easily read like the handbook.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    @Cone v Chain: Why would you spend an invocation slot on either? Both are rather situational and, unless you know that you'll be facing a specific subset grouping of enemies a lot of the time (if you know your DM, or you know the theme, for example) then just pick up a rod of eldritch power for the one you want. Save your invocation slots for things you can't just throw money at to get.
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcleon View Post
    @Cone v Chain: Why would you spend an invocation slot on either? Both are rather situational and, unless you know that you'll be facing a specific subset grouping of enemies a lot of the time (if you know your DM, or you know the theme, for example) then just pick up a rod of eldritch power for the one you want. Save your invocation slots for things you can't just throw money at to get.

    Well, the money is better spent on scrolls of Gate and Simulacrum/Ice Assassin.

    Not every likes having to spend money on things like that, and it's not always an option. Class Features are more reliable.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-26 at 12:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    It should be noted that the Sudden [Metamagic] Feats are also applicable to Invocations (including Eldritch Blast, obviously). They're not, clearly, as good as the [Metamagic] Spell-Like Ability Feats in the long run, but if you're only playing a low-level game (e.g. in an E6 environment), then they can provide a little boost that would otherwise be unavailable (bearing in mind that Blast Essences and Blast Shapes increase the CL of your Blast...so a Chain Blast, for example, cannot be used Maximised until you are level 10? 12? I forget and am away from books, but it's something up there). In addition, you do not have to specify the Invocation a Sudden [Metamagic] Feat applies to, potentially giving you a little more flexibility. Alternatively, they can be used to apply metamagic to your Invocations at low levels, then be re-trained out for their 3/day counterpart when you get to a sufficiently high level.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post

    Well, the money is better spent on scrolls of Gate and Simulacrum/Ice Assassin.

    Not every likes having to spend money on things like that, and it's not always an option. Class Features are more reliable.
    Availability of items is also more DM-dependent than invocation availability, in my experience. Certainly it may be worth noting that the item is probably a better choice when available, but the invocations are still good enough to warrant a positive mark in the guide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Availability of items is also more DM-dependent than invocation availability, in my experience. Certainly it may be worth noting that the item is probably a better choice when available, but the invocations are still good enough to warrant a positive mark in the guide.
    The rod is already listed in the item section.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
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    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    The rod is already listed in the item section.
    Did I say otherwise?
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Yeah, invocations are less subject to DM fiat than WBL.

    Still, chain and cone are both somewhat situational in their use, depending on the types and numbers of encounters faced. I generally prefer cone, simply because it's an AoE, and the only decent blast shape that does so.
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Sorry, Tylenol, but could you spoiler your arguments? I appreciate you explaining this, but I want the pages to be easily read like the handbook.
    :\

    ...Spoilered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcleon View Post
    @Cone v Chain: Why would you spend an invocation slot on either? Both are rather situational and, unless you know that you'll be facing a specific subset grouping of enemies a lot of the time (if you know your DM, or you know the theme, for example) then just pick up a rod of eldritch power for the one you want. Save your invocation slots for things you can't just throw money at to get.
    As I've mentioned before (the first post on this discussion here, and in the previous thread), you can do just that. Chain is probably going to see common enough use (in a combat-heavy adventuring day, at the least; don't expect it to win you any favors in a social encounter), in my opinion, that a single rod might not cut it, and relative to the rest of the lesser invocations is still a solid pick if you'd rather spend a slot on it (or if that's your only option, as mentioned above) and it suits the build.
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    I'll take a gander at the Sudden MM feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    :\

    ...Spoilered.
    Thank you!

    About the Shapes, I agree with Tylenol. They are in the item section, so people know where to find them and that they are an option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    :\

    ...Spoilered.



    As I've mentioned before (the first post on this discussion here, and in the previous thread), you can do just that. Chain is probably going to see common enough use (in a combat-heavy adventuring day, at the least; don't expect it to win you any favors in a social encounter), in my opinion, that a single rod might not cut it, and relative to the rest of the lesser invocations is still a solid pick if you'd rather spend a slot on it (or if that's your only option, as mentioned above) and it suits the build.
    Ah, missed that.

    Perhaps there should be a class skills section?

    And add the Enveloping Pit to the items. It's like a portable hole, but much larger, and much cheaper. It also requires a UMD DC 30 to use if you're not LN, LE or NE. But UMD comes easily enough for a warlock.

    And a section for the epic warlock feats?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morcleon View Post
    Ah, missed that.

    Perhaps there should be a class skills section?

    And add the Enveloping Pit to the items. It's like a portable hole, but much larger, and much cheaper. It also requires a UMD DC 30 to use if you're not LN, LE or NE. But UMD comes easily enough for a warlock.

    And a section for the epic warlock feats?
    If the Pit was uniquely valuable to the Warlock, I would mention it. That's an item handbook's entry, not a warlock handbook entry. unless portable hole made it in as well... somehow. That's the problem with secondhand orphans. You don't know what has been in them.
    Argh, I'll get on it. Been busy working on my own build for a local Test of Spite type deal. I've been through several builds, but I am either unhappy with it, or it just isn't working/banned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
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    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    If the Pit was uniquely valuable to the Warlock, I would mention it. That's an item handbook's entry, not a warlock handbook entry. unless portable hole made it in as well... somehow. That's the problem with secondhand orphans. You don't know what has been in them.
    Argh, I'll get on it. Been busy working on my own build for a local Test of Spite type deal. I've been through several builds, but I am either unhappy with it, or it just isn't working/banned.
    The Cyran Gliding Boots are in there too... >.> That... could be taken so many different ways... O.O
    Yay, epic stuff! Shadowmaster > everything else.
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Originally when I saw this handbook, I was not sure what I should do. I had a number of objections to it, but I felt hesitant to bring them up, as I only found it after significant time had passed. However, with the revival of this thread, and the promise of updates for it, I feel this is a good time to bring up my thoughts on it.

    On the Emphasis of Clawlock:
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    First, a recurring difficulty I have with this handbook is its continued emphasis on the Eldritch Claw warlock. Now, to be clear, I have no problem with that flavor of warlock. It is a quite viable and useful option- that's not my difficulty here. What I object to is rather how materials really suitable only to the Eldritch Claw warlock are frequently and almost consistently marked as good options. For example, at least three of the races are really mentioned only for their ability to get Rapidstrike. For a non-claw warlock, the idea that the Elan or Synad are choices equal to Human or Halfling is... inaccurate, I'd say. You see similar things in the feat section, from things like Beast Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike.
    I think I'd strongly suggest listing such things under their non-Clawlock rating, but then mention their rating in regards to clawlock in the description. If that doesn't sit right, it could at least say "this drops to X if you are not making a Clawlock" in the description. I see some attempt at that, but I think it needs to be much more explicit. Use the Invocation section as an example, I'd say. The difference in power for items in different builds was handled much better there.

    Races
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    Changelings. I really don't see how a Changeling is a purple option for warlocks. I love their ability, I find them to be a really entertaining and cool race, and I do think they're a little underestimated, but I don't see them outdoing human and halfling for the vast majority of builds. The only significant merit I'm aware that they possess is the one mentioned in the guide- the ability to qualify for and potentially use Warshaper- but I dispute that this is even an amazing ability for a clawlock. As a one level dip, with no limitations put on morphic weapons it might be passable... but I feel incredibly hesitant to say that makes Changeling a purple option even for the clawlock. At best they should be blue. I'd probably put them at black.

    I'd further make a note about Pixie in there. It's a relatively common build suggestion- constantly invisible, flying warlocks are rather amusing, though the LA cost is high.

    In addition, while Charisma is not necessary for a good Warlock, there are Warlock builds that can benefit from higher Charisma. This in mind, it isn't it just a little odd how races Charisma penalties get more spotlight than races with Charisma bonuses? Lesser Aasimar and Spellscale (possibly Star Elves) should at least get a mention, I feel. They might not be the best options, but they're options that bear noting, I think. Also Hellbred, but that was mentioned already.

    Feats
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    First, Ability Focus needs to get mentioned. It is easy to get, and is a pretty fair selection at early levels, particularly for warlocks who go towards the debuff route. I know this was mentioned before, but it bears repeating.

    Second, Infernal Adept is not blue. It is really not blue at all. Just in case it's been missed, you can only pick an invocation that is two grades lower than your highest grade. The one grade lower clause of Extra Invocation is hard enough. Two grades lower is just a slap in the face. There is only one invocation on the dragonfire adept list that might, might be worth picking this feat up for, but I'm honestly not sure Humanoid Shape is so powerful that it is worth your feat at level 18.

    I would also make a note on Supernatural Transformation. The designer of the class says he doubts it is broken to allow it (though he errs on the side of caution, a position I can respect), and in my experience, it hasn't really been bad either. I've also had a number of DMs allow it. I think warning that it might not be allowed is wise, but if it is allowed, it'd be nice to have a rating that reflected its worth. I'd imagine it is blue or purple, at a thought. The power is not overwhelming, but it is quite useful and you can get it very early on, which is nice.

    Extra Invocation is at least blue. A warlock really needs all the invocations they can get, and in truth, while they don't have a great many feat slots, there also isn't a great deal of options for those feat slots. I'd say Extra Invocation is one of the better choices. For something like a clawlock, where you're trying to focus on damage it might not be as necessary, admittedly, and you'd have fewer slots for it. Still, I'll gladly take the ability to see invisible creatures, add my Cha to a save, or get a constant Entropic Warding over a feat like Improved Natural Attack or Able Learner (which are rated at the same level as Extra Invocation, currently). And those are just the options at level 6, leaving alone the lesser and greater invocations you might take with it later.

    Martial Study could stand to get mentioned. The maneuver Sudden Leap comes up several times, but a feat for getting it isn't? A little odd, I'd say. Besides, there are probably other things that it can be used for with the various melee builds. It may not be optimal compared to a martial adept dip, admittedly (since you'll need to take it more than once to get Sudden Leap). In the same line, I might make note of Travel Devotion- if not in the feat section, at least under Cleric dip. It's something to note for a warlock focused on Eldritch Glaive.

    Invocations
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    I want to object first to Eldritch Spear. I really don't believe it's a blue option. The ability to fire off an eldritch blast from a bit longer of a range is not comparable to See the Unseen, Entropic Warding, or Spiderwalk. I do see how it can be useful, but I think it is more black than blue.

    I also believe The Dead Walk is being overrated here. I do think it is quite cool, but if you just want it to fly or to have a few other abilities permanently, you can really make do with scrolls of animate dead, which are actually pretty cheap. It's definitely not a substitute for Fell Flight given that you need to get the onyx and corpse of an appropriate creature and further hope that they don't die (and for the latter, you'll need to constantly upgrade them, thus spending even more money). Skeletons and zombies aren't particularly amazing minions- the ability to create them temporarily without onyx is nice enough, but I'm not sure it truly merits purple. Props to use of it via Chameleon though- that's a pretty clever strategy, and I definitely get behind that.

    Flee the Scene- the range is terrible, even at high levels it does not actually allow you to reliably outpace an enemy who wants to catch you (due to how run works, or even anyone with a decent speed and double movement). It also, like dimension door, does not allow you to take any actions until your next turn (which stings), and importantly, one of the big reasons it is cited to be good- escaping paralysis? It doesn't work. Unlike most spell-like abilities, invocations are specifically stated to have somatic components. If you're paralyzed, grappled or otherwise incapacitated, you can't use this to escape. Flee the Scene still has its uses, but it has huge downsides that are not properly addressed or taken into account here.

    Noxious Blast. Just blue? It's a spammable save or lose that can affect multiple enemies at once if you have the right blast shape. Not working on some enemies is sad, but I'd call this purple, easily. Its drawback is no worse than Chilling Tentacles having to deal with Freedom of Movement or big grapplers, I'd say.

    Incarnum Blast. Given the alignment restriction, and the fact that this makes your eldritch blast not work at all against non-living creatures if it is applied, and because it only lasts 1 round, I don't know that I agree on this having blue status. I can see how it would be useful, but it seems too situational. At minimum, I believe it is the least of the blue options by far.

    Eldritch Cone. Reflex-half area effects get a lot of hate, and there IS reason for that, but in general I think people are a little too hard on them. I generally agree with all the criticism leveled at it, but I'd point out a few things: First, it affects the most area of the blast shapes, excluding Doom (but doom... well, I don't want to spend a dark invocation on it). Second, given the cone shape and a warlock's almost guaranteed ability to fly, you can manipulate the shape of the effect by angle to give you a much more interesting variety of options. Third, and here is what I view as the most important part: It is one of only three blast shapes that allows Eldritch Blast to work on something other than an attack roll. The other two are Eldritch Line- which is even worse than Cone- and Eldritch Doom, which is a Dark invocation. A reflex area effect isn't exactly optimal, but it's better than no other options at all, I'd say, especially with things like Ray Deflection out there, or simply ways to get high touch ACs in the case of Eldritch Glaive.
    I might very tentatively suggest making it a black option, or perhaps more honestly, I might make a note of the value of having a non-attack roll blast shape, if only through a magic item.

    Devour magic. Yeah, it's touch range and targeted only. On the other hand... Greater Dispel at will. I don't think it is blue by any stretch of the imagination, but it'll serve its purpose. I don't think of it as an offensive invocation really- but you can use it against various active magics, from illusions to wards to debuffs on your allies, and it'll serve you just fine there. I'd definitely think of it as being head and shoulders above all the other red options at that level- I'd contest it as being black as a utility effect more comparable to Caster's Lament.

    Wall of Perilous Flame... I'm not seeing this being useful at all. Despite being massive, and being able to make tons of them with adequate time, it's still awful. If you have time to make tons of fire walls, you know what you also have time to do? Make tons of chilling tentacles. Do that instead and don't bother with this. I'd call it red.

    Path of Shadow. Okay, this is a little different. I think the rating is accurate, but the description is missing a cool thing- you're not on the material plane when you're using this. Which means it is much more than a simple travel effect, it's a solid escape ability too, perhaps even better than teleport might be. Given just how few planar travel abilities there are that have precision, following someone that uses Path of Shadow into the Shadow Plane is not exactly easy. As the Warlock can use it at will, even if they're followed they can generally move, dismiss and recast it to random walk until they lose their tail.

    Utterdark Blast. "Does not affect undead." Well, um, not quite. Utterdark Blast is rather interesting for being the only blast essence to not only deal negative levels, but negative energy damage. If you frequently work with undead, either from having The Dead Walk, or something else, it's quite worth noting that you can use this as a debuff to enemies and a healing power to allies at the same time.


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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcleon View Post
    The Cyran Gliding Boots are in there too... >.> That... could be taken so many different ways... O.O
    Yay, epic stuff! Shadowmaster > everything else.
    They are good for Glaivelocks.
    That's the beauty of my jokes.
    Yeah, a ton of 8th and below spells is pretty much the basis of many builds. It's deservedly epic.

    @Vael

    I'll add Travel Devotion, Ability Focus, and the Note about healing Undead. Thanks for point this stuff out, this was really stretched out with all of the stuff that got put into it when I got a hold of it.

    Morcleon, can you make a list of all of things I said I would do and dangle it over my head until I get them done?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
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    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Okay! Right now, the list is as follows:
    • Finish spoilering dips and PrC.
    • Finish comments on dips and PrCs.
    • Add a Class Skills section.
    • Add a Roles section.
    • Add an Epic Feat section.
    • Add Sudden Metamagic feats.
    • Add Whisper Gnome.
    • Add Mindbender PrC.
    • Delete the random period between "Introduction" and "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants"
    • Normalize spacing between spoilers.
    • Properly spoiler the greater invocation Caustic Mire.
    • Add Vael's stuff (Travel Devotion, Ability Focus, healing undead, etc)
    • Write a forward for the handbook.

    I... think that's it for now.
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    I would like to point out that use of Eldritch Cone can be useful if you are aiming straight DOWN at a group of opponents. Then it would roughly have the same area of effect a Fireball has, you're flying out of their reach so it doesn't matter if it is 5' or 500' since they can't move in that direction, and you don't have to worry about rolling a natural 1. Even if your opponents save, you are doing at least something, even if it is half-damage, since few opponents actually have Evasion.

    Furthermore, since it's pretty much guaranteed to do some damage, it is viable as a mechanism to transmit more serious threats, like Nauseating Blast, Hindering Blast, Beshadowed Blast, and other Save or Lose conditions. In this case, damage is irrelevant, it's the status effects, with their own save, which is the danger.

    I'd still say Eldritch Chain is superior, but I wouldn't put Cone at red.

    Also, taking a Rogue or Scout dip onto a Warlock isn't a bad thing, considering the scouting ability it provides. It's a shame you can't get Arcane Trickster to work with Warlock without a moderate amount of cheese (Nosmiatic Chirgeon or dipping another class with casting to qualify then telling it to advance warlock casting).
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    EDIT:

    Snowbluff:

    I am willing to spoiler my arguments for or against certain choices in this thread, but I don't agree with the content of the guide itself being spoilered. It may have a lot of content, but, well, that's the point--to be a compendium, a collection of knowledge for people to pour over and learn from. Having everything out in the open makes it all so much more accessible. Anybody who would TL;DR (and who would come to a guide and do that?) can CTRL+F and search for exactly what they... Oh wait, they can't, because it's all spoilered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Originally when I saw this handbook, I was not sure what I should do. I had a number of objections to it, but I felt hesitant to bring them up, as I only found it after significant time had passed. However, with the revival of this thread, and the promise of updates for it, I feel this is a good time to bring up my thoughts on it.
    If I may:

    On the Emphasis of Clawlock:
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    First, a recurring difficulty I have with this handbook is its continued emphasis on the Eldritch Claw warlock. Now, to be clear, I have no problem with that flavor of warlock. It is a quite viable and useful option- that's not my difficulty here. What I object to is rather how materials really suitable only to the Eldritch Claw warlock are frequently and almost consistently marked as good options. For example, at least three of the races are really mentioned only for their ability to get Rapidstrike. For a non-claw warlock, the idea that the Elan or Synad are choices equal to Human or Halfling is... inaccurate, I'd say. You see similar things in the feat section, from things like Beast Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike.
    I think I'd strongly suggest listing such things under their non-Clawlock rating, but then mention their rating in regards to clawlock in the description. If that doesn't sit right, it could at least say "this drops to X if you are not making a Clawlock" in the description. I see some attempt at that, but I think it needs to be much more explicit. Use the Invocation section as an example, I'd say. The difference in power for items in different builds was handled much better there.
    I actually agree whole-heartedly on this. It's something I myself took objection to the first time around: Clawlocks are going to make it to fewer tables than anything else a Warlock can do (being that they are based on Dragon Magazine content), and use the Warlock only peripherally in a lot of ways. Even without these objections, it's still only one variant of many.

    Races
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    I'd further make a note about Pixie in there. It's a relatively common build suggestion- constantly invisible, flying warlocks are rather amusing, though the LA cost is high.

    In addition, while Charisma is not necessary for a good Warlock, there are Warlock builds that can benefit from higher Charisma. This in mind, it isn't it just a little odd how races Charisma penalties get more spotlight than races with Charisma bonuses? Lesser Aasimar and Spellscale (possibly Star Elves) should at least get a mention, I feel. They might not be the best options, but they're options that bear noting, I think. Also Hellbred, but that was mentioned already.
    On the Pixie: It will definitely be getting special mention in this guide if for no better reason than it is objectively the best race to take in E6 (where level adjustment is typically handled a little differently). Like, if you're NOT a Pixie, you're either not playing with these LA rules, or you're sacrificing power for some form of non-default flavor.

    On CHA races: While a lack of emphasis was placed on the Charisma-based element of Warlock in favor of melee Warlocks, I would like to caution that races with CHA bonuses are not worth mentioning just because they are races with CHA bonuses. For example, minus anything crazy that can be done with the Dragonblood subtype that my brain is too addled to remember at 5:30am, I'm not sure what Spellscale brings to the table aside from -2 CON/+2 CHA.

    Feats
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    First, Ability Focus needs to get mentioned. It is easy to get, and is a pretty fair selection at early levels, particularly for warlocks who go towards the debuff route. I know this was mentioned before, but it bears repeating.

    Second, Infernal Adept is not blue. It is really not blue at all. Just in case it's been missed, you can only pick an invocation that is two grades lower than your highest grade. The one grade lower clause of Extra Invocation is hard enough. Two grades lower is just a slap in the face. There is only one invocation on the dragonfire adept list that might, might be worth picking this feat up for, but I'm honestly not sure Humanoid Shape is so powerful that it is worth your feat at level 18.

    I would also make a note on Supernatural Transformation. The designer of the class says he doubts it is broken to allow it (though he errs on the side of caution, a position I can respect), and in my experience, it hasn't really been bad either. I've also had a number of DMs allow it. I think warning that it might not be allowed is wise, but if it is allowed, it'd be nice to have a rating that reflected its worth. I'd imagine it is blue or purple, at a thought. The power is not overwhelming, but it is quite useful and you can get it very early on, which is nice.

    Extra Invocation is at least blue. A warlock really needs all the invocations they can get, and in truth, while they don't have a great many feat slots, there also isn't a great deal of options for those feat slots. I'd say Extra Invocation is one of the better choices. For something like a clawlock, where you're trying to focus on damage it might not be as necessary, admittedly, and you'd have fewer slots for it. Still, I'll gladly take the ability to see invisible creatures, add my Cha to a save, or get a constant Entropic Warding over a feat like Improved Natural Attack or Able Learner (which are rated at the same level as Extra Invocation, currently). And those are just the options at level 6, leaving alone the lesser and greater invocations you might take with it later.

    Martial Study could stand to get mentioned. The maneuver Sudden Leap comes up several times, but a feat for getting it isn't? A little odd, I'd say. Besides, there are probably other things that it can be used for with the various melee builds. It may not be optimal compared to a martial adept dip, admittedly (since you'll need to take it more than once to get Sudden Leap). In the same line, I might make note of Travel Devotion- if not in the feat section, at least under Cleric dip. It's something to note for a warlock focused on Eldritch Glaive.
    Martial Study does deserve the mention. Ability Focus isn't necessarily the best use of your feat (correct me if I'm wrong on this, and I have been wrong before, but you actually do have to select which ability this feat improves), but it certainly has its own niche.

    Extra Invocation is variable (fantastic in all builds involving the Chameleon PrC, good in utility Warlocks, mediocre on combat-focused Warlocks, and outright bad on melee Warlocks such as the Clawlock--largely based on feat availability, of course), but the original guide writer had a much heavier focus on claw and melee builds, which hurt it (perhaps unfairly).

    Infernal Adept is good to great on the builds that make the best use of it (such as Chameleon Warlocks, by way of the floating feat), but I can't personally argue the original author's intent myself.

    Invocations
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    I want to object first to Eldritch Spear. I really don't believe it's a blue option. The ability to fire off an eldritch blast from a bit longer of a range is not comparable to See the Unseen, Entropic Warding, or Spiderwalk. I do see how it can be useful, but I think it is more black than blue.

    I also believe The Dead Walk is being overrated here. I do think it is quite cool, but if you just want it to fly or to have a few other abilities permanently, you can really make do with scrolls of animate dead, which are actually pretty cheap. It's definitely not a substitute for Fell Flight given that you need to get the onyx and corpse of an appropriate creature and further hope that they don't die (and for the latter, you'll need to constantly upgrade them, thus spending even more money). Skeletons and zombies aren't particularly amazing minions- the ability to create them temporarily without onyx is nice enough, but I'm not sure it truly merits purple. Props to use of it via Chameleon though- that's a pretty clever strategy, and I definitely get behind that.

    Flee the Scene- the range is terrible, even at high levels it does not actually allow you to reliably outpace an enemy who wants to catch you (due to how run works, or even anyone with a decent speed and double movement). It also, like dimension door, does not allow you to take any actions until your next turn (which stings), and importantly, one of the big reasons it is cited to be good- escaping paralysis? It doesn't work. Unlike most spell-like abilities, invocations are specifically stated to have somatic components. If you're paralyzed, grappled or otherwise incapacitated, you can't use this to escape. Flee the Scene still has its uses, but it has huge downsides that are not properly addressed or taken into account here.

    Noxious Blast. Just blue? It's a spammable save or lose that can affect multiple enemies at once if you have the right blast shape. Not working on some enemies is sad, but I'd call this purple, easily. Its drawback is no worse than Chilling Tentacles having to deal with Freedom of Movement or big grapplers, I'd say.

    Incarnum Blast. Given the alignment restriction, and the fact that this makes your eldritch blast not work at all against non-living creatures if it is applied, and because it only lasts 1 round, I don't know that I agree on this having blue status. I can see how it would be useful, but it seems too situational. At minimum, I believe it is the least of the blue options by far.

    Eldritch Cone. Reflex-half area effects get a lot of hate, and there IS reason for that, but in general I think people are a little too hard on them. I generally agree with all the criticism leveled at it, but I'd point out a few things: First, it affects the most area of the blast shapes, excluding Doom (but doom... well, I don't want to spend a dark invocation on it). Second, given the cone shape and a warlock's almost guaranteed ability to fly, you can manipulate the shape of the effect by angle to give you a much more interesting variety of options. Third, and here is what I view as the most important part: It is one of only three blast shapes that allows Eldritch Blast to work on something other than an attack roll. The other two are Eldritch Line- which is even worse than Cone- and Eldritch Doom, which is a Dark invocation. A reflex area effect isn't exactly optimal, but it's better than no other options at all, I'd say, especially with things like Ray Deflection out there, or simply ways to get high touch ACs in the case of Eldritch Glaive.
    I might very tentatively suggest making it a black option, or perhaps more honestly, I might make a note of the value of having a non-attack roll blast shape, if only through a magic item.

    Devour magic. Yeah, it's touch range and targeted only. On the other hand... Greater Dispel at will. I don't think it is blue by any stretch of the imagination, but it'll serve its purpose. I don't think of it as an offensive invocation really- but you can use it against various active magics, from illusions to wards to debuffs on your allies, and it'll serve you just fine there. I'd definitely think of it as being head and shoulders above all the other red options at that level- I'd contest it as being black as a utility effect more comparable to Caster's Lament.

    Wall of Perilous Flame... I'm not seeing this being useful at all. Despite being massive, and being able to make tons of them with adequate time, it's still awful. If you have time to make tons of fire walls, you know what you also have time to do? Make tons of chilling tentacles. Do that instead and don't bother with this. I'd call it red.

    Path of Shadow. Okay, this is a little different. I think the rating is accurate, but the description is missing a cool thing- you're not on the material plane when you're using this. Which means it is much more than a simple travel effect, it's a solid escape ability too, perhaps even better than teleport might be. Given just how few planar travel abilities there are that have precision, following someone that uses Path of Shadow into the Shadow Plane is not exactly easy. As the Warlock can use it at will, even if they're followed they can generally move, dismiss and recast it to random walk until they lose their tail.

    Utterdark Blast. "Does not affect undead." Well, um, not quite. Utterdark Blast is rather interesting for being the only blast essence to not only deal negative levels, but negative energy damage. If you frequently work with undead, either from having The Dead Walk, or something else, it's quite worth noting that you can use this as a debuff to enemies and a healing power to allies at the same time.

    In order (and spoilered for length):

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    Eldritch Spear:
    Yes, I believe it is absolutely one of the better options offered to you for your least invocation. It is not explosive like the other blast shapes mentioned here, but the range is enough so that you can actually make favorable effective use of the sniping rules, allowing you to effectively initiate and even possibly end encounters remotely (you take a -20 to your Hide check, and the enemy takes up to a -25 penalty on their Spot check to find you). This is indispensable for scout Warlocks or sneak Warlocks, such as those intermixing Arcane Trickster or other Sneak Attack-advancing classes. Once flight is available to you, it lets you stay more than two range increments out of the way of archers, and well out of the way of breath weapons, virtually all cone and line spells, most rays, and everything that will ever deal precision damage aside from the Sniper's Shot spell. Once flight is available to your enemies, it lets you stay completely clear of the three-dimensional charge. Basically, it is the combat invocation of choice for all builds that abhor combat, or at least the "fair fight", and is already graded less favorably for combat builds that require it stay close. The best thing it has going for it is that it's a least invocation, and for the invocation grade at which you get it, yes, it does compare favorably against almost everything; in fact, I'd say that the most compelling argument not to get it is that most people can just get it on a rod or two fairly cheaply, which I encourage them to do if they can.

    The Dead Walk:
    The Dead Walk is something that literally merits looking at other guides than this to understand the full breadth and scope of its usefulness. Basically, it's good for all the reasons Animate Dead is good, as well as all the reasons Summon Monster is good (provided you have corpses but no onyx), and then some, and there's absolutely no way that I could hope to describe them all in one invocation's description (though I certainly did try). Basically, The Dead Walk requires some degree of system mastery and effort to use at its fullest potential, but when it does, and you saddle yourself up with some of the better undead available to you, it is devastating.

    For instance, zombies themselves aren't terribly good--they are slow and offer little reward when they do catch up with something--but the hydra, the rhinoceros, and any of the jungle cats are exceptional as zombies because of the way that their special qualities interact with a partial charge (hydras make one attack with each head as part of a standard action; rhinoceroses retain the powerful charge special quality, and jungle cats retain the pounce special quality, both of which can be used with a partial charge).

    Zombies retain all forms of movement, so a Diglett thoqqua or bulette (or some other creature with a burrow speed) is useful for anything you would need a burrow speed for, a Lapras hydra or scrag is good for anything you would need a swim speed for, and a Pidgeot giant eagle or dire bat is good for anything you would need a fly speed for. A remorhaz skeleton retains their heat quality, which makes it exceptionally painful in the mid-level range. And all of these are just core.

    Skeletal dragons (Draconomicon, p. 192) and zombie dragons (ibid, p. 197) are exceptionally good for their kind--better than any other type of skeleton or zombie in general, barring niche examples like the above--and do not have a Hit Dice cap, unlike the bog-standard skeleton and zombie, making them ideal late-game targets if your zombie hydra isn't keeping pace. Skeletal dragons retain the BAB, saves, all extraordinary special attacks and qualities (such as blindsense and frightful presence), and all mundane attack forms save for crush, meaning their full attack routine remains largely unchanged, and they are just as lethal on the frontline. Additionally, they retain any immunities based on subtype, and are saddled with a number of others for being undead. Zombie dragons are as above, except they lose frightful presence, but keep the flight and the breath weapon, which make adult dragons great late-game mounts (you'd be best served picking a dragon with a breath weapon that has a good effect, as opposed to one that deals damage). Both types retain burrow and climb speeds, so even a skeletal dragon can be helpful for mobility.

    If you keep a few spare HD open, you can keep the cost-free method open for disposable skeletal minions for such things as disabling traps, opening doors, solving switch puzzles (arrrrrrghhhhhhh), scouting, and basically anything else you would use Summon Monster for. If you feel like hauling the bodies around (load them on your zombie rhino), you can create a disposable Instant Army during the "prebuff" phase of preparation, whenever you get one. It can even be used during combat to spontaneously create undead out of part of the force you were fighting, especially during longer combats, making combat much like a chess board where you take your friend's pieces, repaint them, and put them on the board wherever you want. It even has a built-in method for destroying the evidence! This version is definitely not as devastating as the permanent version, but its uses cannot be ignored.

    I don't understand the objection based on the cost of the material components. 25gp/HD is not cost-prohibitive unless you are making expendable minions every encounter, which you should be doing for free anyway. Some small measure of protection is useful for the ones you want to keep around (studded leather barding never goes out of style), but if the party spellcasters are team players, they shouldn't have a problem extending party-wide buffs to the help (unless they have a problem with chaos or evil, in which case why are you playing a Warlock with them?), and if you took Dark Foresight, you should definitely be extending it to all your undead minions as well, both for the AC/Reflex bonus and the ability to communicate orders telepathically with all of them. Command word items of any buff spell you would want extended to all your friends is useful--and totally a thing you can do, if you're twelfth level or higher--so keeping them all buffed is as simple as keeping the rest of the party buffed, essentially, if you have to do it all yourself. For the mileage you can get out of this invocation if you're doing it right... Yes, it's an absolute must-have, unless you can trivialize taking it in some way (like being a Chameleon and doing it all during your downtime).

    Flee the Scene:
    You're right; that is totally my bad. Flee the Scene is something that requires Sudden Still to achieve Freedom of Movement-level nirvana, and while that does improve the invocation significantly, I can't recommend you take it for that purpose. I'll write up a revision and consider knocking this to just good, although it still does something that you can't really buy cheaply or easily.

    Noxious Blast:
    If you read through the discussions in the first thread (I don't expect you to have), you'll see that I am more or less in agreement with you here: this is, in my opinion, the best eldritch essence to take for a wide variety of builds. However, in addition to not affecting some creatures, it is a Fortitude save-or-lose, with Fortitude just generally being a worse save to target than Will (but still better than Reflex). The biggest thing keeping this from being a must-grab, however, is that the competition for eldritch essences at this level is quite stiff--and none are definitively superior to all the others. Noxious Blast is strongly recommended, but if you were to grab, say, Vitriolic Blast instead, you would certainly be forgiven for it. It's still very good--just not a must-grab (as long as you grab one of them, I feel, you will endure).

    Incarnum Blast:
    I agree that it is the weakest blue of the three, but it is still ahead of most of the field of greater invocations, simply because dazed is that good of a condition: it's something that basically needs to have counters put in place for it, and it completely shuts down the thing that is afflicted by it. It only has a one-round duration, but for a quality condition like dazed, that is very often enough. It is less of an instant sell than the others, though, admittedly (but again, the competition is stiff).

    Eldritch Cone:
    Being the least terrible of all the blast shapes which don't require attack rolls (all of which are greater or dark, mind) does not make it any better than its competition for that invocation slot, save of course for Eldritch Line. The item option is always available (and certainly more palatable than spending an invocation slot or your last feat on this), but if it wasn't, I wouldn't recommend spending one of your three greater invocations on it (and certainly not one of your three dark invocations!). Being a counter to Ray Deflection or the tarrasque's carapace does not redeem it, unless every single monster you fight has Ray Deflection, in which case your DM is pre-empting you; run fast and far away.

    Nothing else I have to say on this invocation hasn't already been said in my (other) spoilered arguments.

    Devour Magic:
    This was basically my original summary of the invocation. For anybody devoted enough to dispelling that they need the extra caster level, being the only Greater Dispel alone makes it black. For removing illusions, wards, and things from your party, either the lesser version will do (unlike Caster's Lament, there is no clause against retrying with Voracious Dispelling or Relentless Dispelling, so you can just keep trying to dispel it until you finally succeed), or time pressures are making it impossible for the lesser version to work (typically this means you're in combat, in which case the best defense is a strong offense, especially when the alternative is an opposed caster level check). This remains true up until level 20 (when the DC becomes 31, and it becomes impossible to succeed the check without somehow increasing the CL cap), or at least very close to it (when it becomes unreasonable to pass the check in a few rounds' time). I don't dispute its usefulness in these cases; I just think that it falls under a nasty Catch-22: it shines the most when it is needed the least (when there is no pressure to be tactical about your decision, and you can just walk up and brute-force the magic away).

    Wall of Perilous Flame:
    Yeah, not gonna lie... It's mostly just the fact that the walls get huge here. This spell has really only that one distinction: it can basically level an entire army of low-level mooks lined up for war in record time, and multiple castings mean multiple lines in that regard (in essence, making a mockery of the traditional interpretation of medieval combat), which makes it the best "busywork" invocation. Chilling Tentacles doesn't quite manage that in the same way (mostly because it's not a line-shaped spell), even though it's superior in almost all other regards. I suppose it does deserve to be red, though. I'll reconsider it.

    Path of Shadows:
    This is a very good point! I'll include the escape ability.

    Utterdark Blast:
    Ah, yes. A copy-paste error on my part (writing all that became tiresome, so I copy-pasted the same tags and some qualifying text to expedite the process); I will revise that, and also make special mention of the fact that it can be used to heal undead (with a more favorable rating for wannabe Necromancers). Thanks for pointing that out to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I would like to point out that use of Eldritch Cone can be useful if you are aiming straight DOWN at a group of opponents. Then it would roughly have the same area of effect a Fireball has, you're flying out of their reach so it doesn't matter if it is 5' or 500' since they can't move in that direction, and you don't have to worry about rolling a natural 1. Even if your opponents save, you are doing at least something, even if it is half-damage, since few opponents actually have Evasion.
    Chilling Tentacles also has the same area of effect a Fireball has, but can be cast from much further away (and from pretty much any spot within 200 or so feet of the target location, instead of an exact point about 25 feet above), and not only is the damage automatic from that, but the effect persists, so as to make sure nobody walks through that space unmolested until after combat ends.

    Ignoring the fact that you don't have Eldritch Cone until six levels after flight became a class feature for many humanoids (and a regular thing for most animals, outsiders and aberrations worthy of mention, since flight is pretty archetypal), "5' out of reach" is a passable Jump check for many (and a trivial Jump check for some), and being within 30 feet of a great many people (and directly over them) typically means you're within Close range for every spell that needs to be cast, the first range increment for every arrow that needs to be fired, and the line of fire for every other (Ex), (Su), and (Sp) ability worthy of mention.

    Chilling Tentacles on cold-immune creatures still confers the difficult terrain/grapple effect, again, remotely.

    Furthermore, since it's pretty much guaranteed to do some damage, it is viable as a mechanism to transmit more serious threats, like Nauseating Blast, Hindering Blast, Beshadowed Blast, and other Save or Lose conditions. In this case, damage is irrelevant, it's the status effects, with their own save, which is the danger.
    I'm not inclined to disagree with you on this, which is why Noxious Blast is blue (and Hindering Blast is black). The off-chance that you roll a 1 (and don't have a contingency for that sort of thing) doesn't necessarily make it a viable method of transmittal, however, and the fact that these invocations can be applied to it at all doesn't make it better than any of the other blast shapes, or vanilla Eldritch Blast (all of which can have all of the essences applied to them).

    I'd still say Eldritch Chain is superior, but I wouldn't put Cone at red.
    The question I think I really need to put forward to everybody stepping forward in defense of Cone is this:

    Would you spend a greater invocation on it?

    Pretend the Rod of Eldritch Power doesn't exist (for the purposes of my invocation ratings, it didn't). You have three greater invocation slots, four if you spend your very last feat pre-epic on it, and one opportunity to swap. Is this what you're going to be spending one of them on?

    Also, taking a Rogue or Scout dip onto a Warlock isn't a bad thing, considering the scouting ability it provides. It's a shame you can't get Arcane Trickster to work with Warlock without a moderate amount of cheese (Nosmiatic Chirgeon or dipping another class with casting to qualify then telling it to advance warlock casting).
    To wit, the feat Spell Hand (Complete Arcane, p. 83) allows you to qualify for Arcane Trickster (it only asks that you be able to cast Mage Hand, which Spell Hand gives you). One of the Warlock builds I submitted for the "builds" section (the scout build) used this feat to qualify.
    Last edited by Lonely Tylenol; 2012-12-27 at 02:02 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    To wit, the feat Spell Hand (Complete Arcane, p. 83) allows you to qualify for Arcane Trickster (it only asks that you be able to cast Mage Hand, which Spell Hand gives you). One of the Warlock builds I submitted for the "builds" section (the scout build) used this feat to qualify.
    Just having the Spell Hand Feat isn't enough for Arcane Trickster...you need to be able to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher too, which is the much harder aspect to fulfill. As a DM, I'd be willing to waive this requirement with being able to use Lesser Invocations, but RAW, Warlocks have a much harder time of it than burning a Feat to get in.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    On CHA races: While a lack of emphasis was placed on the Charisma-based element of Warlock in favor of melee Warlocks, I would like to caution that races with CHA bonuses are not worth mentioning just because they are races with CHA bonuses.
    That's fair, but there are so few of them that you might as well list them all anyway.
    Besides, if you're listing Warforged... I mean, what exactly is Warforged offering to Warlock here? It's a fun race, but I don't see what it lends to Warlock in particular that makes it noteworthy.
    Though perhaps that's just an argument for removing Warforged.

    Ability Focus isn't necessarily the best use of your feat (correct me if I'm wrong on this, and I have been wrong before, but you actually do have to select which ability this feat improves), but it certainly has its own niche.
    This is true. As far as I'm aware, however, you can just select "Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast" and cover all your essence invocations, which is pretty rad. That's the real winner there.

    Infernal Adept is good to great on the builds that make the best use of it (such as Chameleon Warlocks, by way of the floating feat), but I can't personally argue the original author's intent myself.
    Could you... explain this? I'm honestly having significant trouble seeing why the Chameleon would care about Infernal Adept at all. I suppose in theory it does open up new invocations, but in practice... I'd think there are always way better things to allocate that feat to. What exactly makes Infernal Adept worth taking?

    The question I think I really need to put forward to everybody stepping forward in defense of Cone is this:

    Would you spend a greater invocation on it?

    Pretend the Rod of Eldritch Power doesn't exist (for the purposes of my invocation ratings, it didn't). You have three greater invocation slots, four if you spend your very last feat pre-epic on it, and one opportunity to swap. Is this what you're going to be spending one of them on?
    If I'm more of a utility warlock? No.
    But if my best weapon and main mode of attack is Eldritch Blast? Yes. It's painful giving up some of those other invocations, but even with a fair DM there will be enough times when a reflex save based blast will be far better suited to the task than an attack roll based blast.
    In a way, it is comparable to Vitriolic Blast. Some builds won't need Eldritch Blast to bypass SR. They can do fine without it. But if your build is centered on Eldritch Blast, you need it to be reliable. The more options and variety you can give it in methods of attack, the better. And cone, for all its faults, is one of the easiest methods to significant alter that method.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Just having the Spell Hand Feat isn't enough for Arcane Trickster...you need to be able to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher too, which is the much harder aspect to fulfill. As a DM, I'd be willing to waive this requirement with being able to use Lesser Invocations, but RAW, Warlocks have a much harder time of it than burning a Feat to get in.
    This is the problem, yes. Nosmiac Chirgeon can bypass it by being able to trade in uses of SLAs to be able to cast the Inflict series as arcane, as well as advancing arcane casting. Since you have no lack of SLA uses, this can be optimized to produce decent damage output against non-undead, better than your EB anyways. You'd have to be built specifically for it, though. Definitely a build which begs for The Dead Walk so you can heal your pets effectively.

    And because you can then cast spells of 3rd level or higher, you get in. Unfortunately, because of the requirements of NC, it's going to be a very specific and dedicated build.

    The other option is to dip Assassin, but that again detracts from your Warlock levels, which is made of fail. Even if you use Eldritch Theurge to minimize your lost levels, it's still doubtful if you can get enough levels of Warlock Invocations to be worth the hassle.

    As far as Eldritch Cone, it suffers from the problem that most of your best invocations are Greater, so it's really hard to chose just three. Fortunately, with a two-level dip in Chameleon, you get an extra one once you hit Dark invocations. It really depends on the kind of encounters you get. If you get a few powerful opponents, then it probably isn't worth it. But if your GM loves sending swarms of not as powerful things at you, then it can be amazing. Particularly when combined with methods of making sure that you really aren't getting hit in combat, even then. Stuff like Flight, Improved Invisibility, and even simple item choices like Lesser Cloak of Displacement or a Wand of Mirror Image can make you much safer than the party beatstick in melee combat.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2012-12-27 at 03:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Just having the Spell Hand Feat isn't enough for Arcane Trickster...you need to be able to cast a spell of 3rd level or higher too, which is the much harder aspect to fulfill. As a DM, I'd be willing to waive this requirement with being able to use Lesser Invocations, but RAW, Warlocks have a much harder time of it than burning a Feat to get in.
    That's the beautiful thing: that is exactly how it works, by RAW and RAI. You need to be able to cast at least one spell of third level or higher, which all your lesser invocations on up totally are. Complete Arcane--the book in which the Warlock was first published--had this to say on the matter of specific spell requirements (p. 71):

    A requirement based on a specific spell measures whether
    the character or creature in question is capable of producing
    the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like
    abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements
    for specific spell knowledge. For example, a prestige
    class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be
    able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness
    as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as
    a spell-like ability.
    In other words, to qualify for Arcane Trickster, the Warlock does not need to be able to cast spells of third level or better--which would bar its entry--it simply needs to be able to cast at least one spell of third level or better, which is a specific requirement (not general), and allows its entry. Spell-like abilities are allowed to count as the corresponding spell for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes or feats, and since lesser invocations on up all have spell levels totaling third or better, it allows for qualifications to the prestige class.

    At least, this is the consensus that has been used for the better part of a decade, and the resolution for pretty much every discussion I've ever seen on the matter. The singular nature of the Arcane Trickster's requirements make all the difference.

    (If you are that unsure, however, you can qualify by being a Lesser Aasimar via the Daylight SLA, and gain the benefit of a +CHA race with all the trimmings.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    That's fair, but there are so few of them that you might as well list them all anyway.
    Besides, if you're listing Warforged... I mean, what exactly is Warforged offering to Warlock here? It's a fun race, but I don't see what it lends to Warlock in particular that makes it noteworthy.
    Though perhaps that's just an argument for removing Warforged.
    I claim no responsibility for the list of races; my contribution to what is on the guide now started and ended with the invocations. But what Warforged bring to the table is basically the ability to never stop. Ever. You don't need to rest to recover spells, as Warlocks just cast invocations at-will, and you don't need to rest for any other reason.

    Of the +CHA races, Aasimar is definitely worthy of mention. Star Elf, on the other hand, is not; it offers you +2 CHA and -2 CON, and some elf-like things, but the elf-like things can be gained by levels in Ruathar if you don't have anything better to do, and that's the easiest PrC to gain access to ever (and loses none of your invocation casting).

    This is true. As far as I'm aware, however, you can just select "Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast" and cover all your essence invocations, which is pretty rad. That's the real winner there.
    Agreed.

    Could you... explain this? I'm honestly having significant trouble seeing why the Chameleon would care about Infernal Adept at all. I suppose in theory it does open up new invocations, but in practice... I'd think there are always way better things to allocate that feat to. What exactly makes Infernal Adept worth taking?
    Options!

    Specifically, the Chameleon's floating feat allows you to take Extra Invocation and Infernal Adept freely, changing the invocation you use every day. The point is that, in exchange for your third Dark invocation, two levels in Warlock gives you an unofficial "floating" invocation that can be any least, lesser or greater Warlock invocation, or a least or lesser Dragonfire Adept invocation, as you please. The feat is great simply because it gives you more options, and you don't have to commit to actually keeping the feat with Chameleon--which makes it a fantastic option, if only for the occasional use of Draconic Knowledge, Magic Insight to identify, Frightful Presence (on your attack) and Humanoid Shape.

    If I'm more of a utility warlock? No.
    But if my best weapon and main mode of attack is Eldritch Blast? Yes. It's painful giving up some of those other invocations, but even with a fair DM there will be enough times when a reflex save based blast will be far better suited to the task than an attack roll based blast.
    In a way, it is comparable to Vitriolic Blast. Some builds won't need Eldritch Blast to bypass SR. They can do fine without it. But if your build is centered on Eldritch Blast, you need it to be reliable. The more options and variety you can give it in methods of attack, the better. And cone, for all its faults, is one of the easiest methods to significant alter that method.
    I don't know if I agree with that... But I can respect the desire to have more options. I still don't think it's worth the greater invocation by any stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    As far as Eldritch Cone, it suffers from the problem that most of your best invocations are Greater, so it's really hard to chose just three. Fortunately, with a two-level dip in Chameleon, you get an extra one once you hit Dark invocations. It really depends on the kind of encounters you get. If you get a few powerful opponents, then it probably isn't worth it. But if your GM loves sending swarms of not as powerful things at you, then it can be amazing. Particularly when combined with methods of making sure that you really aren't getting hit in combat, even then. Stuff like Flight, Improved Invisibility, and even simple item choices like Lesser Cloak of Displacement or a Wand of Mirror Image can make you much safer than the party beatstick in melee combat.
    Chameleon with Extra Invocation makes Eldritch Cone much more palatable. I am of the mind that Extra Invocation and Chameleon are the stars there, but it definitely does make it easier to swallow.
    Homebrew!
    5e: Expanded Inspiration Uses

    Spoiler: 3.5/P Stuff. Warning: OLD
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    Default Re: The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Wow, I can't even go to work for a full shift without this exploding. I'll try to sift through this...
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    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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