The Newest Warlock Handbook [3.5]

[Snowbluff]

Hm... I'll have to consider it.

I am trying not to rate them on the prerequisites.

[Morcleon]

I'm playing an epic Glaivelock right now, and I have to say thay Dark Transient is possibly blue. I didn't have to go much out of my way to get it, because its prerequisite invocations are prime picks anyway. It's incredibly useful to be able to go anywhere you want whenever you want--seriously, space is no obstacle anymore--and to not have to worry about speed in the campaign's teleport-blocker zones.

I'd put it at a high black but, compared to the others (particularly Eldritch Sculptor, Lord of the Elements and Shadowmaster), it's a bit lackluster, as most long distance travel is better done with casters. Of course, it does help if you have an enveloping pit and the need to 'port all over the place.

Maybe put in a "this is blue if you expect to need lots of long-distance mobility".

[Kazyan]

I have Shadowmaster and Eldritch Sculptor in that game as well. (We're level 34...) Dark Transient pales in comparison to Eldritch Sculptor, true. I don't really know how to use Shadowmaster even though I have a cheat sheet. Still, the feat was very worth the slot, as were the other two.

[Morcleon]

I have Shadowmaster and Eldritch Sculptor in that game as well. (We're level 34...) Dark Transient pales in comparison to Eldritch Sculptor, true. I don't really know how to use Shadowmaster even though I have a cheat sheet. Still, the feat was very worth the slot, as were the other two.

It's a nice one to have once you've gotten the other good ones, and it's certainly better than most of the other black ones.

Shadowmaster is:
1. Standard action to get 50% miss chance.
2. Immunity to all shadow spells and effects.
3. Cast any Sorc/Wiz conjuration (creation or summoning) or evocation spell 8th level or lower (but using the DC of a 9th level spell), with a Will save to take only 80% damage, or have an 80% chance of the spell working. Get a list of the best spells that work with this, and you're set. If you need something specific and you think conjuration or evocation could do it, see if your DM will let you go google it.

[Socratov]

Socratov: The problem with Blood Magus is two-fold:

First, most of the class's abilities most likely don't work with warlock invocations. They specifically say spell, and not spell-like. Since this was in the book that introduced the warlock and other PrC's (ie: Mindbender) mention spell-likes, this probably means that blood magus wasn't meant to work with warlocks.

and with lvl 12 you can scribe actual spells into your flesh.

The first point can be DM hand-waved. The second is baked into the class. It requires two really useless feats (Great Fortitude, and the worst feat in 3e, Toughness), as well as getting killed and brought back, which is really hard/expensive to do at lower level.

true, I never said the prereqs were worth it. I was more focused on what the class actually gives you if you want to play it

What do you get in return? A weaker version of two low-level crafting feats, a few useful and minor abilities (staunch, death knell), and two lost caster levels. It really, really, isn't worth it. If you're that desperate for the crafting feats, just take them, but really, by 12th level you should be crafting more powerful things, if you're crafting at all.

true, if you go crafting, warlock 12/chameleon 2 is all you will ever need (it will be fun with hellfire warlock 2 since you can use hellfire to apply metamagic to wands etc.)

However, it can be a fun class to use if you are into that sort of thing/if the optimizationlevel of your group allows it.

My point in that post was whether a blood magus works with warlock or whether it would be an option at all. Which it is. It is possible, it does give you something and yes, it could be fun if it's your thing.

What you are saying is like with druid PrC's: yes they work and may be fun, but in the end they aren't worth it (except for planar shepherd) since druid on it's own is stronger.

Woudl I take the class for power? No. You need those casterlevels IMO. But is it possible (which is the actual question)? Yes. Would it give some nice stuffs? Yes, it has it's good parts. Is it good? No not really.

[Garret Dorigan]

Quick question. While I understand that this handbook is a continuation of the last one, why does the section on Chameleon list all these ways to get Disguise as a class skill... especially when Disguise is on the Warlock's skill list?

Am I missing something here on this one?

Also, Human Paragon (UA) is another nice little class for Hellfire boosting that isn't listed.

[Snowbluff]

Quick question. While I understand that this handbook is a continuation of the last one, why does the section on Chameleon list all these ways to get Disguise as a class skill... especially when Disguise is on the Warlock's skill list?

Am I missing something here on this one?

Yeah, all of the mistakes haven't been weeded out yet. Thanks.

Also, Human Paragon (UA) is another nice little class for Hellfire boosting that isn't listed.

Nope. HFlock doesn't progress based on CL, so it doesn't affect Hellfire Blast when you take Human Paragon, and it's not a valid target for the progression anyway.

[Garret Dorigan]

Ah, I see what you mean now. I had always though that HP had "Features" at the end of it's table entry.

[Qwertystop]

Any prestige classes for a Glaivelock? The only top-grade ones I see are very definitely not melee, except Hellfire which is small and Chameleon which is race-restrictive.

[Snowbluff]

Any prestige classes for a Glaivelock? The only top-grade ones I see are very definitely not melee, except Hellfire which is small and Chameleon which is race-restrictive.

Specifically? No, not really. Warlock does not lend itself well to full-BaB classes. A rogue+caster type might work, but I suggest Eldritch Disciple.

Since Disciples have cleric spells you can use Divine Power for full BaB. They can also use glaive to heal their allies with Healing Blast.

I'll do some research for some more to put in the handbook.

[Qwertystop]

Any basic level-order for it? Bare minimums? Going into a game very soon, assuming I get accepted.

[Namfuak]

Any prestige classes for a Glaivelock? The only top-grade ones I see are very definitely not melee, except Hellfire which is small and Chameleon which is race-restrictive.

I was playing around in my head with an Eldritch Disciple glaivelock. Right now the build is Binder 1/Warlock 6/Ur Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 9/HFW 2. Binder can be replaced with any full Fort Save class to meet Ur-Priest's prerequisites, but binder just seemed like the best choice. I could be missing some requirement somewhere, so if something's off just let me know.

[Snowbluff]

Any basic level-order for it? Bare minimums? Going into a game very soon, assuming I get accepted.

The build above will work, but it would require evilness.

If you don't want to be evil, Warlock2/Cleric3/EldritchDsciple10 will work. If you want more theurging, find a way to enter Mystic Theurge (Warlock should progress from this, IIRC). Otherwise, Binder and/or Hellfire Warlock tricks will work.

[Namfuak]

The build above will work, but it would require evilness.

Oh yeah, my idea for the character was an unseelie fey who hates the gods for forcing him to live in his grotesque body. I figured it would fit well as a BBEG who wants to summon an elder evil, but it could be a PC as well.

[Morcleon]

Breath of the Night keys off fog cloud, not obscuring mist. Shouldn't this bring it up to black?

[Qwertystop]

The build above will work, but it would require evilness.

If you don't want to be evil, Warlock2/Cleric3/EldritchDsciple10 will work. If you want more theurging, find a way to enter Mystic Theurge (Warlock should progress from this, IIRC). Otherwise, Binder and/or Hellfire Warlock tricks will work.

Character's shifted to a different game that starts at L6. Going Cleric 3/Warlock 2/ED 1 so far, because that gives that little extra boost to HD (first HD max, rest are average). Skill points were too annoying to want to go back and change them.

Only problem is a lack of knowing what feats. Level 3 I got Weapon Finesse for Eldritch Glaive, but other than that I'm not sure what to take. Focusing on general utility, because MIC is awesome.

It's here.

[Snowbluff]

Unless you have iteratives from BaB or running an incredibly potent lockdown, Weapon Finesse is low priority. I wouldn't worry about using it until you're a higher level.

If you are, Travel Devotion (Free if you trade out one of your Domains for the feat) and Extra Turning will fit right at home in the build, as would Power Attack (you don't qualify). Divine Metamagic Persist is a common fallback for clerics.

[Qwertystop]

Unless you have iteratives from BaB or running an incredibly potent lockdown, Weapon Finesse is low priority. I wouldn't worry about using it until you're a higher level.

If you are, Travel Devotion (Free if you trade out one of your Domains for the feat) and Extra Turning will fit right at home in the build, as would Power Attack (you don't qualify). Divine Metamagic Persist is a common fallback for clerics.

No, I'm not actually focusing combat. I'm putting in the absolute minimum required for helping combat and otherwise being general-utility. I felt that Weapon Finesse meant I could get that much more out of the point-buy by dumping Strength, since I need Dex anyway for any ranged-touch spells.

[Snowbluff]

No, I'm not actually focusing combat. I'm putting in the absolute minimum required for helping combat and otherwise being general-utility. I felt that Weapon Finesse meant I could get that much more out of the point-buy by dumping Strength, since I need Dex anyway for any ranged-touch spells.

I would swap out the Glaive for so something with more utility, like see the unseen, until you can get more attacks out of it. Right now it's just filling up your invocation slot. I was going to suggest Extra Invocation, but you need a few more Warlock CL before you can do that.

Extra Turning, DMM, Travel Devotion would work regardless of focus. Practiced Spellcaster is another good feat.

[Qwertystop]

Is sneaking into Sevenfold Veil worth the cost in invocations, after I get far enough into Eldritch Disciple?

[Snowbluff]

Is sneaking into Sevenfold Veil worth the cost in invocations, after I get far enough into Eldritch Disciple?

That would be up to whether or not your DM would let Invocations count as Arcane Spells for the prerequisites. It's better than continuing Warlock, but worse than getting some Cleric progression with a Theurge. The costs are in Warlock Invocations (your bread and butter) and Cleric Spells (More utility). I would say no at this point.

[Qwertystop]

That would be up to whether or not your DM would let Invocations count as Arcane Spells for the prerequisites. It's better than continuing Warlock, but worse than getting some Cleric progression with a Theurge. The costs are in Warlock Invocations (your bread and butter) and Cleric Spells (More utility). I would say no at this point.

Don't they do that by default?

Actually... wait a second... doesn't being a Cleric give me the spells-known requirement on its own? Doesn't say Arcane spells, and I'm pretty sure there's enough Abjurations on the Cleric list to qualify by the time I get to 5th level (my likely breakpoint) in Eldritch Disciple (10th level character). That gets me to level 17... if the game even gets that far I'll just put more Eldritch Disciple in at the end.

[Snowbluff]

Don't they do that by default?

Strictly speaking, SLAs are not spells, and they do not have schools.

[Morcleon]

Snow... Breath of the Night is Fog Cloud, not Obscuring Mist. Could you change around the rating and description?

[Snowbluff]

Snow... Breath of the Night is Fog Cloud, not Obscuring Mist. Could you change around the rating and description?

Uh, these 2 do not look all that different. Could you explain to me why the rating would go up.

[Morcleon]

Uh, these 2 do not look all that different. Could you explain to me why the rating would go up.

You can see through obscuring mist. You can't see through fog cloud. Also, it's medium range (as opposed to 20'), 10 min/level (as opposed to 1 min/level) and gives total concealment rather than just normal concealment.

[Snowbluff]

You can see through obscuring mist. You can't see through fog cloud. Also, it's medium range (as opposed to 20'), 10 min/level (as opposed to 1 min/level) and gives total concealment rather than just normal concealment.

It's at will, duration don't matter as much, and they both can grant total concealment.

[Morcleon]

It's at will, duration don't matter as much, and they both can grant total concealment.

...wait, both give total concealment? Never mind then. Just update the spell it's keyed off of.

[Qwertystop]

Strictly speaking, SLAs are not spells, and they do not have schools.

Complete Arcane, pages 71 and 72. SLAs qualify for the "specific spell" and "caster level" requirements, but not "X-th level spells" requirements. Invocations are SLAs with somatic components that sometimes don't match actual spells. Invocations that do match actual spells count as those spells for prerequisites that require specific spells. It's a bit blurry as to whether it counts, because it doesn't actually give a ruling on Spell School requirements, but it seems workable because the Invocations count as the spells they match "except as follows," which never includes spell-school modification.

Uh, these 2 do not look all that different. Could you explain to me why the rating would go up.

Bigger, longer range, longer duration, fireproof.

[Snowbluff]

Complete Arcane, pages 71 and 72. SLAs qualify for the "specific spell" and "caster level" requirements, but not "X-th level spells" requirements. Invocations are SLAs with somatic components that sometimes don't match actual spells. Invocations that do match actual spells count as those spells for prerequisites that require specific spells. It's a bit blurry as to whether it counts, because it doesn't actually give a ruling on Spell School requirements, but it seems workable because the Invocations count as the spells they match "except as follows," which never includes spell-school modification.

Specific spell is different from school, and they don't count as spells with a level regardless. Sevenfold Veil
Dudes require school, spells of Nth level.

Bigger, longer range, longer duration, fireproof.

Yeah, still red. "Fireproof" doesn't really help much. I changed the source spell, but the first level wand is doing pretty well.