The Culture Explores 40K III: Just As Planned

[jseah]

Previous Threads
1: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256776
2: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260117

Story post links: http://sync.in/ep/pad/view/ro.f7Ii2bq8IM01rFxsOm/latest

[Forum Explorer]

new thread and tracking.


I think Dark Eldar are going to be your biggest challenge to write really. Since they are supposed to be crazy prepared tactical geniuses and the like.

[jseah]

Crazy prepared tactical genius holds no candles to Future Sight or their equivalent of an Outside Context Problem (which the Culture might as well be).

[Forum Explorer]

Crazy prepared tactical genius holds no candles to Future Sight or their equivalent of an Outside Context Problem (which the Culture might as well be).

Dark Eldar in Canon out tactic and stratigize Eldar, Necron, and Chaos forces at times. Despite not having future sight. That's how good they are.

[jseah]

Dark Eldar in Canon out tactic and stratigize Eldar, Necron, and Chaos forces at times. Despite not having future sight. That's how good they are.

Perhaps in conventional battles and the sphere they are used to working in. Future sight is far better at strategic and social manipulations than outright warfare, it allows access to information you couldn't normally get. Like the existence of the Culture.

As much of a genius you can be, but OCPs and the unknown unknowns simply cannot be prepared for.

[jseah]

part 9.5 Dark Eldar

Spoiler

Show

Week 2
GSV I Shoot the Darkness! has arrived from a neighbouring system. While waiting for the return of the Other Eldar, we have constructed a scout probe lavishly decorated with every single scientific instrument we could think of. At least those that would fit through the gate.

-----------
The Other Eldar have come back. This new group is led by a different person, despite positive identification of almost 30% of the ships being the same as the previous fleet. This new Other Eldar appears to be of higher rank than the previous person and from this we surmise that our prior contact will no longer be available.

Given the fluctuating and potentially unstable form of government these Other Eldar seem to have, as well as their unpalatable social practices, we are of the opinion that reform of this society should be attempted. Of course, this requires a method of access. Since these Other Eldar are willing to grant us access in exchange for backing their leadership contests, this does not appear to be a problem.

Some negotiation with this new Eldar person has us settled on an agreement. The Other Eldar will provide gate operation services to allow us into the webway through this gate, in exchange we will back his rise in power as well as provide advanced personal combat weaponry. While we cannot grant them equiv-tech, we estimate that we can produce far more effective, if less... imaginative weaponry with little effort.

-----------------
A short excursion by the scientific probe into the webway indicates a major problem. The webway contains only three dimensional physical space (and considerably more complex dimensionalities in navigation), with no access to hyperspace. This was unanticipated and presents a major stumbling block as not even drones will operate without hyperspace.

We are in the process of designing a fully real-space drone design that retains at least 1:1 intelligence. We do not anticipate having problems with organic Contact and SC agents operating in the webway. A design of a capable scout ship to serve as a base of operations (necessarily without a Mind) is underway.
Given the hostile power relationships that govern what we know of the Other Eldar society, we anticipate a near certainty that the base and any agents we send will come under attack multiple times by Other Eldar forces and must balance the capability to defend our assets against the possibility of technology leakage.

Not least because the webway is not perfect, sections have been damaged according to the Other Eldar and opened to the Warp. The more capable a base we use, the higher the risk that any attack that damages the webway will cause Chaos to gain technology, despite our precautions of self-destruct devices or any other methods. (especially since such devices may not work in the Warp!)

[Forum Explorer]

Perhaps in conventional battles and the sphere they are used to working in. Future sight is far better at strategic and social manipulations than outright warfare, it allows access to information you couldn't normally get. Like the existence of the Culture.

As much of a genius you can be, but OCPs and the unknown unknowns simply cannot be prepared for.

Sure, and I suppose it helps that Dark Eldar are basically unassailable by every other faction besides Eldar (who can't afford the sort of war needed to fight the Dark Eldar) since they live in the webway. Therefore they pick their battles in the most literal sense.

The Dark Eldar have some nasty 'in general' tricks like shunting the threat off to another dimension (and not the warp!) or using insane poisons (like the thing that turns you into a crystal statue.)

[jseah]

They are also ridiculously divided and the crime-syndicate like society they have is seriously dysfunctional. Enough so that what I had happen (aka. some enterprising lackey deciding to displace his boss by leveraging on the Culture) is quite likely.

Of course, in this particular case, his boss kills him and steals his idea but it's the same thing.

The IoM has ridiculously poor coordination. But at least they don't work under a state of continuous internal rebellion.

[Forum Explorer]

They are also ridiculously divided and the crime-syndicate like society they have is seriously dysfunctional. Enough so that what I had happen (aka. some enterprising lackey deciding to displace his boss by leveraging on the Culture) is quite likely.

Of course, in this particular case, his boss kills him and steals his idea but it's the same thing.

The IoM has ridiculously poor coordination. But at least they don't work under a state of continuous internal rebellion.

True but on the other hand the only resource they need from the outside world is souls.

I'm just expecting some serious shenanigans with their parts. They certainly aren't a threat to the Culture, and they are very horrifying society for the Culture to witness so this will fun.

[jseah]

part 9.5 Dark Eldar

Spoiler

Show

Week 3
Preliminary tests indicate our newly re-engineered scout drone is capable of operating in the webway, we believe that there is a possibility of long term operation in the webway. Many of our normal technologies we assume for security are unavailable, from long range effectors to Displacers and Pancakers.

While we retain many advantages over Other Eldar weaponry and craft, this advantage is no longer overwhelming. In the realspace, a single GCU is the match for any number of Dark Eldar ships, in the webway, the most heavily armed Culture ship has to fight on the same order of magnitude in reaction time and only has two orders of magnitude more firepower and defensive capability.

Additionally, we are... unwilling to provide the most advanced technology. The more advanced the technology, the more tempting a target the Contact operational base will be for the Other Eldar and Chaos. Even accounting for exaggeration on their part, the Other Eldar grossly outnumber us. Additionally, there is also the threat that Chaos may attempt to attack the webway to get at the Contact base and the technology it represents.

For these reasons, we believe it necessary that only the minimum of force can be provided. Additionally, we cannot establish an embassy with the Other Eldar until we have reverse engineered enough of the webway gates to gain access without their aid; this is required to maintain the threat of retaliation if our embassy is attacked.

It is unfortunate, but we cannot acede to the Other Eldar's request for us to directly back his ascension. However, the provision of more advanced handheld weapons (railguns developed for the Tau that are an order of magnitude below equiv-tech) and the understanding that we will back him in the future once we are more confident, has preserved the deal.

[Gavinfoxx]

A couple things to remind you...

...handheld magnetic accelerator and gravitic accelerator weapons are relatively common. The main Eldar and Dark Eldar guns -- Shuriken weaponry and Splinter Weaponry, are gravitic and magnetic accelerators, respectively. Of course the Tau use Rail Rifles, and the Mechanicus use fully automatic magnetic accelerator handheld weaponry in some of their elite troops.

Also remember that the Dark Eldar use WAY less psychic tech than the Normal Eldar, because much of their psychic capability is atrophied, though they still use enslaved Eldar to make some of their more psychic stuff.

Also, the Dark Eldar could design weapons that are more effective at protecting them, killing others, and more efficient at killing quickly. They choose not to, because they are there to harvest pain and terror.

"Why do we ride atop these elegant craft? The better to hear the screams of our prey as we ride them down, to savour the fear etched on their faces, to taste the tantalising tang of their blood in the air as an appetiser before the feast. But most of all we ride them so that the slaughter may begin as soon as possible." - Dariaq Bladetongue of the Pierced Eye (Warhammer 40,000 5th Edition Rulebook, p. 70)

[Parra]

From what I can gather, neither Eldar nor Dark Eldar can build any more Webway, correct? And the Webway has finite and fixed exit points? I think I heard mention in the other threads that part of the Webway is cut off from other parts.

Could a potential avenue of control be exerted upon the Dark Eldar by the Culture by shutting down the exits from or otherwise isolating the parts of the Webway that the Dark Eldar inhabit?
Maybe only going so far as to restricting where they can exit, this would limit raids for soul harvesting and might make them a little more desperate and willing to negotiate, if only to save themselves from being consumed by Chaos.

[jseah]

Also, the Dark Eldar could design weapons that are more effective at protecting them, killing others, and more efficient at killing quickly. They choose not to, because they are there to harvest pain and terror.

Except when they're doing a leadership contest by force of arms, then efficiency matters alot. Especially when you aren't interested in harvesting pain and more interested in not dying.

And of course, Culture railguns will be smaller, lighter and far far more powerful. Being you know, antimatter powered.


Parra:
The Culture need galaxy-wide reach before that becomes a possibility. They have maybe 1/3 of the galaxy properly surveyed. Ask again in a year.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eldar can do limited (very) webway engineering. They can make little gates that can't work far from a permanent gate (which they can't make). Look up some of the super heavy tanks...

[jseah]

Eldar can do limited (very) webway engineering. They can make little gates that can't work far from a permanent gate (which they can't make). Look up some of the super heavy tanks...

How much do the Eldar want this capability back? Would they accept if the Culture offered a joint science project to reverse engineer one?
(they would still retain control over its production since the Culture aren't psychics, but it does let the Culture have very valuable strategic information into the Eldar as a whole)

[Parra]

Parra:
The Culture need galaxy-wide reach before that becomes a possibility. They have maybe 1/3 of the galaxy properly surveyed. Ask again in a year.

Granted its not something that they can click their force fields and just make happen immediatly, but as a long term lever used to push the Dark Eldar down a certain path it could be quite useful

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay.... Here's some information on Webway Gates as I understand them. Other people should please strive to correct me!

The first thing you should know: Not all things which can be described as Webway Gates / Webway Nexuses / etc. are the same.

First, let's look at the relevant Lexicanum links:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway_Portal
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wraithgate
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_Serpent
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway_Nexus
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Golden_Throne

Now, what I take away from this (and other descriptions) is a few things. Not all webway gates are the same! Most of them are the super-old ones made by the Old Ones, and which tend to exist at particular places in realspace. These tend to be the most powerful webway gates -- these are the ones on planets, and (implied to be) the ones on Craftworlds. They always link to a particular part of the Webway, and they are usually stuck with whatever they are on. This implies that the biggest Webway gates were all made by the Old Ones, and that there is a limited number of these that can be built (after all, they need to be at a particular place in the Webway to make one of these). The only way for these things to point to a different area of the galaxy is to move the surface that they are on (be it planet, moon, or craftworld). This also means that there is really a limited number of possible craftworlds, cause each HAS to have one of these ancient webway gates at it's core. It is implied that the Eldar *never* mastered the creation of these gates.

Next, there are the smaller gates, which are implied to be able to 'hook into' the webway... this is implied to have a significant mass/size limitation, or possibly, they can only work within a certain real distance to one of these larger, 'core' gates. This is implied to be the sorts of gates that are on the Dark Eldar ships (this isn't certain). Regardless, this is the sort of thing that is on the Storm Serpant and things like that. The Eldar have been able to make these, though presumably, making the larger and more versatile ones is very, very difficult. As is minimizing the personal ones. These, for sure, require psychoplastic materials to make! Non Psykers can not make them -- or at least, there are significant parts that a Psyker is needed for! Whether or not certain parts of these gates can be made without a psyker, to make the job of the psyker / bonesinger / whatever easier and simpler...who knows? Perhaps. This is what is in the Storm Serpents... which it is presumed that at least some Eldar Craftworlds can make, but not all of them. The major craftworlds that still have a culture of making the super heavy tanks and such, and haven't lost the arts, can make these things... the minor craftworlds? Maybe not. Regardless, there are probably minor improvements possible on how far away from a True gate they can stray before not being able to get into the webway at/near that gate. As far as whether Eldar would want a joint project in making more of these or improving the existing ones... I would say it depends on if they See a very, very, very positive outcome for doing this.

Next, there are the human webway gates. Or Gate. The Astronomicon is a human-made webway gate, like the big Old Ones type, and it connects to a Human made extension of the Webway. However, the defensive parts of the webway weren't near as good as the Old Ones parts... requiring an Alpha or Alpha+ Psyker to sit on the Golden Throne to prevent these parts from being overrun with demons, for humans to use it. Currently, this part of the webway is entirely overrun... but the gate part, the Golden Throne part, is still defended... by the Emperor. Should he die, likely demons would pour out of the gate... but this, as far as I know, is the only Canon example of anyone other than the Old Ones making one of the big gates, and the only example of anyone other than the Old Ones making a part of the Webway. This needed psychics and Psychoplastic materials to make.


Did The Culture get an effector scan of the Astronomicon?

[Gavinfoxx]

Now... I don't 100% know if that thing on minor/major disparity on the Webway gates is completely TRUE or not... but it fits the canon I know. The idea is that you can't use the Webway to go anywhere. If you could build a gate anywhere with no problem whatsoever and no restrictions at all, you WOULD be able to use it to go anywhere... and you can't! The Webway goes to particular places, that's always been a feature. But it definitely fits the data I have that the ones the Eldar can actually BUILD have limitations.

[jseah]

Did The Culture get an effector scan of the Astronomicon?

They don't have an effector scan of it. Just a nanobot one. They do know it is mostly warp-based.

Nevertheless, the Culture would be confident that if the Eldar would teach them, they could pick up the basics of warp engineering fairly quickly (how hard could it be to a Mind? =P).
And think they could out-do the Eldar at it shortly after, but the Culture aren't going to mention that and the Eldar would just think the Culture are overconfident.

I was in fact, talking about reverse engineering the Big gates. The small portable ones would be a first step to understanding the warp and its mechanics, the big ones would be for afterwards.

[Gavinfoxx]

Weellll.... regardless how much theoretical information about that sort of thing you have... you still need Psykers to apply it! Psychoplastic materials necessary and all. But if The Culture dangles the fruit of them being able to make the Big, Stable, Old Ones style gates (cause, after all, there are at least places in the Webway where the Webway WOULD go to... except the Old One's gate got blown up from the outside, you know?? But the Webway part of it is still fine), than they very well might jump. It would need a LOT of divination on the topic, of course... but The Eldar probably don't know if they were ever able to make those big gates or not. They have lost too much history to know if they ever managed it... they might have, they might not have.

[Gavinfoxx]

The real trick, of course... is repairing damaged parts of the Webway, or building new parts of the Webway!

[jseah]

Weellll.... regardless how much theoretical information about that sort of thing you have... you still need Psykers to apply it! Psychoplastic materials necessary and all. But if The Culture dangles the fruit of them being able to make the Big, Stable, Old Ones style gates (cause, after all, there are at least places in the Webway where the Webway WOULD go to... except the Old One's gate got blown up from the outside, you know?? But the Webway part of it is still fine), than they very well might jump. It would need a LOT of divination on the topic, of course... but The Eldar probably don't know if they were ever able to make those big gates or not. They have lost too much history to know if they ever managed it... they might have, they might not have.

Or more like, this is one of the more safer bets the Culture has for getting a wedge into learning about the Warp. It doesn't matter if the Eldar get to be able to build more webway or even extend the network and the Culture can't, the Culture don't really want to use it for transport anyway (see the last part of the Dark Eldar bit).

The point for the Culture is that the Warp is a big scary place where monsters (like Chaos) live. They don't understand how it works, apart from a uselessly general theory, can't use it, can barely defend against it and are enemies with the Chaos gods. Plus their enemies just started to react to their movements, so things just got a whole lot more urgent.
Right now, the Dark Eldar, reprehensible as they are, are just small beans next to Chaos; the Culture are only so interested in them because they use psychic weapons and materials (and the webway) and thus can possibly help the Culture understand the Warp.

And if it helps the Eldar, who are still their closest "ally" (although the Tau are closer, they're also useless) and staunch enemies of Chaos as well as being more or less uncorruptible by Chaos, then all the better.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember wayyyy back in the day where Eldar mostly want to get better at the things that they are already good at? And they mostly want to have the same lifestyle and don't really want to change the way they do things?

I would put this solidly in that category. Improving their mastery and understanding of the Webway is a huuuuge carrot for Eldar. It might -- just might -- be enough of a carrot for them to actually go for this, and share some of the info on bonesinging, being a psyker, the webway. MAYBE. It'd be like prying teeth -- but if the Farseers saw a huuuge benefit for their craftworld in doing this, they would maybe do this thing that is very alien and uncomfortable to them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have we decided what happens when a human or Eldar like Organic (or even a machine that thinks like a human) looks at the walls of the Webway with sensors that are too powerful? Remember that part in the Path of the Warrior where it was a bad idea to look at the wall of the webway with a sensor?

Also remember that the Dark Eldar use fewer psychic stuff than the normal Eldar! Much of their psychic capability is atrophied, so they use more normal materials than the Craftworld Eldar do (though they still use some psychic stuff).


Also, if you want a more intelligent drone without access to Hyperspace... make a bigger drone! Seriously, a drone the size of a Falcon Grav Tank would be fine for most parts of the Webway...

[jseah]

Also remember that the Dark Eldar use fewer psychic stuff than the normal Eldar! Much of their psychic capability is atrophied, so they use more normal materials than the Craftworld Eldar do (though they still use some psychic stuff).

They understand their psychic stuff though. That's still better than nothing. (and the IoM don't count)

Remember wayyyy back in the day where Eldar mostly want to get better at the things that they are already good at? And they mostly want to have the same lifestyle and don't really want to change the way they do things?

I would put this solidly in that category. Improving their mastery and understanding of the Webway is a huuuuge carrot for Eldar. It might -- just might -- be enough of a carrot for them to actually go for this, and share some of the info on bonesinging, being a psyker, the webway. MAYBE. It'd be like prying teeth -- but if the Farseers saw a huuuge benefit for their craftworld in doing this, they would maybe do this thing that is very alien and uncomfortable to them.

Provided, of course, that the Culture can demonstrate that the joint science project is likely to suceed. No point doing this for a failure.

Perhaps the Eldar might tell the Culture to reverse engineer some other Warp device on their own first (basic principles of a Gellar Field projector might be a good target), and then come back to talk about it.
Or... hmm... The Eldar ask the Culture to reverse engineer the Sororitas Faith? =D Is there a way to make that work?

Also, they're obviously not going to reverse engineer Eldar gates. The Big Gates that will get taken to bits and analyzed are obviously going to be Dark Eldar held gates, but I don't see any possible objections to that on either side. (Dark Eldar objections... don't really matter; with the Culture holding the realspace side of the gate, the Eldar and Contact forces can retreat through the gate to safety)

[Gavinfoxx]

Uhm... The Faith stuff, doesn't exactly work the same way as most Warp stuff. There is a Warp aspect to it, but the mechanism isn't as obvious as some of the Warp / 'it takes a psyker to make this or is designed to be used by a psyker' stuff. Understanding various warp-charged tech -- and there is quite a lot of Warp-charged tech all over the galaxy, including 'long lost Xenos' stuff, human stuff, Eldar stuff, etc. etc.

Hell... why not have a non chaos based, non-sanctioned human Psyker have taken some information on the Culture from the mind of some high ranking Imperial... and realized that contacting them is the best way to not get taken in by the Black Ships?

But sure, the Eldar can give them a bunch of homework. "Understand these non-Eldar psychic devices, there are examples scattered around this part of galaxy, and then come back to us and we can talk. We don't want to work with neophytes" is plausible... but, again, if the Farseers say to work with them, that is exactly what will happen.

[Gavinfoxx]

And make no mistake, there are a LOT of psychic tech and warp devices all over the galaxy... from a huge number of races (many extinct) as well...

[jseah]

And make no mistake, there are a LOT of psychic tech and warp devices all over the galaxy... from a huge number of races (many extinct) as well...

Um... too late? =P I have already sort of made that mistake.

Are there any examples of what psychic devices normally do? Or do I just make up stuff...

[Gavinfoxx]

Um... too late? =P I have already sort of made that mistake.

Are there any examples of what psychic devices normally do? Or do I just make up stuff...

Generally, have a component that is designed to be powered by a psyker. Or have a component that is designed to be noticed by a psyker. Or to expand the powers of a psyker. Or be used by a psyker, channeling their energy somehow. Or to store psychic energy or something. Or to be imprinted by a psyker. Or that requires a psyker in the creation of it. Or interacts with the Warp in some way, like making a rift or a vortex or even a minor change like a ripple in the Warp. The Culture has probably noticed a lot of these things, but never realized that they had anything special to do with the Warp! There is a ton of this stuff that is, in some minor way, psychically relevant... lots of minor ancient artifacts of various sorts.

I'm sure people will help find a complete list! I will be editing items into this post as I think of them.


Force Weapons (designed for a Psyker to power them, both Eldar and Human versions)
Psychic Hood (designed protect against enemy psykers for Astartes Librarians. The Eldar similar item is the Ghosthelm)
Psychic Wards (there are both Eldar and Human versions)
Psy-Jammers
Psycho-Reactive woods and metals and crystals and materials found in nature
Drugs that interact with Psykers

Anyway, this is a good list of equipment (from the RPG's) in general. Just go to each page, unhide the cells, and look for the phrase 'psy'. Then look up those items elsewhere... this is human-centric, of course, but if The Culture has an understanding of the construction Human items that have something to do with psykers, that means that they aren't rank amateurs!

http://www.mediafire.com/?4b9x7aqq9avrjz5

[Gavinfoxx]

What I am saying is... The Culture has probably interacted with a ton of Psychic stuff... scanned a bunch, but hasn't realized that those are psychic devices. They might see them as cultural artifacts or art or just 'some crystals that grow there' or whatever... but if they know in general that this device is designed to be psychically resonant, or is harvested for that, or whatever... that means they might be able to take a second look, you know??

It'd be just like the Eldar to say, 'In this list of several hundred technologies, materials, and animals and creatures that are found in this part of the Galaxy, there is between three and ten items on this list that have nothing whatsoever to do with Psykers, Psychic Energy, and The Warp. As soon as you understand these items well enough to explain each and every one of them and why they are on this list, and say which of the between three and ten items have nothing to do with psychic power, then you can come talk to us about this project.'

(And of course, they would expect The Culture to be back in a century or two...)

Hell, 'here is a list of things that mostly have to do with psychic power, and can't on their own cause huge problems with bringing things from the Warp into the Real when poked with a stick, and are fairly safe to experiment with' would be a huge boon to The Culture... simply getting a lot of those things, and some of their most psychically sensitive people, and a bunch of sensors all in the same place would be profoundly useful!

Also, have you read this page on Lexicanum? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment

I would guess that 'an average Eldar' is probably Epsilon, and 'an average Dark Eldar' is maybe 'Kappa'. The Average Tau is, well. Tau. Anyway, I would expect that it would soon become En Vogue for people in The Culture to take the various tests and see what they count as... no doubt, that some people might be surprised to find themselves as potential psykers! Even if they are potentially powerful psykers, they won't have developed psychic abilities in the short time they have been in this Galaxy where it is possible...


Also, um.. Jseah?

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co...verything.html