afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[afroakuma]

Wasn't layer 666 the realm of Kali? I think that's the deepest abyssal layer I can think of.

Kali's realm is 643: Caverns of the Skull. She had an old realm on the 500th layer that she must have moved out of.

[willpell]

The aberration type includes things such as aliens, survivors from a previous multiverse, time-travellers from the future, deep-sea creatures and haywire magical experiments.

And beholders, who are the creations of a god that dwells in the Abyss, but AFAIK there's no source for where the Great Mother came from. (Beholders are weird IMO; they're the only aberration I can think of which "feels magical", whereas the others either have an alien vibe, coming from other times or parallel universes and seeming more science-fictioney, or else they were created by wizards but you could just as easily say they were created by mad scientists and it wouldn't change anything. I can't think of another terribly famous example of an aberration that has as purely a "fantasy vibe" as the Eye Tyrants.)

Do you know of an answer for that one, Akuma? Is there any origin for the Great Mother beyond the basic "coalesced out of Chaos at the beginning of time" that applies to any other Abyssal native?

[afroakuma]

Is there any origin for the Great Mother beyond the basic "coalesced out of Chaos at the beginning of time" that applies to any other Abyssal native?

Nope. The Great Mother's most likely origin is as an obyrith-turned-divinity; she's heavily associated with the Abyss and the breeding of demons and other abominations. Her first progeny appear to have been a race of demons that predated the tanar'ri, so she's pretty old and fits the characteristics.

[willpell]

Her first progeny appear to have been a race of demons that predated the tanar'ri,

Hm. Are those detailed anywhere? I guess that would make the beholders Version 2.0 then. Does that mean their mutual xenophobia is something she instilled in them, so they'd winnow themselves down to what she considered best?

[afroakuma]

Hm. Are those detailed anywhere?

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

I guess that would make the beholders Version 2.0 then.

Not really. More like... different product line.

Does that mean their mutual xenophobia is something she instilled in them, so they'd winnow themselves down to what she considered best?

She must be in some fashion responsible, but it certainly wasn't her intent. Beholder psychology has little to do with the Great Mother's ludicrous mindset; much of it comes from their experiences on the mortal realm and is colored by the designs of the hive mothers. The xenophobia is traced to a myth of the first beholder, Kzamnal, who it is said had the ideal beholder form. Each beholder holds that its line of descent is the true line of Kzamnal and that all others are descended from traitors who defied their father's purity by spawning deviants that did not match his perfect form.

[Lord_Gareth]

This is a mystery.

First off, the Astral Plane is not a plane. It's ''something else''. It should not exist, and sort of does not exist as there is just about nothing there. But there is no word for ''non-plane'', so everyone just says it's a plane.

Next, gods are not meant to ''die''. As gods are the greatest powers of the multiverse, then they should exist forever. But gods do die. So where does the corpse of an impossible being that is impossibly killed go? The Astral should not exist non plane.

But the 'why' is a mystery.

Got any evidence or sources on this? Especially on the 'gods are the greatest powers in the multiverse' thing, since there's significant evidence AGAINST that idea.

[afroakuma]

Got any evidence or sources on this? Especially on the 'gods are the greatest powers in the multiverse' thing, since there's significant evidence AGAINST that idea.

That post is substantially incorrect and should not be taken as fact.

[123456789blaaa]

Are the any demon lords besides Orcus that are tied in with the undead? Are there any layers of the abyss that are tied in with the undead besides Thanatos?

[Eldan]

Are the any demon lords besides Orcus that are tied in with the undead? Are there any layers of the abyss that are tied in with the undead besides Thanatos?

Let's see. Off the top of my head, there's the Doresain, King of Ghouls, a former vassal of orcus, who has his own layer.

From Wiki, also Kanchelsis, god of vampires.

[afroakuma]

Are the any demon lords besides Orcus that are tied in with the undead?

Not many; undeath in general is his focus. There are a few, however...

• Thralhavoc the Shadowmaster concerns himself with undead shadows
• Zivorgian, Lady of Ripe Carrion, is concerned with corpses and ghouls
• Zuregurex, Lord of the Drowned Dead, concerns himself with some aquatic undead.

Are there any layers of the abyss that are tied in with the undead besides Thanatos?

Oh, plenty. Thanatos is just the only really significant/well-known layer tied to the undead.

Doresain, Kanchelsis

Those are gods, not demon lords.

[123456789blaaa]

Those are gods, not demon lords.

What exactly is the definition of "demon lord?".

EDIT: Also, are there any demon lords/abyssal layers tied in with the far realm in some way?

[Eldan]

Well, yes, they are gods. But their layers would be undead-themed.

[afroakuma]

What exactly is the definition of "demon lord?".

Demon lords are outsiders of some unique nature who are chaotic evil, have a demonic essence (chaotic evil entities born of Carceri or Pandemonium fail in this respect, though they could become naturalized), and are attuned to the Abyss itself in a fashion that reinforces their existence by tying it to the plane.

Demon princes are a cut above, and must have rulership over at least one layer of the Abyss.

Granted, these are both self-appointed titles; the Abyss doesn't believe in structure and hierarchy. However, the power of belief is strong on the planes, and those claiming such a title without backing it up with power and will often find the trappings of "office" more than a little lacking.

Thus, while some demon lords/princes are gods, most gods who reside in the Abyss are not demon lords/princes. Imposition of divine power over a layer is different from the connection that a lord/prince has with the Abyss itself.

EDIT: Also, are there any demon lords/abyssal layers tied in with the far realm in some way?

Not canonically.

[Menteith]

How powerful is the Grand Sultan of the City of Brass, and what specific beings are on friendly terms with it?

[Arcanist]

How powerful is the Grand Sultan of the City of Brass, and what specific beings are on friendly terms with it?

Connected question: What is the city of brass and where can I find it (Sourcebook wise).

[Menteith]

Connected question: What is the city of brass and where can I find it (Sourcebook wise).

DMG p156. It's the capital city of the Efreet, and is on good terms with many Devils, as I understand. However, given that the ruler of the Efreet could grant wishes to individuals pretty much at will, it seems that they could wield a disproportionally large amount of power in fiendish politics, and I was hoping there was more detail available.

[afroakuma]

How powerful is the Grand Sultan of the City of Brass, and what specific beings are on friendly terms with it?

Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazen is immensely powerful; he possesses vast riches (which is good as he's a fierce and unsuccessful gambler) and a coterie of hundreds of servants and hangers-on. The Sultan has fundamental ties to the City of Brass and several powerful magical abilities arising from that link; most notably, he commands the great power that restraints the fires of the plane from destroying the city, and can dismiss such protection at a whim.

The Sultan is attended by ambassadors from other realms; the salamander nobles have an ambassador to the Sultan, as do the baatezu (and many Lords of the Nine, individually). Ambassadors of the other genie races are occasionally present, but they find the City tremendously uncomfortable despite its protected nature. He keeps two beloved pets - nightmares, who run in the races for him - and a large harem.

Connected question: What is the city of brass and where can I find it (Sourcebook wise).

Manual of the Planes has it as well.

However, given that the ruler of the Efreet could grant wishes to individuals pretty much at will, it seems that they could wield a disproportionally large amount of power in fiendish politics, and I was hoping there was more detail available.

Wish remains a limited effect, even more so when genies wield it. Remember, firstly, that they cannot perform wishes for themselves, so working as a wish delivery service carries a great deal of risk. You won't see many efreet amid the baatezu armies of the Blood War, ready to dole out reality-altering battle advantage. Wish also has very limited ability to alter the past or the future; only the present can truly be altered.

That which efreet work with their power is subject to being created of them; magic items made by efreet work on the Planes as though originating from an Inner Plane, with all the snags and complexities that can arise from that. The Sultan has banned efreet from granting devils wishes for riches and valuables after the baatezu's doing so drained his own coffers - wish takes the path of least resistance when working to accomplish its goal, after all, and isn't above taking "I want a brand-new magical sword, newly created, not brought from anywhere else or anyone else's possession" and rendering it as "I want a brand-new magical sword, newly created, not brought from anywhere else or anyone else's possession." (It doesn't help that the baatezu subsequently decimated the City of Brass' economy with the wished-up treasure).

In general, the alliance of baatezu and efreet is not one based around wish, but instead about similar worldview and strategic advantage. The spell really isn't all-powerful anyway, so it's not like Asmodeus has that much use for it.

[Lord_Gareth]

So, here's one I was thinking of earlier: how much does Limbo and/or the Abyss care about reality? Let us say there's some catastrophic event happening that threatens to annihilate all, or most, of the Great Wheel (a tear into the Far Realm opening at a dangerous pace, perhaps?). Do major factions of those two planes give enough of a damn to set aside their problems and stop it, or do they just let reality burn?

[afroakuma]

So, here's one I was thinking of earlier: how much does Limbo and/or the Abyss care about reality? Let us say there's some catastrophic event happening that threatens to annihilate all, or most, of the Great Wheel (a tear into the Far Realm opening at a dangerous pace, perhaps?). Do major factions of those two planes give enough of a damn to set aside their problems and stop it, or do they just let reality burn?

The major players of the Abyss have a demonstrated (though infinitely rare) capacity to band together when they feel they have cause. They've even worked alongside eladrins when it's really been relevant.

Limbo... is trickier. Ssendam and Ygorl aren't idiots, and the slaad have a... let's call it a passable instinct toward the preservation of their own unique brand of chaos. Still, when reality's unraveling, slaad always seem to be at the front lines of the string-pulling brigade.

[Lord_Gareth]

If, for any reason, Her Serenity were to die or abandon Sigil without bothering to inform anyone of this fact:

- How long would it take a major faction to notice?

- Who do you feel would emerge on top of the resulting factional war?

Additionally:

- If Mephistopheles were to achieve godhood (either on purpose or because his cult(s) reach some critical worship mass) would he still be the Duke of the Eighth Hell? If not, who would most covet his vacated position? Can a god even SERVE on the Dark Eight?

[afroakuma]

If, for any reason

No.

- If Mephistopheles were to achieve godhood (either on purpose or because his cult(s) reach some critical worship mass) would he still be the Duke of the Eighth Hell?

That's not really up to him.

If not, who would most covet his vacated position?

Baalzebul.

Can a god even SERVE on the Dark Eight?

No, but then, the Dark Eight is the council of pit fiend generals of the Blood War.

[Mystra]

Got any evidence or sources on this? Especially on the 'gods are the greatest powers in the multiverse' thing, since there's significant evidence AGAINST that idea.

That post is substantially incorrect and should not be taken as fact.

The Astral being a nonspacial nonplane comes from Planescape, most notably for example, The Guide to the Astral Plane book.

And why would you think the gods are not the greatest powers in the multiverse? What 'evidence' would you say makes gods not so great? What would you count as more powerful then the gods?

[enderlord99]

The Astral being a nonspacial nonplane comes from Planescape, most notably for example, The Guide to the Astral Plane book.

I have a feeling that's non-canon.

And why would you think the gods are not the greatest powers in the multiverse? What 'evidence' would you say makes gods not so great? What would you count as more powerful then the gods?

The Lady of Pain. Y'know, from Sigil.

[afroakuma]

The Astral being a nonspacial nonplane comes from Planescape, most notably for example, The Guide to the Astral Plane book.

Which is not the best of canonical sources in any event, being written by an idiot. Its paucity of consistency and lack of serious commitment to a throwaway conceit is tragic. Nevertheless, if it ever had anything worthwhile to say, it's no longer accurate.

For one thing, Planescape is no longer the final word. The multiverse shifted. There's a reason elementals can now travel onto the Astral Plane. It no longer affects magic in the same way it once did. The Astral Plane is most definitely a plane. It's also spatial, although infinite, and no longer defined purely by perception.

And why would you think the gods are not the greatest powers in the multiverse? What 'evidence' would you say makes gods not so great? What would you count as more powerful then the gods?

You need some evidence?

• Lady of Pain
• Spire
• Hinterlands
• Faith starvation
• Limited realms
• Limited perceptions
• Seals of Binding
• Pandorym itself

There are plenty of indicators to the limits of divinity on the Planes.

I invite you to ask questions, as always, but I'm not interested in descending into debate.

[Mystra]

I have a feeling that's non-canon.

Well, Planescape is canon, as is The Guide to the Astral Plane. Both the DMG and the Manual of the Planes talk about how the Astral is ''the space between the planes''.

The Lady of Pain. Y'know, from Sigil.

The Lady of Pain just rules a city, that does not make her all that powerful.

[afroakuma]

The Lady of Pain just rules a city, that does not make her all that powerful.

I'm going to leave you here with this dead greater power and let the two of you talk about that for a while.

Moving on; I'm still open for questions.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm going to leave you here with this dead greater power and let the two of you talk about that for a while.

Moving on; I'm still open for questions.

Do the deaths of gods leave long-lasting fallout in the local area the way great and terrible acts of evil do? What about the deaths of 'mere' avatars?

[afroakuma]

Do the deaths of gods leave long-lasting fallout in the local area the way great and terrible acts of evil do? What about the deaths of 'mere' avatars?

That's more of a Prime Material thing; on the Planes, fallout tends to be quite literally "fall out," what with the plunging into the Astral thing.

Avatars being destroyed can definitely mark the Material Plane in ways that will last for quite some time. As would be expected, it depends on the power of the god, the power of the avatar and the nature of the god that sent it.

[Lord_Gareth]

That's more of a Prime Material thing; on the Planes, fallout tends to be quite literally "fall out," what with the plunging into the Astral thing.

Avatars being destroyed can definitely mark the Material Plane in ways that will last for quite some time. As would be expected, it depends on the power of the god, the power of the avatar and the nature of the god that sent it.

Do you happen to have any canonical examples of this effect? I'm not looking for an encyclopedic listing or anything, just an idea of what it's like when the whole 'dead god' thing goes down.

[afroakuma]

Do you happen to have any canonical examples of this effect? I'm not looking for an encyclopedic listing or anything, just an idea of what it's like when the whole 'dead god' thing goes down.

Myrkul's avatar did a nasty bit of work to Waterdeep when he went boom... Bhaal's avatar tainted the Winding Water near where he died. Those are from the novels, of course.

For a canonical avatar-go-boom radius of effect, I'd need to do a bit of digging about in sourcebooks. Probably one of the timelines has it... they're fairly well-associated with the Realms, and it wouldn't surprise me to have a few in Greyhawk too.