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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Question: What is the Origin of the Plane of Shadow? In some conflicting stories (more specifically FR) the Plane originated as a Demiplane and slowly expanded outward as it was created by an Arcanist (no, not me...), however in others (Greyhawk) it always was. Can it be assumed that the Realm is older then Greyhawk in terms of age? (not publication date
    In the oldest times, Water and Fire met, and Air and Earth met, and where they clashed there were Steam and Dust. In those times, Positive and Negative met, and where they clashed there was Shadow.

    The Planes became more distant, giving way to a greater reality, a different order. Dust and Steam vanished, forming anew as quasielemental planes. Shadow, however, slipped into the Ether.

    Contained as it was, Shadow was a demiplane, enrobed in the shell only the Deep Ethereal could provide. It was the greatest of demiplanes, though, for it was barely containable as such. From behind the edge of the horizon, just beyond mortals' ability to see, Shadow waited in the Ethereal for visitors, travelers and explorers.

    When the fulcrum of the multiverse shook and the new order trembled, Shadow broke free, rushing through the Deep Ethereal like oil through water, rushing toward the Material Planes and enveloping them as it pushed its way out of its accidental prison. Still tied by a million tiny threads to the Ethereal, but supporting its independence with similar cords to the Astral, Shadow secured itself as a new Transitive Plane lurking at the borders of the Material Plane.

    For bonus points: How would you describe Shadowstuff? I've never actually seen any physical description of it (assuming you can even hold it with your hands) and have only heard that it was a big blob of darkness that appears almost alive (that last line concerns me on that note). No clue where I got this description.
    Have you ever seen Mary Poppins? There's a scene in which she turns billowing smoke from a chimney into a staircase. The nebulous edges of the smoke conceal what exactly is solid and what is just darkness, but the result is still a functioning stairway. Shadowstuff is much the same way. It is akin to the non-Newtonian fluid made from cornstarch and water, only airy. To brush it, it is a smoky nothing, but to squeeze it, it becomes solid. Another way to envision it is to picture long, thin strings of black/purple/grey silk. Hold them at one end, and you could pass your hand through the dangling ends as though cutting through a silky gauze. Give it a twist, though - braid it, in the case of the strings - and it becomes both solid and quite firmly strong.

    In any event, shadowstuff has that nebulous, vaguely smoky quality to it. In color it ranges from a deep black to a dark purple hue to a dank, foggy gray. In texture it's a bit cool to the touch - even if you aren't "touching" it - and soft but firm, like a velvet coating over steel. It's odorless, tasteless and isn't quite where you expect it to be - usually 1-20 mm deeper in than where it looks like it is, depending on the amount and the consistency.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    New questions have occurred to me, though I don't know if they belong properly here... It is more about Spelljammer than Planescape at any rate. Anyways, consider the Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston. The way I read Spelljammer, and that was a long time ago, I remember Crystal Spheres being somewhat like winter glass balls, floating in a sea of Phlogiston. But were the borders on the Crystal Sphere "hard"? Put in other words, if you kept distancing yourself from Oerth and further into Greyspace, would you eventually bump into a physical, invisible wall? Or would you keep on going unless you knew how to exit that Crystal Sphere? And now, the reason why this might be relevant to this thread, though it's merely speculation: if the latter were to happen, than wouldn't the Phlogiston be better thought of as some sort of "hyperspace", a "layer" to the Prime Material (however odd that would be!), or even a Transitive Plane that shortens travel time (Plane of Shadow, anyone?!?), instead of merely a part of the Prime Material?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    Thanks a lot, both of you! However confusing, these answers have been quite informative!
    Ahh, it's a confusing subject. Hence the thread.

    EDIT: New questions have occurred to me, though I don't know if they belong properly here... It is more about Spelljammer than Planescape at any rate. Anyways, consider the Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston. The way I read Spelljammer, and that was a long time ago, I remember Crystal Spheres being somewhat like winter glass balls, floating in a sea of Phlogiston. But were the borders on the Crystal Sphere "hard"? Put in other words, if you kept distancing yourself from Oerth and further into Greyspace, would you eventually bump into a physical, invisible wall? Or would you keep on going unless you knew how to exit that Crystal Sphere?
    Yup. They're hard. You go bump. Or ding, as the case may be. Tink. Probably tink.

    And now, the reason why this might be relevant to this thread, though it's merely speculation: if the latter were to happen, than wouldn't the Phlogiston be better thought of as some sort of "hyperspace", a "layer" to the Prime Material (however odd that would be!), or even a Transitive Plane that shortens travel time (Plane of Shadow, anyone?!?), instead of merely a part of the Prime Material?
    The latter didn't, but yes, some people have speculated that the phlogiston should be seen as a Transitive Plane. I see it as a component of the Material Plane.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Thanks again for the answers, Afroakuma! I've been considering using Planescape's cosmology for my 3.5/PF games, but I wanted to try and fit it with 3.5's base cosmology as best as possible. Shadow always stroke me as a hard nut to crack, being a demiplane back in 2E and promoted to full transitive plane in 3E. But tying up the Shadow with the Phlogiston not only has a flavor of "backwards compatibility", it also works to bring Spelljammer to the fold. Alas, to work the way I envisioned it, I'd have to hammer Spelljammer and change the way it worked a little bit, since the bit I remembered about the winter glass balls was really real. Not a huge problem by any accounts, but it doesn't hurt to try and find a better way.

    Also, by fitting Shadow that way, I couldn't find space for a Plane of Faerie. I wanted to do something like MoP's Spirit World crossed with 4E's Feywild, but then I'd have to find space for yet another transitive plane. ...Ack, shouldn't have read 4E material

    (Also, sorry for double posting, I imagined you would miss my edit, but boy, are you fast noticing changes!)
    Last edited by Larkas; 2012-12-29 at 11:12 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    Thanks again for the answers, Afroakuma! I've been considering using Planescape's cosmology for my 3.5/PF games, but I wanted to try and fit it with 3.5's base cosmology as best as possible. Shadow always stroke me as a hard nut to crack, being a demiplane back in 2E and promoted to full transitive plane in 3E. But tying up the Shadow with the Phlogiston not only has a flavor of "backwards compatibility", it also works to bring Spelljammer to the fold. Alas, to work the way I envisioned it, I'd have to hammer Spelljammer and change the way it worked a little bit, since the bit I remembered about the winter glass balls was really real. Not a huge problem by any accounts, but it doesn't hurt to try and find a better way.

    Also, by fitting Shadow that way, I couldn't find space for a Plane of Faerie. I wanted to do something like MoP's Spirit World crossed with 4E's Feywild, but then I'd have to find space for yet another transitive plane. ...Ack, shouldn't have read 4E material )
    Planescape and Spelljammer do cooperate reasonably well. I used the fusion in my old Planejammer campaign. As for the idea of incorporating Faerie, you could just have it use a similar mechanism to Dream - a natural demiplane in the Deep Ethereal that is broadly accessible but lacks transitory capabilities. A sort of "moon" to the Material Plane's "Earth," if you will.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Can you bypass the whole spelljammer thing with Greater Teleport, since it has an infinite range?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Can you bypass the whole spelljammer thing with Greater Teleport, since it has an infinite range?
    I believe the crystal spheres interfere with that. I'm quite certain the phlogiston does.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    How do the ranks of evil planar beings stack up against those of good? As in, how many planar races associated with the "nasty" planes have rough counterparts, but there varied nature always made it seem like there were more "species" associated with the evil planes then the good.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Do you believe in Mechanus Bot? What's your take on Mechanus being a living plane for a certain value of living?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokonic View Post
    How do the ranks of evil planar beings stack up against those of good? As in, how many planar races associated with the "nasty" planes have rough counterparts, but there varied nature always made it seem like there were more "species" associated with the evil planes then the good.
    Roughly, there's three big classes of good planar beings (lawful archons, neutral guardinals and chaotic eladrin) and three big classe of evil planar beings (lawful baatezu, neutral Yugoloth and chaotic Tanar'ri). So far, that's balanced, except wizards has published far more fiends than celestials.

    Then there's various minor fiends and celestials of all kinds. I'd say that overall, good has a bit of an edge, as it has another major class, the angels. The only thing evil has to compare to that are the Gehreleth, and they are a bit anemic compared to the likes of Planetars and Solars.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokonic View Post
    How do the ranks of evil planar beings stack up against those of good? As in, how many planar races associated with the "nasty" planes have rough counterparts, but there varied nature always made it seem like there were more "species" associated with the evil planes then the good.
    Well, I'll show you:

    On the side of good, you have the archons (LG), guardinals (NG) and eladrin (CG), with asuras (cG) on the side and aasimon/angels (xG) above the lot.

    On the side of evil, you have the baatezu (LE), yugoloths (NE) and tanar'ri (CE), with gehreleths (cE) on the side and nothing* below the lot.

    There are certainly fewer varieties of archon/guardinal/eladrin/asuras than there are types of baatezu/yugoloth/tanar'ri/gehreleth, but that's due to need and nature. Baatezu demand a strict and quite byzantine hierarchy, while archons can accept a simpler logical progression. Guardinals can accept roles, while yugoloths have internal struggles over theirs. Eladrin come in broad strokes and can unite as a group; tanar'ri have lots of individual definitions and would rather branch off into specificity. As for gehreleths, they're obsessed with the number three.

    So while there are fewer kinds of good exemplar than evil ones (and some are of course off the books), it's not due to some imbalance, but rather an inherent characteristic of good versus evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Do you believe in Mechanus Bot? What's your take on Mechanus being a living plane for a certain value of living?
    I don't think Mechanus is any more or less alive than any other Outer Plane. Take from that what you will. I was a part of the silliness that originally suggested Mechanus to be secretly the Ultimate Inevitable, though.

    *in my personal canon, there exists a class of evil beings, sathari/anathemas, who are the dark parallel of the angels. Fortunately, they show themselves only rarely and most of them are either sealed away awaiting the end of the Blood War or in service to some very conservative deities of evil.
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2012-12-30 at 12:35 AM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Hm. I wouldn't quite put the Asura as a planar race on the same level as the Gehreleth. There's only one kind, after all. Though I guess since they are fallen archons, you might call the 'leth fallen 'loths.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Hm. I wouldn't quite put the Asura as a planar race on the same level as the Gehreleth. There's only one kind, after all. Though I guess since they are fallen archons, you might call the 'leth fallen 'loths.
    Enough sources have listed them as a "celestial race" that I felt it appropriate. Also, there are only 10,000 'leths total, so...
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Planescape and Spelljammer do cooperate reasonably well. I used the fusion in my old Planejammer campaign. As for the idea of incorporating Faerie, you could just have it use a similar mechanism to Dream - a natural demiplane in the Deep Ethereal that is broadly accessible but lacks transitory capabilities. A sort of "moon" to the Material Plane's "Earth," if you will.
    Hmmm, I think my misconceptions can be born more out of not knowing the setting too well. It might pay to read the material more thoroughly, then. Back in the day, I was more concerned with "the awesome flying boats" than with the setting proper!

    EDIT: Something VERY interesting I just found: link.
    Last edited by Larkas; 2012-12-30 at 08:09 AM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Ah yes, I've seen that before.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Adding new planes to the cosmology is always fun. Planewalker had a very nice one which added four hidden layers to Arborea.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Saw that one too. Was it only four?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    What are the logistical problems in launching a planar raid/invasion - travel wise, that is? Not the specific ones like "How do I get all of these demons into one army," - more along the lines of how you cross the Planes to get where you're going in one unit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    What are the logistical problems in launching a planar raid/invasion - travel wise, that is? Not the specific ones like "How do I get all of these demons into one army," - more along the lines of how you cross the Planes to get where you're going in one unit.
    Finding or making a suitable gate is difficult, so using established planar pathways is typically required. These are usually well-known enough to be heavily guarded, or take routes not best suited to the mission at hand. More than a few fiendish armies have run strike teams across the Outlands.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Is it more common for Outsiders to choose to advance by hit dice, or by class level?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Is it more common for Outsiders to choose to advance by hit dice, or by class level?
    Hit Dice. characterlimit!
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Do you feel as though a Celestial of any stripe or variety would, if asked, choose to become the leader of a Prime Material society that requested such a service?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    They might, but they really shouldn't. Most wouldn't.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    They might, but they really shouldn't. Most wouldn't.
    Why would this be a bad idea?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Direct sacred influence is just as bad, in its own way, as direct profane influence. Celestials have different priorities than those they would be leading and an inability to be flexible in their thinking about how to go about things. Not to mention it would likely annoy other powers interested in the goings-on of the Prime...
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Also, Planescape usually gave limits to how and how long outsiders could visit other planes, especially the prime. Most can't go there at all unless summoned or called. Eladrin can go, but only as long as no one finds out that they are outsiders, so they usually take background roles.

    I could see an archon take a leadership role on the prime, if he found a way to stay and was really convinced to be better suited to the role than the mortals around him. Or an angel that was commanded by his diety to do so. I'd imagine that having a living representation of your god leading your nation would generate a lot of belief.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Also a great deal of conflict. If you're being that forward, others will want to be as well, and that escalates to holy war very quickly. Angels are generally very good at behaving themselves in their designated roles, and gods don't push them beyond that much of the time.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Many outsiders are immune to poison. How does such an enterprising being go forth and get drunk, considering that they are proof against conventional alcohol?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Apr 2008

    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    Most don't. On the other hand, most aren't poisoned by alcohol, having physiologies different from those of humans. So booze would work fine. Other recreational substances also exist - there are whole species of imp in the Hells that serve as drug sources for fiends.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Sep 2007

    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

    - Are Planetouched more prevalent on the Planes, or on the Prime?

    - It appears that many Outsiders with non-typical alignments (see: Falls-From-Grace) belong to planar Factions. Do the Factions generally cause or encourage such alignment shifts, or do these exceptional outsiders go seeking Factions because they have shifted alignment?

    - What might some of the effects of an extended convergence between an Outer Plane and the Ethereal Plane be?

    - Is it possible for a mortal to assume a prominent political position on the Outer Planes, such as a Duke of Hell, or a noble of the Court of Stars?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
    My extended homebrew sig

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