afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[Chilingsworth]

Grazz't and Pale Night have a rather exceptional relationship for demons, so don't dismiss it - oh, and UNLIKE Fierna and Belial, they're not basing it on incest either.

Maybe. (as for the incest, since Pale Night is incoporeal, how would that even work, barring ghostwalk-related spells and abilities? -- No need to answer that, afro.)

On the other hand, I remember reading somewhere that Grazz't is actually a "fallen" devil, am I misremembering, or is there some basis to that?

[LOTRfan]

I seem to recall that the whole Grazz't being a fallen devil/lawful demon (I forget which one) concept was introduced in 4e, and is not present in the fluff of any of the editions before that one. I may be wrong, though.

[afroakuma]

So, we've spoken before about how Grazz't is the son of Pale Night (the only son?)

No. Vucarik and Lupercio, as well as at least one daughter, Zivorgian.

and how he still thinks quite well of/loves his mother. However, I'm unclear on if the two have an alliance. Is the affection mutual? Do they trust each other? And if so, does that mean that any being or coalition that wishes to wage war on one of them must inevitably face down the other as well?

They don't have a real alliance; Pale Night is allied only with Baphomet. Grazz't visits her infrequently.

Grazz't and Pale Night have a rather exceptional relationship for demons, so don't dismiss it - oh, and UNLIKE Fierna and Belial, they're not basing it on incest either.

Which is pretty exceptional, given that Graz'zt is who he is.

On the other hand, I remember reading somewhere that Grazz't is actually a "fallen" devil, am I misremembering, or is there some basis to that?

Zero basis.

I seem to recall that the whole Grazz't being a fallen devil/lawful demon (I forget which one) concept was introduced in 4e, and is not present in the fluff of any of the editions before that one. I may be wrong, though.

4E has many fluff problems. Hence we're here in the 3.5 side, and let's not jump into any edition wars please.

[willpell]

I seem to remember a theory that put humans as the descendants of changelings who were themselves the descendants of doppelgangers. Their was one more shapeshifter before doppelganger but I can't remember what it was. I can only remember that it's name started with P. Do you have any idea what it could be? (it would have to be an even better shapeshifter than a doppelganger)

It was almost certainly the Phasm, which has 15 HD and is a much better shapeshifter than a Doppelganger. If you want to run with this theory, I recommend going one step further and saying that the Phasm descends from the Teratomorph, a 28-HD Gargantuan Ooze in the Monster Manual 2 (it's 3.0 so you'd have to adapt it, but comparing a 3.0 MM1's Phasm with the modern version might make that easier). The Teratomorph does not shapeshift, but it has the same general "boiling mass of undifferentiated matter" thing going on as the Phasm, so it wouldn't be an insanely huge stretch to say that Phasms were small Teratomorphs who managed to gain control over their unstable bodies, and have been crystallizing into smaller and solider bodies over the centuries.

In response to a question that asked why the daelkyr look like humans, Keith Baker said that the real question was...why do humans look so much like the daelkyr . Would you care to speculate on the answer?

I speculate that Keith Baker thinks he's funny....

[Chilingsworth]

Well, as an alternate ancestor of the phasm, there's the Protean (I think?) It's in the epic level handbook, though not in the SRD with the rest of the epic monsters there. It's kinda like the Phasm, but with more body horror and on steroids, BGH, and energy shots.

[willpell]

Well, as an alternate ancestor of the phasm, there's the Protean (I think?) It's in the epic level handbook, though not in the SRD with the rest of the epic monsters there. It's kinda like the Phasm, but with more body horror and on steroids, BGH, and energy shots.

It's in the book under the name "Hagunemnon (Protean)" for some reason, but yeah. Pretty yicky, not at all like the colorful phasm, but closer to the implied malevolence of a doppelganger.

[Chilingsworth]

It's in the book under the name "Hagunemnon (Protean)" for some reason, but yeah. Pretty yicky, not at all like the colorful phasm, but closer to the implied malevolence of a doppelganger.

Hmm, it is in the SRD as well, just didn't notice it. (gee, maybe I should get some sleep, eh?) In anycase, it seems to be similiar to a chaos beast, too. At least, it's destabalise form ability seems vaugely similiar.

[Eldan]

I have to ask:

Why the hate for the Oinoloth? I must admit, I don't know too much about him, but I don't remember any particularly gigantic incompetence.

[afroakuma]

It was almost certainly the Phasm

Well, as an alternate ancestor of the phasm, there's the Protean

Guys, come on, I said both of these things. Willpell, this is not the first time you've come swinging in after the fact with an answer I already gave. I don't want a reply, I'd just like to know that people aren't going to keep bringing old questions up at the end of the line to answer themselves.

And no, teratomorphs are not the ancestors of anything. They're very young, cosmically speaking.

I have to ask:

Why the hate for the Oinoloth? I must admit, I don't know too much about him, but I don't remember any particularly gigantic incompetence.

The Oinoloth tends to claim power that the rest of the race doesn't accord it. It enforces this power with the abilities of the office and the Siege Malicious, which in turn leaves its mark on the Oinoloth to highlight him as an aberration. The General of Gehenna is the figure most yugoloths look to as the champion and leader of the race (Bubonix, who likes to style himself the Overlord of Carceri, is not in the running). There's also bad blood thanks to the previous office-holder, a mutant who sold himself to the night hags for power and wielded an artifact loathsome (and valuable) to any fiend.

[willpell]

The Oinoloth tends to claim power that the rest of the race doesn't accord it. It enforces this power with the abilities of the office and the Siege Malicious, which in turn leaves its mark on the Oinoloth to highlight him as an aberration. The General of Gehenna is the figure most yugoloths look to as the champion and leader of the race.

I thought I remembered the MOTP section on Gehenna saying that the General is respected "exactly as far as his reach extends and no further". Which doesn't make it sound as though the Oinoloth is any different. (By the way, I don't know - is Oinoloth a title of office, or is he a distinct species of yugg like all the other "-loths"? And if so, is he the only member of that species? Is he perhaps attempting to become his race's first arch-fiend by experimenting with foreign power sources?)

Guys, come on, I said both of these things. Willpell, this is not the first time you've come swinging in after the fact with an answer I already gave.

In this case, I was trying to expand on your answer, and give the theory under discussion a bit more credence than you seemed willing to.

[afroakuma]

I thought I remembered the MOTP section on Gehenna saying that the General is respected "exactly as far as his reach extends and no further".

Nope. It says he rules (directly) to the limits of his reach, and that yugoloths elsewhere may act independently. Which is what one must expect of creatures of pure, scheming evil. However, he is respected, feared, answered to by any who enter his sphere of influence and - most importantly - is recognized by the 'loths themselves as their leader.

Which doesn't make it sound as though the Oinoloth is any different. (By the way, I don't know - is Oinoloth a title of office, or is he a distinct species of yugg like all the other "-loths"? And if so, is he the only member of that species? Is he perhaps attempting to become his race's first arch-fiend by experimenting with foreign power sources?)

Altraloths are the race's archfiends, to the extent that they have any. Oinoloth is a title derived from the first gloom of Hades, Oinos, where Khin-Oin is situated. The current Oinoloth is not an altraloth.

[Eldan]

One could perhaps also extend the title Archfiend to those Baerns that are still more or less active.

[afroakuma]

One could perhaps also extend the title Archfiend to those Baerns that are still more or less active.

Baernaloths don't actually have that degree of power, which is why they're not recognized as such. In many ways, the baernaloths did fill the role, but now the masters of the race are the masters of the planes of conflict (again, Bubonix hasn't mastered a thing, ignore him).

[Lord_Gareth]

I'd never heard of Pale Night's other (named) children - what's their story?

Would the political situation in the Abyss change significantly if Orcus managed to achieve true godhood? Would that put him out of the running for the title of Prince of Demonkind?

[Menteith]

How would one steal the Pact Primeval? Additionally, if successful, how difficult would it be to alter or destroy it even if was in your possession?

[Arcanist]

What is an Ancient Baatorian and why is it a bad idea to let them achieve adulthood?

[afroakuma]

I'd never heard of Pale Night's other (named) children - what's their story?

Lupercio, Baron of Sloth, rules the 128th layer of the Abyss, known as Slugbed. A capricious beast of alternating lassitude and manic energy, he is served and surrounded by shadow fiends.

Vucarik, Consort of Chains, rules Nethuria, the 651st layer of the Abyss. He is covered head to toe in rusting metal, and bears enchanted chains as his favored weapons. Vucarik wanders the Abyss and nearby planes at his leisure, preceded by the clanking of chains, and his horde tries to conscript those they encounter.

Rhyxali may or may not be a child of Pale Night; evidence is leaning toward yes. She is Princess of Shadow, ruling over her chosen from Shaddonon, the 49th layer.

Zivorgian, the Lady of Ripe Carrion, is a vulturesque, three-headed mockery of an angelic figure. Little is known about her.

Would the political situation in the Abyss change significantly if Orcus managed to achieve true godhood?

Ehh, marginally. It would put the other two on high alert, and it would change the dynamics of Lolth's interactions with the rest.

Would that put him out of the running for the title of Prince of Demonkind?

Yes and no. He wouldn't be able to gain the benefits of the title, nebulous as they are... but he could claim it (not by achieving godhood, but via some other act) and in doing so impose its powers on the rest in the sense of preventing them from having it.

[123456789blaaa]

Ehh, marginally. It would put the other two on high alert, and it would change the dynamics of Lolth's interactions with the rest.

Could you go into more detail on this? Why would him becoming a god put the other two on high alert? WHy and how would Loths interactions with the rest change?

Yes and no. He wouldn't be able to gain the benefits of the title, nebulous as they are... but he could claim it (not by achieving godhood, but via some other act) and in doing so impose its powers on the rest in the sense of preventing them from having it.

What exactly are the benefits of the title?

[afroakuma]

How would one steal the Pact Primeval?

Very carefully. There are only three copies, and the location of only one of them is known: Tabjari, the hidden fortress built specifically to protect it. Asmodeus' copy is guarded by a labyrinth of traps and a host of powerful mortal cultists, and the item itself is trapped in a gigantic ruby too large to physically pass through the doors. The vault itself is flooded with powerful wards and auras that are only reinforced by the energies spilling from the Pact.

Additionally, if successful, how difficult would it be to alter or destroy it even if was in your possession?

Altering the Pact would be functionally the same as destroying it. Whatever its actual content, the Pact is a powerful artifact of Law and would not be subject to any conventional alteration.

I should point out that even stealing the Pact would be an incredible act of Chaos, and a lot of powerful forces would know very quickly if that had happened, let alone if it were destroyed. Also, there are the two more copies, so removing any one alone won't break the Pact, whatever it may be.

What is an Ancient Baatorian and why is it a bad idea to let them achieve adulthood?

Ancient baatorians are the original inhabitants of Baator, who predated the baatezu, similar to how the obyriths predated the tanar'ri. Unlike the tanar'ri, though, baatezu are not the native form of souls that enter Hell. The baatezu are conquerors of a plane that doesn't truly serve them, and they worry about letting baatorians form anew without their knowledge.

Could you go into more detail on this? Why would him becoming a god put the other two on high alert? WHy and how would Loths interactions with the rest change?

Well, the other two are not gods. Orcus would have more power on the Material Plane to crush their cults, and more personal power to pressure his foes with.

Lolth has a special role among the preeminent lords of the Abyss, as she's one of their number in addition to being a goddess ("Demon Queen of Spiders"). As the only deity in the "gang," she's got special influence and a unique role in Abyssal politics, one that she'd start to feel crowded out of if there was suddenly a new god in town.

What exactly are the benefits of the title?

What part of "nebulous" don't you understand?

The only fairly well-established benefit of the title is that its "holder" is impossible for any demon to surpass in power. That doesn't mean there aren't ways to cheat around that, or that the concept of "power" itself is somehow defined with regard to this effect, or that the current Prince of Demons is invincible. Obox-ob lost the title to a surprise all-out attack from the Queen of Chaos, who was weaker than he.

[Eldan]

Hm. This makes me think.

Several of the dukes of hell are mentioned to have mortal cults of various sizes going on. What do you think would happen if one of them *really* got into the cultist game and got enough to become a minor deity? What would Asmodeus think of that?

[ShadowFireLance]

The Ancient Baatorians, Where Might one find fluff/Stats for those?

[afroakuma]

Hm. This makes me think.

♫ Eldan, I'm afraid you've been thinking...

♪ A dangerous pastime...

Several of the dukes of hell are mentioned to have mortal cults of various sizes going on. What do you think would happen if one of them *really* got into the cultist game and got enough to become a minor deity? What would Asmodeus think of that?

Are we talking dukes, or archdukes? I can't think of a duke with a cult of any significance at all.

Asmodeus would be... less than pleased... if one of the archdukes became a god, which is why he pressures them to direct worship through their cults toward himself or to Hell generally. Nonetheless, some of them skim off the top, particularly Mephistopheles. An archduke becoming a deity would certainly engender a war in Hell if he or she had ambitions to attack Asmodeus, and though the Lord Below would likely win that one, it could become rather ugly.

The Ancient Baatorians, Where Might one find fluff/Stats for those?

One might not. Fluff for ancient baatorians is very rare; stats all but nonexistent. You could go track down stats for a nupperibo, but that's about it. *waiting to see who says it, won't say what it is*

[enderlord99]

One might not. Fluff for ancient baatorians is very rare; stats all but nonexistent.

I have 3 questions:

1. You're a homebrewer, right?
   
2. Can you guess what my next question is going to be (before reading it)?
   
3. Could you make some fluff/stats for ancient baatorians?

[afroakuma]

I have 3 questions:

You're a homebrewer, right?

Theoretically.

Can you guess what my next question is going to be (before reading it)?

I can indeed! I am wise!

Now then, where's your third question?

[Arcanist]

Could you make some fluff/stats for ancient baatorians?

...

EDIT: Just throwing this out there, but after reading through all the Q&A of this thread I no longer trust any other source for planar knowledge, but AfroAkuma.

[Proud Tortoise]

How can Bytopia be counted as two infinite layers? It seems to me that it's one layer with a gravity change at the center.

[afroakuma]

Just throwing this out there, but after reading through all the Q&A of this thread I no longer trust any other source for planar knowledge, but AfroAkuma.

Well thank you for the compliment!

How can Bytopia be counted as two infinite layers? It seems to me that it's one layer with a gravity change at the center.

Planes have different rules for passing between layers; that's the rule for Bytopia. Bytopia is infinitely deep and infinitely two-dimensional, but there's an upward limiter. The plane also creates strange and unique pressures that keep the two layers distinct; just because you can fly doesn't mean you'll want to cross over in that fashion. The two layers are very distinct, and have magical properties to match.

[ShadowFireLance]

1)
Who in the Abyss Actually Has the largest army, Total?
(Counting Fiends, Cultists, And anything else)

2) Are their any NAMED Armies of the Abyss?

3) By Nuppibario, Please tell me you dont mean THIS?

Spoiler

Show

4) I 2nd that Fluff/Statting of the ancient Baatoraians.

[enderlord99]

I can indeed! I am wise!

Now then, where's your third question?

...That was almost as surreally hilarious as your Slaad impression. Almost.

[afroakuma]

1)
Who in the Abyss Actually Has the largest army, Total?
(Counting Fiends, Cultists, And anything else)

Well, technically that would be Obox-ob, but that's probably cheating.

I could also have said Kostchtchie, but that would also be cheating.

There does not appear to be an official answer; major contenders would include Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus and Pazuzu. In her time of power, the Queen of Chaos commanded by far and away the largest army of the Abyss.

2) Are their any NAMED Armies of the Abyss?

Ehh, some demon lords name battalions or legions, but given what they tend to do with their armies (bash them against other armies until there's nothing left) there's not really much point. Please don't ask for a list.

3) By Nuppibario, Please tell me you dont mean THIS?

I could tell you that, but it would be a lie.