afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[silverwolfer]

Look up planar shepherd :D


Astral skiffs, could they be used to transport an army from one point of the material plane, to another point through the astral plane?

[Chilingsworth]

Three things (but apparently, more than three questions) that have tended to confuse me, and are potentially relevant to some of my characters:

1: What happens to called outsiders that die away from their home planes? I know that the PHB says that they die for real, but I've seen other sources (notably the fiendish codex) that seem to contadict that. Does it vary between different types of outsiders/other called creatures (e.g. inevitables)?
Practical application: Would the trick of planar binding an outsider, forcing a service out of it, then killing it before it can escape (if needed, before the service is actually completed, but after you've gotten some use out of them) have any benefit? Such as denying them the chance to seek vengence on you afterwords?

2: How much of their experiences do summoned creatures remember?
Practical application: How much should a spellcaster worry about a summoned creature being able to report on his/her activites when it is returned its home plane? Examples: an evil wizard forcing some sort of celestial to do its dirty work being ratted out to the celestial's supperiors, a malconvoker's minions being interogated by their superiors for intel about his/her activities.

3: Is useage of souls worthwhile for mortals? I ask because the only way I know for a mortal to take a soul is the soul trap spell, which is ridiculously expensive to use considering the limited uses I know of for a soul. The only use I can think of offhand is to provide crafting xp, but a soul only provides 10xp for that purpose. Even at a minimum cost of 1000gp (for a one hitdie creature,) trap the soul is not an economical way to get souls if that is their only use.

[Answerer]

It's implied by Conjuration (Summoning) spells that the spells do not "yoink" a, say, a lion from Celestia to fight for you. Rather, it takes the "stuff" of the other planes (e.g. the Good-stuff of Celestia) and gives it the form of the creature you're summoning (e.g. a lion). This stuff basically dissipates formlessly when the spell ends or the creature is killed.

This is also the argument for the alignment descriptors on summoning spells: even if you never lose control of the creature, you've brought a little more Good/Evil/Law/Chaos into the world by using the spell.


Whether any of this is good, interesting, or meshes well with the existing Planescape fluff, I have no idea.

[AuraTwilight]

It's implied by Conjuration (Summoning) spells that the spells do not "yoink" a, say, a lion from Celestia to fight for you. Rather, it takes the "stuff" of the other planes (e.g. the Good-stuff of Celestia) and gives it the form of the creature you're summoning (e.g. a lion). This stuff basically dissipates formlessly when the spell ends or the creature is killed.

Where is this implied? The text in the Player's Handbook outright states that the 'creature' is coming from somewhere and goes back at the spell's end.

[Wrathof42]

What's up with the Infinite Staircase? More specifically while I've been able to find very good rules for traveling it in the Fiendish Codex, but for the life of me can't find much else.
1.How does one get on the staircase in the first place? Do you literally have to stumble through a door or find out the location of one somehow?
2.Who built(ds) it and why?
3.If it really leads to all the places it supposedly does, why isn't it used more often?

[afroakuma]

Astral skiffs, could they be used to transport an army from one point of the material plane, to another point through the astral plane?

I don't speak 4E, sorry.

Three things (but apparently, more than three questions) that have tended to confuse me, and are potentially relevant to some of my characters:

1: What happens to called outsiders that die away from their home planes? I know that the PHB says that they die for real, but I've seen other sources (notably the fiendish codex) that seem to contadict that. Does it vary between different types of outsiders/other called creatures (e.g. inevitables)?
Practical application: Would the trick of planar binding an outsider, forcing a service out of it, then killing it before it can escape (if needed, before the service is actually completed, but after you've gotten some use out of them) have any benefit? Such as denying them the chance to seek vengence on you afterwords?

Many types of fiend see their essences retreat to the Lower Planes to reform; this is typically a time-consuming process and usually results in a power drop, but most fiends would be willing to wait it out and would definitely nurse a grudge.

Many types of celestial are similarly "rescued" by the Upper Planes; unlike the Lower Planes, though, a celestial likely has many who would seek to avenge such a sin on hand.

Modrons, formians and inevitables do not reform; however, many formians can report back to their hives; all modrons provide their intellect to Primus; and inevitables that fail in a duty are replaced by an upgraded model.

Slaad go boom.

2: How much of their experiences do summoned creatures remember?
Practical application: How much should a spellcaster worry about a summoned creature being able to report on his/her activites when it is returned its home plane? Examples: an evil wizard forcing some sort of celestial to do its dirty work being ratted out to the celestial's supperiors, a malconvoker's minions being interogated by their superiors for intel about his/her activities.

Summoned creatures remember everything as though they were there.

3: Is useage of souls worthwhile for mortals? I ask because the only way I know for a mortal to take a soul is the soul trap spell, which is ridiculously expensive to use considering the limited uses I know of for a soul. The only use I can think of offhand is to provide crafting xp, but a soul only provides 10xp for that purpose. Even at a minimum cost of 1000gp (for a one hitdie creature,) trap the soul is not an economical way to get souls if that is their only use.

Depends what you plan to use it for. The practical uses of a soul are not typically Material Plane applications - you can't use it to concoct the perfect batch of kettle corn. The applications they have are potent and evil; you can use a larva to increase a spell's DC, and spell gems can be consumed for a big boost to smashing through spell resistance.

Seriously, 10 XP? Where did you get that figure from?

[silverwolfer]

I don't speak 4E, sorry.

That is from the planar handbook.....

[willpell]

Why is it that the corpses of gods seem to end up, inevitably, on the Astral Plane?

For that matter, why do gods HAVE corpses? Or physical forms of any sort? Shouldn't they be more, I dunno, immanent? (Unless of course the point of the game is to go kill them, I know some campaigns have done so, but personally I'd think ability to be killed is kind of contrary to counting as an actual god, outside of certain mythologies that explicitly allow for it.)

Also, I apologize if you're already answered this one, but what's your take on the metaphysical implications of making a sapient undead that's at least theoretically the same person as the corpse from a corpse of a person who is also currently alive in a different body? Just doesn't work? Similar to trying to bring back someone who isn't willing?

This is mostly an "ask your dm" but I'd say that if you make a Wight or Lich or something out of a body that's died, regardless of where the soul is, your new undead buddy has a mind which is "copied" from whatever was in the brain at time of death, but does not have a soul. That's just my opinion offhand, possibly not even the way I'd rule in a campaign...I'd have to think about it and it might depend a lot on the specifics.

• Avalon
• Discordia
• K'un Lun
• Nether
• Pangea
• Perdition
• Purgatory
• Sheol

What are these?

• Semi-Elemental Plane of Pumice

Whaaaat? (Not so much "what is it", this time, as "why is it" - ie who thought this was deserving of an entire plane? I'm beginning to see where the Ranch Dressing gag a few dozen strips ago came from.)

from the Rock of Bral.

Ees whaaa???

Astral skiffs, could they be used to transport an army from one point of the material plane, to another point through the astral plane?

More generally, what need does anyone have for a ship on the astral plane, given that they can just choose to fly around?

What's up with the Infinite Staircase?

You may be interested in this.

3.If it really leads to all the places it supposedly does, why isn't it used more often?

Unless it says otherwise in FC2, the big stumbling block to using the Staircase is that there's no reliable way of getting to it. It just randomly shows up sometimes; it won't be there the next time you revisit that place, and there's no known "call button". (Basically it's a plot device and shows up at the DM's whim.)

[enderlord99]

I don't speak 4E, sorry.

I do, and that wasn't it.

[Xervous]

page 33 of BoVD, "souls as power" says 10xp per soul. Must've been using rat souls or something.

Question: How many different documented shadow creatures are there? I'm having trouble finding ones beyond the elementals, shadows, shadow djinn, shadow mastiff, and Shadar kai

Question: It appears that there are very few cases to examine for beings ascending to godhood, how did vecna do it? How much of a following is required to "sustain" a god?

[afroakuma]

What's up with the Infinite Staircase? More specifically while I've been able to find very good rules for traveling it in the Fiendish Codex, but for the life of me can't find much else.
1.How does one get on the staircase in the first place? Do you literally have to stumble through a door or find out the location of one somehow?

Essentially. The doors are random, often appearing in abandoned, dark or disused places. It takes effort to track one down.

2.Who built(ds) it and why?

Unknown! It may have always been a part of the planes, a natural structure that inspired its earliest discoverers to become a part of its growth and development. The goddess Selune likes to take credit for being one of its patrons, but that's just because the Staircase grounds itself in her realm on nights with a full moon. It's certain that whoever or whatever built it, the lillends have claimed it wholeheartedly.

3.If it really leads to all the places it supposedly does, why isn't it used more often?

Well, firstly, it's horribly inconvenient for anyone with cargo to carry - being a staircase, and all that. You're also going to need a guide if you have a specific destination in mind; fortunately, there are a great many available.

Some people (read: fiends) are averse to being in the realm of the lillends, while others are annoyed at the inconsistency of it. It's still very heavily traveled, but there are other planar pathways (the Oceanus, the Styx, Yggdrasil, Olympus) with a great deal more utility for larger-scale trips.

[willpell]

Question: How many different documented shadow creatures are there? I'm having trouble finding ones beyond the elementals, shadows, shadow djinn, shadow mastiff, and Shadar kai

The Shadowcaster section of Tome of Magic offers a bunch of shadow-themed creatures, including an elemental and a djinn, as well as the Dark Creature template, a mild revamping of Shadow Creature from the Manual of the Planes. Not sure if a Shadesteel Golem counts. Doubtless there are others. IMC, I also rule that Nightshades are shadow-elemental rather than undead, though they can still be Turned.

Question: It appears that there are very few cases to examine for beings ascending to godhood, how did vecna do it? How much of a following is required to "sustain" a god?

If there was a reliable recipie, no matter how difficult, it would happen every other week. Figure that the methods are going to be different every time and always vanishingly rare. Whether a god needs anything from his followers varies from campaign to campaign; Deities and Demigods does a halfway-decent job of talking through some of the implications of yea or nay.

[afroakuma]

That is from the planar handbook.....

Is it? Wow. Web search gave me nothing but 4E results. Serves me right for not memorizing the player book.

So let's see... transport from the Material Plane? Almost certainly not. You'd have to be able to get the thing to the Astral, firstly, and if your gate is vertical then you need to propel it in somehow (man the oars!) If your gate is horizontal, you'll risk damage to the ship as it compensates for the transition between the gravity of the Material Plane and the motile force it needs on the Astral. And then of course, you need to procure a gate in the first place. No, I wouldn't consider this vehicle suitable for that purpose.

[afroakuma]

For that matter, why do gods HAVE corpses? Or physical forms of any sort? Shouldn't they be more, I dunno, immanent? (Unless of course the point of the game is to go kill them, I know some campaigns have done so, but personally I'd think ability to be killed is kind of contrary to counting as an actual god, outside of certain mythologies that explicitly allow for it.)

Gods in D&D can die from many factors; the chief threat to them is starvation of worship, which decreases their power and gradually erodes them until they fade away. Death by cosmic violence is much less common, but it's happened on a few occasions. There have also been special situations such as the Time of Troubles, in which contained divinities were made vulnerable on the mortal world, and the appearance of the Last Word, a power capable of destroying nearly anything.

What are these?

Planes of Cordance - hypothetical planes situated between true neutrality and pure alignment.

More generally, what need does anyone have for a ship on the astral plane, given that they can just choose to fly around?

Speed, direction, unified motion, cargo...

[afroakuma]

page 33 of BoVD, "souls as power" says 10xp per soul. Must've been using rat souls or something.

MONNNNNTEEEEEEEEE.

The book also lists pre-receptacled souls selling for 200 gp, though, so you can chalk that one up to someone not doing their homework.

Question: How many different documented shadow creatures are there? I'm having trouble finding ones beyond the elementals, shadows, shadow djinn, shadow mastiff, and Shadar kai

*cracks knuckles*

Okay, so, we have:

Shadowcloaks, darkweavers, shadow asps, your odd shadow giant, dark creatures, darkness pseudo-elementals, shadow elementals, khayal genies, shadesteel golems, nightshades, shadow creatures, shadow beasts, shadow eft, shadow jellies, shadow mastiffs, shadow spiders, skiurids, a few vasuthants and veserabs.

Those are only things from published WotC books and Dragon magazines pertaining to 3.X, but that should still be enough of a list to get you going.

Question: It appears that there are very few cases to examine for beings ascending to godhood, how did vecna do it? How much of a following is required to "sustain" a god?

Vecna accrued a ton of personal power, performed a lot of rituals and of course, carved his name across the world (figuratively). Even then, he was a pretty weak power until he stole some of Iuz's divinity.

[Lord_Gareth]

So, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft famously disrupt communication between a follower and their deity. Are there any other ways that this can happen? How can such a situation be rectified?

[afroakuma]

So, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft famously disrupt communication between a follower and their deity. Are there any other ways that this can happen? How can such a situation be rectified?

Of course there are. One of the most famous would be the effect that Pandorym's mind has on a world when it begins to wake, slowly choking divine magic and sealing a world away from the Planes.

As to how to rectify it: remove the obstruction.

[Lord_Gareth]

Do the various planar races even bother taking notice of organizations like the Knights of the Chalice (dedicated to slaying fiends), or are mortals 'beneath' such consideration?

[afroakuma]

Do the various planar races even bother taking notice of organizations like the Knights of the Chalice (dedicated to slaying fiends), or are mortals 'beneath' such consideration?

Some members of some races do. It's not like it's a racewide thing.

[Talderas]

That said, there are other Material Planes. They can be traveled to by entering the Deep Ethereal, or trekking into the secret routes in the Plane of Shadow.

The Ethereal, Shadow, and Astral planes can all be used as transit planes in some fashion. The Astral is obviously known for its link between planes yet you can also use the Ethereal and Shadow planes to travel great distances on the plane you are currently residing. The spells and abilities that permit this function on outer and inner planes.

Since other material planes can be reached via the Shadow or Ethereal planes, could inner (for the shadow) and outer planes also be reached in this manner, does each of the outer/inner planes have their own Shadow/Ethereal plane, or is there an "Outer" Shadow/Ethereal an "Inner" Shadow/Ethereal, and a "Material" Shadow Ethereal that permits travel between planes of the same category?

Would the Shadow or Ethereal planes permit travel to the Ordial plane?

What methods do you believe exist, beyond the Astral plane, to transition between planes and what restrictions do they have?

Does Outlands also block means of traveling that use the Shadow or Ethereal plane as well as methods that use the Astral?

I don't think Mechanus is any more or less alive than any other Outer Plane. Take from that what you will. I was a part of the silliness that originally suggested Mechanus to be secretly the Ultimate Inevitable, though.

Would that make Mechanus Unicron or Primus?

Their belief is mistaken. The original adventure featuring the Far Realm made exactly this point: that persons of sufficient power, foresight and knowledge were wrong. It's a Lovecraftian notion: the mortal mind cannot reasonably contend with what lies beyond the great rift.

Can an immortal mind contend with what lies beyond?

[Greenish]

Look up planar shepherd :D

Planar Shepherds are drawn from material plane races, and anyway originate from Eberron with it's non-standard cosmology.

[afroakuma]

The Ethereal, Shadow, and Astral planes can all be used as transit planes in some fashion. The Astral is obviously known for its link between planes yet you can also use the Ethereal and Shadow planes to travel great distances on the plane you are currently residing. The spells and abilities that permit this function on outer and inner planes.

Actually they don't, necessarily (Manual of the Planes p.46). Spells that use the Transitive Planes only function when cast in places that are coexistent with or coterminous with that Transitive Plane.

Since other material planes can be reached via the Shadow or Ethereal planes, could inner (for the shadow) and outer planes also be reached in this manner

Nope; of course, if you move through the Deep Ethereal to the Border of a different cosmology, you may find rifts there...

does each of the outer/inner planes have their own Shadow/Ethereal plane, or is there an "Outer" Shadow/Ethereal an "Inner" Shadow/Ethereal, and a "Material" Shadow Ethereal that permits travel between planes of the same category?

They do not have such links or planes at all.

Would the Shadow or Ethereal planes permit travel to the Ordial plane?

No.

What methods do you believe exist, beyond the Astral plane, to transition between planes and what restrictions do they have?

Portals exist that go directly from one plane to another, with no middle ground. These can be established with powerful magic (such as a gate spell) for short periods of time or amplified with mighty structures and eldritch components to become more static. Certain unique planes (Dream, Faerie) have special means of accessing them, while others (Temporal Prime) are difficult to access by any means whatsoever and a few (the Far Realm) are all but impossible.

Does Outlands also block means of traveling that use the Shadow or Ethereal plane as well as methods that use the Astral?

The Outlands is not coexistent with the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, so such means are inherently impossible save at rare coterminous points. Within 500 miles of the Spire, there are no coterminous points between the Outlands and any other plane.

Can an immortal mind contend with what lies beyond?

They never try; make of that what you will. Given what happened to Piscaethces, though, I'm inclined to say "not likely."

[Arcanist]

Vecna accrued a ton of personal power, performed a lot of rituals and of course, carved his name across the world (figuratively). Even then, he was a pretty weak power until he stole some of Iuz's divinity.

Actually there are many conflicting tales of Vecna's divinity . Some say that it was a gift from the Serpent, others say that he was simply born with the Divine Spark. Personally? My favorite is that during the age of his Empire he encouraged the worship of him from the citizens until it eventually became the norm, when the rest of the world refused to acknowledge him he simply forced the High Priest of several prominent churches to acknowledge him as a God and after a few centuries of worship and through death he attained Godhood.

When Vecna took Iuz's Divinity (absorbed him into him) his power was said to have doubled his already impressive divine might. After being ejected from Sigil in his scheme to rewrite reality Iuz was regurgitated by Vecns with A Large portion of his Divine power gone. Thus Vecna ascended from the ranks of Demigod to Lesser Deity.

If memory serves, when Vecna absorbed Iuz's power, the Lady of Pain was hesitate towards fighting him.

[Talderas]

Actually they don't, necessarily (Manual of the Planes p.46). Spells that use the Transitive Planes only function when cast in places that are coexistent with or coterminous with that Transitive Plane.

That would mean spells like Shadow Evocation simply cannot function anywhere other than the Material planes or Shadow plane since those spells directly contact the Shadow Plane to to manifest their effects. I'm not sure I particularly like this since the illusion school is already punished during planar quests in multiple subschools just based on the nature of the creatures you encounter. This just makes another subschool of Illusion useless in a planar game.

[Answerer]

No, that's not true: Illusion (Shadow) spells are in this sense equivalent to Conjuration (Summoning) spells, but for shadow-stuff rather than elemental-stuff or alignment-stuff. You can call upon those materials even when not coterminous to its source.

It's stuff like blink or ethereal jaunt (which involves stepping across the thin boundary between Material and Ethereal Planes) that are affected. When not coterminous, more powerful/permanent effects (e.g. plane shift) are necessary.

[afroakuma]

That would mean spells like Shadow Evocation simply cannot function anywhere other than the Material planes or Shadow plane since those spells directly contact the Shadow Plane to to manifest their effects. I'm not sure I particularly like this since the illusion school is already punished during planar quests in multiple subschools just based on the nature of the creatures you encounter. This just makes another subschool of Illusion useless in a planar game.

I'd probably provide for some sort of portable block of shadowstuff to serve as a spell focus for ShaCon/ShaEv, though, but that's just me.

[Arcanist]

A few questions.

What is the true origin of the Lady of pain? I heard that she was the daughter of a greater deity or merely a cosmic construct set to enforce neutrality. But I have a hard time believing this.

Who is the Serpent? I've heard many good arguments citing that he may or may not be Asmodeus.

Once upon a time the Netherese were traveling the planes, however after a few horrible expeditions into the Demiplane of Imprisonment they stopped. Many reports cite that the "survivors" were mutated (into what?) Or killed by a mysterious entity (Thurzidun?).

What are your thoughts on these?

[Eldan]

You'll never get an answer on the Lady of Pain. At least not an official one. She was written as a mystery, and she has to remain one.

[Xervous]

Which gods' followers are typically more active // populous in the prime material planes?

[afroakuma]

A few questions.

What is the true origin of the Lady of pain? I heard that she was the daughter of a greater deity or merely a cosmic construct set to enforce neutrality. But I have a hard time believing this.

*looks back at the ocean of dismembered berks who rattled their bone-boxes about the dark of the Lady*

Ehehehe. Ehehehehehe.

Well let's see here; there are a great, great many theories about that. Some believe she is a member of an obscure group known as the Ancient Brethren; other sources report her variously as a demon, an archdevil or a daughter of Poseidon.

One interesting theory involves the myths of the ancient Serpents of Law; that besides Jazirian and Ahriman, a third serpent existed representing neutrality, and when the circle was sundered, the wounded third serpent wrapped itself around the Spire to recover. This one has gained a bit of popularity due to the Rule of Threes, but the eternal flaws in that myth remain.

What is ultimately known of Her Serenity is that she is at least as old as Sigil and likely older; there has never been a time when the city existed that she did not. Some would just call her an overdeity like Ao and be done with it, but the ultimate truth will ever be a mystery.

Who is the Serpent? I've heard many good arguments citing that he may or may not be Asmodeus.

The Serpent, according to Vecna, is an ancient entity that embodies all magic, everywhere. This entity "speaks" to Vecna, who learns from it dark secrets of sorcery few could even begin to conceive of. The Serpent, who is also known by the name "Mok'slyk," is suggested to be a member of an Ancient Brethren, kin to the Lady of Pain and/or possibly Asmodeus. It may, of course, be nothing more than the fitful stirring's of Vecna's twisted mind.

Once upon a time the Netherese were traveling the planes, however after a few horrible expeditions into the Demiplane of Imprisonment they stopped. Many reports cite that the "survivors" were mutated (into what?) Or killed by a mysterious entity (Thurzidun?).

Can you get me the citation on this? I'm mining the two conventional timelines I have on hand for this and can't seem to turn it up. I know they went to the Demiplane of Nightmares and mutated there, but the source I have for their journey to the Demiplane of Imprisonment doesn't suggest any mutations - just horrible, horrible death.