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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    So I take it something happened to MinMaxBoards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    So you can see my complaint with the system is not with the people who misuse it, it is mainly that it is designed to always force a misuse in some % of the users. It will either be misused, unnecessary, or partially useful. Being partially useful does not outweigh the constant misuse.
    ...your entire problem with the tier system is that some people find a way to misuse it? Crap, I guess we should just start banning power tools because some dip will find a way to cut his hand off. Let's toss drain cleaner and matches out of society, someone could blow their house up. Let's toss ALL of modern science out because someone's going to blow someone else up with it.
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    Gotter, you have managed to do what few people ever do - turn a subjective discussion into something a person can be objectively wrong about. You are wrong. Your logic and arguments are both faulty, and there's overwhelming positive evidence about the tier system that drowns out your complaints. If you don't like it, don't use it. Done. Simple. Painless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    So I take it something happened to MinMaxBoards?
    Evidently the server they were on got hacked, thus taking them out. Handbooks have been moved to other places. Since this is the board I've been on of late, I moved this one here.

    JaronK

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    Gotterdammerung: a long post
    What I take from your post, no matter how well written it may be is the exact same thing that I get from half the posts about the tier system.

    It doesn't work for every game ever therefore worthless

    You say the tier system is only ever well used if you already have the capacity to correctly evaluate different factors.

    Clearly that is not true as has been said by a number of peoples. The goal of the tier system is basicly a guideline/warning about potential disparency between classes. It is a fantastic tool to introduce peoples to balance issues between classes whithin dnd and it's popularity speak for itself.

    Wht I see is people bemoaning the fact it's used as perfect plan when it's a guideline and therefore should be removed because it is not in fact a perfect plan.

    It's not even wanting to ban hammers because they are misused and kill someone so much as wanting to ban hammer because it doesn't work well at killing someone.

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Getting somewhat back on topic, Dragon Shaman still hasn't been listed. The handbook says that its a Tier 4 but that's not reflected in the list here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jedipilot24 View Post
    Getting somewhat back on topic, Dragon Shaman still hasn't been listed. The handbook says that its a Tier 4 but that's not reflected in the list here.
    I'd say dragon shaman tier is high 4th or even low 3 depending on some rule interpretation

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    I don't agree at all. A Barbarian or Rogue are high Tier 4. The Dragon Shaman gets one combat trick, that can only be used once per 1d4 rounds, and isn't nearly as effective as a Barbarian's charge or even a Rogue's Sneak Attack. The auras are weak and the most notable thing about the class is that it saves you some money on healing (but doesn't even eliminate the need for healing wands, just lets you get away with fewer).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    I don't agree at all. A Barbarian or Rogue are high Tier 4. The Dragon Shaman gets one combat trick, that can only be used once per 1d4 rounds, and isn't nearly as effective as a Barbarian's charge or even a Rogue's Sneak Attack. The auras are weak and the most notable thing about the class is that it saves you some money on healing (but doesn't even eliminate the need for healing wands, just lets you get away with fewer).
    I was going to say something, then I realised I was thinking of the dragonfire adept rather than dragon shaman, my bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    ...your entire problem with the tier system is that some people find a way to misuse it? Crap, I guess we should just start banning power tools because some dip will find a way to cut his hand off. Let's toss drain cleaner and matches out of society, someone could blow their house up. Let's toss ALL of modern science out because someone's going to blow someone else up with it.

    This tells me you either didn't read my post, or you didn't understand my post. Your interpretation of my viewpoint is 100% inaccurate. If this is an acceptable debate tactic and we are allowed to inaccurately represent each others viewpoints, then my counterpoint is

    "You agree with me."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Gotter, you have managed to do what few people ever do - turn a subjective discussion into something a person can be objectively wrong about. You are wrong. Your logic and arguments are both faulty, and there's overwhelming positive evidence about the tier system that drowns out your complaints. If you don't like it, don't use it. Done. Simple. Painless.
    Regardless of whether the discussion is subjective or objective (in reality it is and has been both), you have made no effort to directly address the points i bring up. In essence, your counter-argument is "Nuh-uh. You're wrong." and "If you don't like it, don't use it."

    My counter-argument is "Nuh-uh. You're wrong." and "It affects me whether I use it or not."

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderand View Post
    What I take from your post, no matter how well written it may be is the exact same thing that I get from half the posts about the tier system.

    It doesn't work for every game ever therefore worthless

    You say the tier system is only ever well used if you already have the capacity to correctly evaluate different factors.

    Clearly that is not true as has been said by a number of peoples. The goal of the tier system is basicly a guideline/warning about potential disparency between classes. It is a fantastic tool to introduce peoples to balance issues between classes whithin dnd and it's popularity speak for itself.

    Wht I see is people bemoaning the fact it's used as perfect plan when it's a guideline and therefore should be removed because it is not in fact a perfect plan.

    It's not even wanting to ban hammers because they are misused and kill someone so much as wanting to ban hammer because it doesn't work well at killing someone.
    If you took singular aspects of my post, then I can understand why you misunderstand my words. My points were interlinked and were not intended to be viewed piecemeal. Your counterpoints do not directly address the points I brought up in my post.



    P.S. I've expressed my views to the best of my ability and still continue to be misunderstood and generally flamed. I therefore, see no reason for continued attempts at representing my point of view in this forum. Hopefully this brief duration of scrutiny will have some lasting benefit, even if it is only through highlighting common abuses.

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderand View Post
    I was going to say something, then I realised I was thinking of the dragonfire adept rather than dragon shaman, my bad.
    Dragonfire Adept I could see getting to t3.
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Dragonfire Adept is a much better class, yes. I'd say it's probably Tier 3 but with the caveat that it does lack staying power: at high levels it's probably going to have a hard time keeping that status.

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Which is why I think it's close to straddling the line between t3 and t4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Gotter, you have managed to do what few people ever do - turn a subjective discussion into something a person can be objectively wrong about. You are wrong. Your logic and arguments are both faulty, and there's overwhelming positive evidence about the tier system that drowns out your complaints. If you don't like it, don't use it. Done. Simple. Painless.
    No, he's not.

    Cold Truth is:

    D&D, is by the large default a very nerdy game. The typical and sterotype of a nerd, is shy, reserved, low self-esteem.

    Thus, they look for a way to over come that, D&D is one of many ways to do so. Nerds in the majority way of thinking, typically are much more high level thinkers.

    These walking self contained think tanks, want to be the best at what they enjoy much like a sterotypical jock wants to be the best at whatever sport he's in. Thus, enter the power gamer.

    They roll video games, mmos, pen and paper with absolute rule. These are the people who find every bit of advantage and every bit of power from every crack they can find.

    Combine this with the fact that D&D is usually found at a younger age, mostly the teenage years, it can be very easy to see how the average player wants to impress those at the table and flex his nuts.

    Contrast that with a group of adults, it is less likely.

    Please don't try and twist my words into me saying everyone fits these descriptions, just a large portion of them.

    Anyway, you all flock to this because you don't have the balls to just tell that wizard breaking your game as the DM to cool it and explain why they are hurting the game. This tier system has no place in d&d.

    All it does is give everyone a one way ticket to know what the most powerful classes are because in D&D being verstile = power. Those who see the merit in the tiers can't see the forest for the trees. They can't see the problem is not the class it is the player, or in some cases the DM.

    Those it doesn't apply to, only give more fuel to an already unstable gaming generation who doesn't have the best social skills and use it degrade people.

    My group I dm is made up now:

    2 rangers, 2 rogues (1 assassin), 1 dwarf fighter, 2 barbarians (1 is warhulk 1 is beast master), 1 cleric who earth/divine magician (very much a vetern but plays for what he invisions his cleric to be in RP sense not power), 1 scout, 1 wizard (played by a new player), 1 half-celestial monk, 1 centuar fighter, 1 miniotaur fighter (dragon lance race).

    Age range - 47, 43, 33, 27, 19, 15, 15, 13, 10, 8.

    No one steps on peoples feet, we are respectful, we *shocker* raise hands when someone has something to say, we also take turns doing things so the rogues and scouts aren't taking all the trap disablings.

    So, yeah, screw your tiers, wake up, realize its your players that are your problems. If they are breaking your game, bring it up to them, ask the others if they even care, and don't follow some sticky that reaks of false logic.

    Use your judgement or ask someone who has better judgement.

    Lay off the guy, he's not wrong, you refuse to accept the truths.


    Take your way of playing to 4E where roles are enforced, because that's what this tier system is. 4E wrapped in a lot of sugarcoated imitation 3.5E BS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by killem2 View Post
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    No, he's not.

    Cold Truth is:

    D&D, is by the large default a very nerdy game. The typical and sterotype of a nerd, is shy, reserved, low self-esteem.

    Thus, they look for a way to over come that, D&D is one of many ways to do so. Nerds in the majority way of thinking, typically are much more high level thinkers.

    These walking self contained think tanks, want to be the best at what they enjoy much like a sterotypical jock wants to be the best at whatever sport he's in. Thus, enter the power gamer.

    They roll video games, mmos, pen and paper with absolute rule. These are the people who find every bit of advantage and every bit of power from every crack they can find.

    Combine this with the fact that D&D is usually found at a younger age, mostly the teenage years, it can be very easy to see how the average player wants to impress those at the table and flex his nuts.

    Contrast that with a group of adults, it is less likely.

    Please don't try and twist my words into me saying everyone fits these descriptions, just a large portion of them.

    Anyway, you all flock to this because you don't have the balls to just tell that wizard breaking your game as the DM to cool it and explain why they are hurting the game. This tier system has no place in d&d.

    All it does is give everyone a one way ticket to know what the most powerful classes are because in D&D being verstile = power. Those who see the merit in the tiers can't see the forest for the trees. They can't see the problem is not the class it is the player, or in some cases the DM.

    Those it doesn't apply to, only give more fuel to an already unstable gaming generation who doesn't have the best social skills and use it degrade people.

    My group I dm is made up now:

    2 rangers, 2 rogues (1 assassin), 1 dwarf fighter, 2 barbarians (1 is warhulk 1 is beast master), 1 cleric who earth/divine magician (very much a vetern but plays for what he invisions his cleric to be in RP sense not power), 1 scout, 1 wizard (played by a new player), 1 half-celestial monk, 1 centuar fighter, 1 miniotaur fighter (dragon lance race).

    Age range - 47, 43, 33, 27, 19, 15, 15, 13, 10, 8.

    No one steps on peoples feet, we are respectful, we *shocker* raise hands when someone has something to say, we also take turns doing things so the rogues and scouts aren't taking all the trap disablings.

    So, yeah, screw your tiers, wake up, realize its your players that are your problems. If they are breaking your game, bring it up to them, ask the others if they even care, and don't follow some sticky that reaks of false logic.

    Use your judgement or ask someone who has better judgement.

    Lay off the guy, he's not wrong, you refuse to accept the truths.


    Take your way of playing to 4E where roles are enforced, because that's what this tier system is. 4E wrapped in a lot of sugarcoated imitation 3.5E BS.


    No. And before you go on another rant, the problem I have with my players is that they're slack-jawed morons, not that they're breaking my game. When I utilize the information found in the tier system, it's to A. understand further what makes a class or option powerful or not powerful and B. to help scale my challenges DOWN to the level of the wretched fools I have the misfortune to be stuck with at the table.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    So you can see my complaint with the system is not with the people who misuse it, it is mainly that it is designed to always force a misuse in some % of the users. It will either be misused, unnecessary, or partially useful. Being partially useful does not outweigh the constant misuse.
    All tools suffer from misuse. I understood your points, which I read all of, carefully, twice, to be the same as other posters. Your beef with the tiers is that they are misused, yet somehow this is not analogous to someone using a hammer to brain someone in your mind. A hammer is a pretty well designed weapon for braining people, thus it is designed for misuse too, no?

    I don't think this tool is more designed for misuse than any other reasonably well designed tool. Plus, this one comes with a pretty good compilation of guidelines and explanatory notes to help the reader use it appropriately, which would drastically reduce misuse if they were read and comprehended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    This tells me you either didn't read my post, or you didn't understand my post. Your interpretation of my viewpoint is 100% inaccurate. If this is an acceptable debate tactic and we are allowed to inaccurately represent each others viewpoints, then my counterpoint is...

    If you took singular aspects of my post, then I can understand why you misunderstand my words. My points were interlinked and were not intended to be viewed piecemeal. Your counterpoints do not directly address the points I brought up in my post.
    Perhaps you were unclear? The message you portrayed seems to be in line with what other posters interpreted to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by killem2 View Post

    Cold Truth is:
    ...
    Take your way of playing to 4E where roles are enforced, because that's what this tier system is. 4E wrapped in a lot of sugarcoated imitation 3.5E BS.
    I doubt that's the "cold truth". Most of the players that I've had the privilege of participating in games with were very much socially healthy, with self-esteem to spare. I've found power gamers rare, and the few times I have seen or played with them, they have had the courtesy to play characters of appropriate ability, and create campaigns dedicated to power gaming to avoid bringing it to other tables.

    The tier system in no way suggests what roles people or classes should play in. It certainly identifies that some classes are better suited for certain roles than others, but these are not at all the same thing. You may be interested in reading it again, you appear to think it says things it does not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    This tells me you either didn't read my post, or you didn't understand my post. Your interpretation of my viewpoint is 100% inaccurate. If this is an acceptable debate tactic and we are allowed to inaccurately represent each others viewpoints, then my counterpoint is

    "You agree with me."
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung
    So you can see my complaint with the system is not with the people who misuse it, it is mainly that it is designed to always force a misuse in some % of the users. It will either be misused, unnecessary, or partially useful. Being partially useful does not outweigh the constant misuse.
    Either you were massively unclear as to what you meant, or, more likely, you're unwilling to admit you're flat out wrong. Your EXACT words were that your complaint is that the tier system is misused. Unless you're living an incredibly sheltered life, you're aware that quite literally every tool ever devised can and has been misused at some point. You go further with this, though, and say that because it is misused, we should scrap it. A logical extension of such a poorly thought out argument is that every tool that has ever been misused should be scrapped.

    So. Were you wrong, or did you just fail to express yourself?
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    My group has never discussed tiers, but I'm not sure why people are so offended by it? I can see more experienced groups wanting to at least approach the idea of at different levels of power when starting a campaign and this seems like a fairly solid guide in being able to do that.

    I think it's safe to say it can be useful to some and not so much to others. Lots of tools out there doesn't mean they fit everyone or every situation. I love the Heroforge spreadsheet (I love things that do the math for me). No one else in my group does though.

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    I am starting to wonder if half the people posting in this thread aren't engaged in a long con to make this thread enough of a flame war that it gets locked, thus "eliminating" the tier system.

    On topic, I think that the positive discussions as a result of this system, mainly the why each class is in its tier discussion, is very beneficial for increasing general competence in the 3.5 system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    You do realize it's not supposed to give you a prediction, right? Do you realize what it's supposed to do?

    JaronK
    I think so. It's supposed to provide ranks of the different base classes by flexibility. This in turn can be used as a guide to adjust up or down certain classes, to provide a more even game, or as a predictive guide to anticipate balance problems with certain classes before they appear.

    Is that a horrible distortion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elderand View Post
    Which is why I think it's close to straddling the line between t3 and t4
    Eh, I'd say DFA is solidly a low-T3. The class is very good at battlefield control, surprisingly isn't neutralized by Evasion like that Dragon Shaman, and has a very useful number of options available to it outside of combat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    I think so. It's supposed to provide ranks of the different base classes by flexibility. This in turn can be used as a guide to adjust up or down certain classes, to provide a more even game, or as a predictive guide to anticipate balance problems with certain classes before they appear.

    Is that a horrible distortion?
    In my own usage, the importance is not so much which classes are in which tiers, but rather which attributes result in which tiers, and what that means about the class's capability.

    For example, the Tier 2 trait is access to game-breaking powers, while the Tier 1 trait is access to game-breaking powers that they can change around on a regular basis. Knowing what classes have that Tier 2 trait means I can pay extra attention to a Sorcerer's spell list to make sure he hasn't chosen one, and I can sit down with a Cleric player and have a chat about spells he's not to ask his deity for, etc.

    And it also means that I can look at a class that I'm not familiar with and judge it pretty well based on what it can and cannot do. The tiers give hallmarks to watch for that allow the judging of material pretty easily. It is a useful tool. It does not automatically tell you everything you need to know about intra-party balance, but if you understand it, it does tell you what to watch out for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elvengunner69 View Post
    My group has never discussed tiers, but I'm not sure why people are so offended by it? I can see more experienced groups wanting to at least approach the idea of at different levels of power when starting a campaign and this seems like a fairly solid guide in being able to do that.

    I think it's safe to say it can be useful to some and not so much to others. Lots of tools out there doesn't mean they fit everyone or every situation. I love the Heroforge spreadsheet (I love things that do the math for me). No one else in my group does though.
    This is not uncommon, both with this and with a lot of other explanations out there both in gaming and elsewhere.

    The core of it, although they will never admit it, is that many people cannot differentiate an explanation of a problem from its creation. If a statistical problem exists, and they have either not personally run into its effects or don't consider those effects significant, then someone showing up and explaining what the problem is appears to be an attack on the entire process.

    Usually, the next stage is to assume that the explanation of the problem is in fact an endorsement of it, and thus to assume that anyone trying to discuss the problem is in fact attacking anyone who wants to just play a game.

    It's all pretty standard stuff, really. There were some real scorchers with the Exalted fanbase over something not unlike the tiers, because some people gradually realized that Exalted's combat engine was basically divided into Tier Unkillable, Tier Not So Hot, and Tier Already Dead and tried to bring it up as a bit of a landmine issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    This is not uncommon, both with this and with a lot of other explanations out there both in gaming and elsewhere.

    The core of it, although they will never admit it, is that many people cannot differentiate an explanation of a problem from its creation. If a statistical problem exists, and they have either not personally run into its effects or don't consider those effects significant, then someone showing up and explaining what the problem is appears to be an attack on the entire process.

    Usually, the next stage is to assume that the explanation of the problem is in fact an endorsement of it, and thus to assume that anyone trying to discuss the problem is in fact attacking anyone who wants to just play a game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    The core of it, although they will never admit it, is that many people cannot differentiate an explanation of a problem from its creation. If a statistical problem exists, and they have either not personally run into its effects or don't consider those effects significant, then someone showing up and explaining what the problem is appears to be an attack on the entire process.
    Hitting the nail on the head, here. The entire post is perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    The core of it, although they will never admit it, is that many people cannot differentiate an explanation of a problem from its creation. If a statistical problem exists, and they have either not personally run into its effects or don't consider those effects significant, then someone showing up and explaining what the problem is appears to be an attack on the entire process.
    *slow clap*

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    ...your entire problem with the tier system is that some people find a way to misuse it? Crap, I guess we should just start banning power tools because some dip will find a way to cut his hand off. Let's toss drain cleaner and matches out of society, someone could blow their house up. Let's toss ALL of modern science out because someone's going to blow someone else up with it.
    Ban every branch of science ever.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    Except I am not trying to persecute the tier system for its simplicity. A closer analogy would be claiming that it is wrong for a judge in a banana split competition to try to judge the entries solely based on which brand of vanilla ice cream they used in their creations. And furthermore, intimately studying the parameters of different ice cream brands is ultimately a useless endeavor, because it has very little effect on the final flavor of the banana split, therefore the information will likely just establish an unnecessary bias.
    To continue your metaphor:
    That presumes your goal is to judge the banana split competition, but you are not reading A Judge's Guide to Banana Splits. You're reading How Ice Cream Brands Affect the Taste of Banana Splits. The fact that it does not provide a universal solution or address your banana-split related question in depth makes it neither wrong nor useless.

    In fact, How Ice Cream Brands Affect the Taste of Banana Splits would be immensely useful to someone entering a banana split competition-- even if they are not yet of the calibre that they can reasonably exect to win place or show. It would also be immensely useful for training dessert chefs.

  29. - Top - End - #299

    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    This tells me you either didn't read my post, or you didn't understand my post. Your interpretation of my viewpoint is 100% inaccurate.
    What, that you deny the value of the Tier Sytem, because of the potential for misuse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung View Post
    You lack the capability to re-assess the information in the tier list. In this case you shouldn't use the tier system at all. You will ALWAYS force a misuse. The consequences of a misuse can vary greatly from non-existant to detrimental. However, it is worth noting that a positive experience from a misuse can not be credited as a positive mark for the design of the tier system as it was a misuse of the system. This is an inherent design flaw of the system as it was intended to be a way to make the information easily accessible and useful to all the community. However, if the entire community does use it, there will automatically be misuse. In other words, it is intended to be widely used for benefit of a community, but is designed (whether intentionally or not) to be detrimental if used improperly and has a skill requirement to be used properly.
    Looks like you're denying the value of the Tier System based on the potential for misuse to me.

    The Skill people need to be able to use the Tier System properly, is the same one that is necessary to play the game the Tier System is designed for. If someone lacks the ability to read and understand what's important, they lack the ability to use the system properly, be it the Tiers or the game itself. Plain and simple, so how about we just deny the game as being something people can enjoy, due to the people who'll misinterprate/abuse parts of it?

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    No, guys, he's saying that

    "Fact #3 Because the tier system must be re-assessed with the addition of new factors, AND because player capability, GM interpretation, and prestiging are all "new factors", the tier system will always need to be re-assessed. Every single table in the world will have to re-assess the information provided in the tier system."

    So, the tool isn't very useful because you ALWAYS have to ask yourself "is this a batman wizard, or a blaster wizard?" "is this an ubercharger or a sword and board fighter"

    We can all agree that the ubercharger posted higher up this page is better at killing enemies than No Metamagic Evoker. So, without your re-assessment, the tier system is not helpful here because it would lead you to believe the Evoker is more capable than the charger.

    Since you must always do this with every character, the tool is not as elegant and simple and fantastic as people say.
    Thanks Gigi Digi for the avatar.

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