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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegis013 View Post
    Maybe he means per day slots? (ofc, that would not account for int bonus slots)



    Well sure, but in practice, it doesn't work as well as one might want against a reasonably optimized Wizard. They will always have a plethora of what are often referred to as "toolbox" spells. Spells that can answers an insane number of problems, such as polymorph. Wizards usually prepare several iterations of these, especially if their divinatiions weren't clear or if they're up against a DM like myself (I run very difficult campaigns, where a pretty high level of optimization is necessary to escape penalties of being resurrected and whatnot), or they take options like Uncanny Forethought or Mage of the Arcane Order to provide themselves some emergency open slots which can be filled at a moments notice.

    It's really not that hard to become something quite close to Schrodinger's Wizard without the DM pretty arbitrarily banning options.
    Yeah. You can slow 'em down, but you can't really stop them. Not without some serious DM-machina moves, like having their heavily guarded spellbook(s) stolen by Inexplicably Clever Thieves. You do have to try, though.

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    You don't, at that point. It's contained, defeated. Now you have an ever regenerating source of meat that can feed a kingdom. Or you could of course get commoners, lots of them, to just sit there and coup de grace the thing over and over until it rolls a 1... but you'll still need the scroll of Wish to finish the job.

    Or you could put it in a lake so it's constantly drowning.

    There's lots of options, really.

    JaronK
    It takes a very high strength to pick up a Tarrasque and drop it in a lake

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Yeah. You can slow 'em down, but you can't really stop them. Not without some serious DM-machina moves, like having their heavily guarded spellbook(s) stolen by Inexplicably Clever Thieves. You do have to try, though.
    You don't necessarily have to try, or at least not to the same degree, it depends on the game you're running. My game stayed pretty close to RAW with pretty few house-rules, and the limiting factor was that the NPCs, who have had more time to establish their power, are running divinations to find those who might rise to challenge them and nip the problem in the bud, so to speak.

    Having the Wizard take things like Uncanny Forethought wasn't going to stop the guys who were stopping everybody else from taking things like Tainted Scholar and Illithid Savant, by having those very things. Ofc, it didn't stop the party from finding ways by the end of the game to challenge, and defeat, these NPCs.

    But there's certainly a time and a place for games where the power approaches Pun-Pun.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Does DR/epic not mean that the Tarresque counts a magic weapon? Or is that only for the purposes of overcoming DR? And why wouldn't the Tarresque just tunnel away from the Allips, who then can't follow him?

    And being asleep does not mean you autofail will saves, any more than unconscious means you autofail reflex saves.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    Does DR/epic not mean that the Tarresque counts a magic weapon? Or is that only for the purposes of overcoming DR? And why wouldn't the Tarresque just tunnel away from the Allips, who then can't follow him?
    The Tarrasque's damage reduction means that its natural weapons count as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, but for no other reasons, so it has no way of harming an allip (or any other incorporeal creature).

    Also, I'm not really sure how the Tarrasque would tunnel, since it's SRD stats list no means of doing so. It does have its rush ability, so it could run away from the Allips if not immediately disabled.
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-01-28 at 07:40 PM.
    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class Is In Its Tier

    On the use of the tier system:
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    "What's this? A TV Guide? How dare you tell me what movies I should watch! Fitness guide? Burn it, I can take care of my health by myself, thank you very much!"

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    And why wouldn't the Tarresque just tunnel away from the Allips, who then can't follow him?
    They're incorporeal, so there's very few things the Tarrasque can go through that an Allip can't go through easier. Moreover, it really does seem to me that the Tarrasque, as described, is incapable of retreat. Int 3 would be sufficient enough in general, but it's not just Int 3, it's an Int-3 incarnation of destruction and rage. I just feel like "retreat" is a concept its brain is incapable of handling.

    Anyway, if that's your answer, fine: a Wizard 7 will have a hard time killing the Tarrasque, because it will be too busy running away.

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    Anyway, if that's your answer, fine: a Wizard 7 will have a hard time killing the Tarrasque, because it will be too busy running away.
    Regardless of whether my DM would give me experience for it, I would consider making the Tarrasque run away at level 7 to be solving the encounter.
    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class Is In Its Tier

    On the use of the tier system:
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    "What's this? A TV Guide? How dare you tell me what movies I should watch! Fitness guide? Burn it, I can take care of my health by myself, thank you very much!"

  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnith View Post
    The Tarrasque's damage reduction means that its natural weapons count as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, but for no other reasons, so it has no way of harming an allip (or any other incorporeal creature).
    This was the arguement I was thinking of:

    Actually, a look at Rules Compendium:
    "Epic Weapons that have a magical enhancement bonus of +6 or higher can overcome epic damage reduction. An “epic weapon” isn’t enough. This type of damage reduction is supernatural. If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR 5/epic, it also has the epic strike ability (see page 100)."

    "Epic Strike
    Natural weapon attacks made by a creature that has this supernatural special attack are treated as having a +6 magical enhancement bonus for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

    So yeah, creatures with epic DR do pierce DR/Magic now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karnith View Post
    Also, I'm not really sure how the Tarrasque would tunnel, since it's SRD stats list no means of doing so.
    Fair point, I thought it did for some reason...

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Chambers's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    So yeah, creatures with epic DR do pierce DR/Magic now.
    Nope.

    Epic Strike
    Natural weapon attacks made by a creature that has this supernatural special attack are treated as having a +6 magical enhancement bonus for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    An incorporeal creatures inability to be hurt by non-magical weapons is not damage reduction.

    Edit: Actually, you're right. The Big T's attacks would bypass DR/Magic. What I meant to say is that is irrelevant to the Allip as Epic Strike doesn't actually make them magic weapons and therefore it can't be hurt by them.
    Last edited by Chambers; 2013-01-28 at 09:09 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    Stuff
    I actually didn't know about that, somehow; I had just assumed that "epic" wasn't the same as "magic" for this purpose. Since the Rules Compendium says that
    Quote Originally Posted by Rules Compendium, page 64
    An incorporeal creature can be harmed only by [...] magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons [...]
    I guess that the Tarrasque can hit an Allip. Though it still suffers from the 50% miss chance.

    Or am I reading that wrong? Does "strike as a magic weapon" have some other meaning?


    EDIT: I was reading it wrong. You learn something new every day!
    Last edited by Karnith; 2013-01-28 at 11:45 PM.
    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class Is In Its Tier

    On the use of the tier system:
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
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  11. - Top - End - #371

    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    I answered that: Candle of Invocation is an absurdly broken, poorly-valued item that allows you to cast gate long before that should be possible. So gate in one of the many creatures capable of casting wish as a spell-like ability, and make it finish off the Tarrasque.

    Are you missing the bit where they can add more spells to their book for a small amount of gold?
    They don't get more casts per day.

    Also, it's not 'dead' it's just asleep. You can't kill it with wish until you've reduced it's hp to something below 0.

    Also, for the guy above the post I quoted, you don't auto-fail will saves when you're unconcious, you just are always willing. So you could cast benign transposition on the Tarrasque.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    It takes a very high strength to pick up a Tarrasque and drop it in a lake
    I imagine spells that soften earth and such might make it easier to just make the lake under the terrasque. Or you just get together enough commoners and ropes and go liliputian on it to move it.

    JaronK

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Your assuming the DM doesn't change its half dozen toughness feats, and give it improved toughness

  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Also, it's not 'dead' it's just asleep. You can't kill it with wish until you've reduced it's hp to something below 0.
    Damaging an unconscious target is extremely easy. Hire a bunch of guys, buy them a bunch of scythes, and coup de grace it to stupidly high nonlethal damage. It won't wake up unless some idiot casts restoration on it. Then use the Candle of Invocation.

    Here, this is a full write-up of the process. It actually goes with a 3rd-level party, rather than 8th.
    Last edited by Answerer; 2013-01-31 at 05:19 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #375

    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    On Truenamers

    So, just out of curiousity, in a game where the truenamer is fixed to reflect how the original writer probably imagined it would work, i.e.:

    1. Truespeaking is a class level check modified by Int, rather than a skill.
    2. Base truespeak DC is 10 + level/CR.
    3. All truespeak modifiers are halved.


    What would the class' resulting tier be?

  16. - Top - End - #376
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfGrammarGeek View Post
    On Truenamers

    So, just out of curiousity, in a game where the truenamer is fixed to reflect how the original writer probably imagined it would work, i.e.:

    1. Truespeaking is a class level check modified by Int, rather than a skill.
    2. Base truespeak DC is 10 + level/CR.
    3. All truespeak modifiers are halved.


    What would the class' resulting tier be?
    Assuming you can make the check pretty much all the time (so they work like Warlocks), they'd probably be around Tier 4, but I'm not quite sure... until they get high enough level to spam Gate. Then they're instantly Tier 1-2.

    JaronK

  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfGrammarGeek View Post
    On Truenamers

    So, just out of curiousity, in a game where the truenamer is fixed to reflect how the original writer probably imagined it would work, i.e.:

    1. Truespeaking is a class level check modified by Int, rather than a skill.
    2. Base truespeak DC is 10 + level/CR.
    3. All truespeak modifiers are halved.


    What would the class' resulting tier be?
    Even with that, you still have the Law of Sequence stopping the class from doing what it needs to and the fact that Utterances are largely not level-appropriate.

  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    On Truenamer:

    I'd say about Tier 6, out of the box, with average optimization, it is completely pointless, and doesn't do what it is supposed to do.

    It becomes Tier 4 with High levels of Optimization. Barely fills a role.

    At Gate mode, it spontaneously becomes Tier 2, because its only trick relies so heavily on money and offerings. Of course it is Tier 1 if it actually is allowed to Chaingate.

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    Default Re: Tier System for Classes (Rescued from MinMax)

    Poor, poor Truenamer! I've never seen you in play, and probably never will...you were such a lost opportunity.

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