[PF+3.X] Calling a horde

**Darius Kane** · 2013-01-10, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)

Would a 6th level spell that allows to call 16 creatures (of the same race) of CR 3 at CL 11 be overpowered?
If not, would the same spell be overpowered if it could call the same amount of creatures but at CR 8 at CL 20?

**BRC** · 2013-01-10, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)

I suppose it depends on the Creatures. CR is not always a surefire indicator of Power. It's a management nightmare either way.

**Fouredged Sword** · 2013-01-10, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)

16 level 3 fighters, maybe.

16 level 3 wizards all with magic missile prepped, not so much. 42d4+42 (16 wizards x 2 missiles per spell x 1d4+1 damage per missile) damage, no save, is harsh and if it repeats for 5 rounds (the wizards all cast again the next round) that is much too powerful.

CL20 and a 9th level spell slot now, that would be fine, under powered even. Unless they all unleash fell drain sonic snaps at something not immune to negative levels.

Now, if the spell just called 16 premarked members of your followers that you have due to the leadership feat, then that is much more reasonable. Say you can summon CL*3 HD of followers each no more than CL/3 HD or some such, then it's your DM's fault for allowing leadership and you are just moving around resorces you already have not gaining substantial power.

**BRC** · 2013-01-10, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword

16 level 3 fighters, maybe.

16 level 3 wizards all with magic missile prepped, not so much. 42d4+42 (16 wizards x 2 missiles per spell x 1d4+1 damage per missile) damage, no save, is harsh and if it repeats for 5 rounds (the wizards all cast again the next round) that is much too powerful.

I was once in an Epic Level game where one of the PC's got one shotted when they attacked an arcane university, only to be Magic Missiled by 100 1st Level wizards.

**WinWin** · 2013-01-10, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)

Compare it to Planar Binding or Summon Monster.

The first can summon 3 creatures of the same type, not much more powerful than what you plan to target.

The second can summon up to 5 creatures, for a shorter period of time.

If you do plan to implement the spell, I would keep the duration short and limit the special abilities of the summons, simply due to the fact they have no reason not to expend all of their resources as summons, wheras PC's typically have to conserve their resources.

**Darius Kane** · 2013-01-10, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)

I forgot to add that it's a rewrite of Planar Binding/Ally. I had it in the title but then removed it. It works like Planar Binding/Ally, but uses CR instead of HD and allows calling more creatures. The highest CR is equal to 6 + 1/2 the caster's CL (max. 16 CR at CL 20, the earliest is CR 11 at 11th level).

**Crustypeanut** · 2013-01-10, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by BRC

I was once in an Epic Level game where one of the PC's got one shotted when they attacked an arcane university, only to be Magic Missiled by 100 1st Level wizards.

Owned. 100d4+100? ATTACK OF THE APPRENTICES! Just goes to show you what a horde of weaklings could do..

And its funny that a simple 1st-level spell would've saved him.

**mregecko** · 2013-01-10, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Crustypeanut

Owned. 100d4+100? ATTACK OF THE APPRENTICES! Just goes to show you what a horde of weaklings could do..

And its funny that a simple 1st-level spell would've saved him.

Not to derail TOO much, but what epic level wizard doesn't have 100 contingencies and -- at the very least -- a Celerity that would let him GTFO? Doing it wrong :-P

**BRC** · 2013-01-10, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by mregecko

Not to derail TOO much, but what epic level wizard doesn't have 100 contingencies and -- at the very least -- a Celerity that would let him GTFO? Doing it wrong :-P

Never said this was a Wizard. I forget which class it was, but it wasn't a caster, and our group is not especially high-op.

**Crustypeanut** · 2013-01-10, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)

Well, he didn't say it was a wizard.. it could've been an epic-barbarian or something. We don't know lol. That being said.. I agree.. though perhaps he wasn't expecting all of the apprentices to rise against him. He probably only figured the higher-ups would, and whats a few 9th-CL magic missiles?

**Treblain** · 2013-01-10, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)

Hmmmm... what's the CR of That Damned Crab again?

I think it would be pretty overpowered for a PC or enemy in a D&D combat encounter. Sure they have low HP, but in 3.5, it's not standard for opponents of the caster to consistently have the area-of-effect spells needed to take them down quickly. At that point, they can eat up the opponent's actions.

As a thing a powerful wizard in your game could do, it sounds okay, but I wouldn't codify it as a spell.

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