Completely Dysfunctional Handbook [3.5]

[Kurald Galain]

Feat<<Equipment trick||Several possible dysfunctions, well maybe||6||39||3.5>>

You should reword this to the much funnier (and more RAW-accurate) "Carrying an anvil gives you a bonus on climbing checks"

[nedz]

You should reword this to the much funnier (and more RAW-accurate) "Carrying an anvil gives you a bonus on climbing checks"

Well IIRC you did list several other features, and lots of people complained about it not being a dysfunction for various reasons. Now they were possibly right because: no house-rule required — but I've changed it anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

Well IIRC you did list several other features, and lots of people complained about it not being a dysfunction for various reasons. Now they were possibly right because: no house-rule required — but I've changed it anyway.

Meh, the only counterarguments were "nuh uh" and "well, the evasion ability is also ridiculous"

But if you want to get technical, the dysfunctions are

• (1) the notion that climbers routinely use a counterweight, which as any rock climber or parkour runner will tell you is completely not the case;
• (2) only anvils can be used as a counterweight, instead of rocks or anything heavy that you may have available;
• (3) it requires specific training to tie an anvil to a rope; and
• (4) the counterweight must weigh exactly 50 pounds, regardless of whether the climbing creature is a 28-pound halfling or a 350-pound half-orc wearing plate mail.

[Debatra]

Martial Strike

Allows infinite healing

2

28

3.5

I can't seem to find this feat or any reference to it other than here and the second thread.

[nedz]

I can't seem to find this feat or any reference to it other than here and the second thread.

That would be because it's a Devoted Spirit Stance and not a feat.

I'll fix the handbook at some point.

[rrwoods]

Also that stance is named "martial spirit". I was wondering what a stance was doing with the word "strike" in the name.

[nedz]

OK - two errors. At least that one is not mine

[Story]

Meh, the only counterarguments were "nuh uh" and "well, the evasion ability is also ridiculous"

But if you want to get technical, the dysfunctions are

• (1) the notion that climbers routinely use a counterweight, which as any rock climber or parkour runner will tell you is completely not the case;
• (2) only anvils can be used as a counterweight, instead of rocks or anything heavy that you may have available;
• (3) it requires specific training to tie an anvil to a rope; and
• (4) the counterweight must weigh exactly 50 pounds, regardless of whether the climbing creature is a 28-pound halfling or a 350-pound half-orc wearing plate mail.

Could you explain the anvil trick please? I haven't heard of it before.

[Kurald Galain]

Could you explain the anvil trick please? I haven't heard of it before.

Well, there's this feat called Equipment Trick, which is basically a list of items you could carry and tricks you could do with it. Whereas most tricks are for commonly carried items like a rope or a sunrod, the designer who wrote that decided to put a friggin' anvil on the list as well, and then started thinking of things you could do with an anvil (and only with an anvil). For some obscure reason, likely the fact that the designer has never climbed anything in his life ever, he decided that an anvil (and only an anvil) gives you a bonus to climb checks.

So yes. Carrying an anvil gives you a bonus to climb checks. Wile E. Coyote would be proud!

[grarrrg]

ArchetypesBrawler-Exemplar, Grants Teamwork feats gained from Martial Flexibility. Martial Flexibility can't grant Teamwork feats

Not a dysfunction.
Martial Flexibility grants "Combat" feats.
Exemplar grants "Teamwork feats gained from Martial Flexibility"
"Combat" and "Teamwork" are NOT mutually exclusive.

Prestige Classes
Horizon Walker, Underground Terrain Mastery is a bit strange

Nitpick: Actually Underground Terrain Dominance feature.

[nedz]

Not a dysfunction.
Martial Flexibility grants "Combat" feats.
Exemplar grants "Teamwork feats gained from Martial Flexibility"
"Combat" and "Teamwork" are NOT mutually exclusive.

Wrong thread, unless you think that the Handbook has misrepresented the original dysfunction.
This was the original post.

Nitpick: Actually Underground Terrain Dominance feature.

I don't understand your comment ?
The Original post referred to the Darkvision anomaly, though it doesn't seem to match with the SRD or DMG — now that I check.

This handbook just summarises the debates in the discussion threads and stops us going over the same ground — well most of the time anyway.

[grarrrg]

Wrong thread, unless you think that the Handbook has misrepresented the original dysfunction.
This was the original post.

The "original dysfunction" is not a dysfunction.
I assume the root cause was that it was assumed that a Feat can be either a Combat feat or a Teamwork feat. But feats can be both, thus there is no dysfunction present, and it should be removed from the handbook.
A reply has been added to the current discussion thread.

I don't understand your comment ?
The Original post referred to the Darkvision anomaly, though it doesn't seem to match with the SRD or DMG — now that I check.

The specific post referred to the Pathfinder Horizon Walker.
In PF the 'problem' ability is "Terrain Dominance" and not "Terrain Mastery", which is what I requested a fix on.

Although looking at the 3.5 Horizon Walker, it has similar issue:
"You have 60-foot darkvision, or 120-foot darkvision if you already had darkvision from another source."
If you have 120ft. Darkvision is will do nothing, if you have greater than 120ft. it is a downgrade.

Either way the 'Underground' option for Horizon WalkerS has issues.
For sake of brevity AND covering both version perhaps something along the lines of "Choosing Underground Terrain to increase Darkvision may not actually increase Darkvision"

[nedz]

The "original dysfunction" is not a dysfunction.
I assume the root cause was that it was assumed that a Feat can be either a Combat feat or a Teamwork feat. But feats can be both, thus there is no dysfunction present, and it should be removed from the handbook.
A reply has been added to the current discussion thread.

I'll await the outcome of the discussion.

The specific post referred to the Pathfinder Horizon Walker.
In PF the 'problem' ability is "Terrain Dominance" and not "Terrain Mastery", which is what I requested a fix on.

Although looking at the 3.5 Horizon Walker, it has similar issue:
"You have 60-foot darkvision, or 120-foot darkvision if you already had darkvision from another source."
If you have 120ft. Darkvision is will do nothing, if you have greater than 120ft. it is a downgrade.

Either way the 'Underground' option for Horizon WalkerS has issues.
For sake of brevity AND covering both version perhaps something along the lines of "Choosing Underground Terrain to increase Darkvision may not actually increase Darkvision"

Ah — I was looking at the 3.5 SRD. I'll pick this up the next time I do an update.

[Jormengand]

I'm just gonna put in the code for the table lines so you can copy them in, rather than trying to make them into a table. This takes us up to (and including, though there are none on the page) thread 7, page 8.

Races:

[tr][td]Numerous[/td][td]No specified age category tables and/or height/weight charts.[/td][td]6[/td][td]48[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Templates:


[tr][td]Lycanthrope[/td][td]Allows giants to revert to their humanoid form[/td][td]7[/td][td]6[/td][td][/td][/tr]

Classes:

[tr][td]Numerous[/td][td]No specified wealth at level 1[/td][td]6[/td][td]48[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Numerous[/td][td]No definition of "Affected" might mean that some spells, such as illusions, sequester, fly, bane either affect random people for no good reason, or might mean they're useless because they don't affect anyone but the subject. It's not clear which.[/td][td]7[/td][td]4[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]Arcane Trickster[/td][td]Can use Ranged Legerdemain twice per day, but only once per day.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Barbarian[/td][td]If a barbarian would get Improved Uncanny Dodge, but has Uncanny Dodge, they get Improved Uncanny Dodge instead of Improved Uncanny Dodge.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bard[/td][td]Spells have verbal componts, except when they don't.[/td][td]6[/td][td]48[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Cleric[/td][td]You can't get spells from demigods, but can get them from no god at all.[/td][td]7[/td][td]4[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Druid[/td][td]"A thousand faces" ability is and isn't an illusion.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Eldritch Knight, Loremaster, Mystic Theurge, Thaumaturge[/td][td]Does and doesn't raise CL.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Horizon Walker[/td][td]Fatigues you but you're immune[/td][td]7[/td][td]3[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Hulking Hurler[/td][td]Can catch weapons, but no mention of how.[/td][td]6[/td][td]43[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Master Thrower[/td][td]Gets snatch arrows even if it doesn't meet the prerequisites. Snatch arrows doesn't work without the prerequisites.[/td][td]6[/td][td]40[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Monk[/td][td]If you're an outsider, at 20th level you are unlike other outsiders in that you can be brought back from the dead as though you were an outsider.[/td][td]7[/td][td]1[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Monk[/td][td]If you're a construct, at 20th level you can be brought back from the dead as though you were a construct, who can't be brought back from the dead.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Stalker of Kharash[/td][td]Track Evil allows you to track creatures with "Normal" evil auras, which don't exist, but not "Faint" or "Moderate" which do.[/td][td]6[/td][td]42[/td][td]3.0[/td][/tr]

Archetypes:

[tr][td]Snake/Wolf druids[/td][td]Can't take their namesakes as domains[/td][td]6[/td][td]43[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Traits:

[tr][td]Adopted[/td][td]Improbable combinations (Eg tusked elves, dwarves who can spit ice)[/td][td]6[/td][td]41[/td][td]PF[/td][/tr]

Feats

[tr][td]Combat style feats[/td][td]Some feats are combat and style, but not combat style.[/td][td]7[/td][td]2[/td][td]PF[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Tireless[/td][td]Fatigues you but you're immune[/td][td]7[/td][td]3[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]

Spells:

[tr][td]Preparing Divine Spells[/td][td]General rule is contradicted by every class who would use it.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]PF[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]Acid Sheathe[/td][td]You can breathe in space.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Aiming At the Target[/td][td]Does and doesn't require speech.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Amanuensis[/td][td]Invalidates itself the moment it begins.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Amplify[/td][td]Everything is louder but no-one notices; You can take a save even if the spell doesn't affect you.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Anarchic/Axiomatic/Bless/Curse water[/td][td]Don't work if water isn't in a flask.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Animate Breath[/td][td]Personal, but targets your breath weapon.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Animate Dead[/td][td]Destroys the creature as it creates it.[/td][td]7[/td][td]6[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Aspect of the Werebeast[/td][td]If you have a bite, can free-action trip. This doesn't require you to make any bite attacks.[/td][td]7[/td][td]3[/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Create undead[/td][td]Can make a deathshead only within narrow CL band[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Enthrall[/td][td]If anyone, whether your ally or your direst enemy, attacks a creature you've enthralled, then each enthralled creature becomes unfriendly - even if they were hostile before they were enthralled - and every creature with 4+ HD or 16+ Wis turns hostile even if they weren't enthralled. No-one's sure who they're hostile towards.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Lightning Leap[/td][td]Odd combos with mastery of shaping or sculpt spell[/td][td]6[/td][td]48[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Secure Shelter[/td][td]"Cure" in name, so valid for spontaneous conversion.[/td][td]6[/td][td]46[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Spell Worm[/td][td]Creature takes standard actions and makes decisions without them, or anyone else, noticing.[/td][td]6[/td][td]46[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Powers:

[tr][td]Form of Doom[/td][td]+10 to disguise but you can't use it to disguise.[/td][td]6[/td][td]42[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Utterance:

[tr][td]Temporal Twist[/td][td]Allows creature to make an "Attack", which includes casting epic spells with days-long cast times.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]

Equipment:

[tr][td]Arrowdeath flail[/td][td]You can deflect arrows, but only if you're not wielding it properly.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Helm of Opposite Alignment[/td][td]Not mind-affecting[/td][td]7[/td][td]7[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Rods[/td][td]Always weigh 5 lb, even if they're massive or tiny.[/td][td]6[/td][td]48[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Thrown weapons[/td][td]Require no proficiency; any weapon that has ever been thrown requires no proficiency[/td][td]6[/td][td]42-43[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Maneuvers and stances:

[tr][td]Giant Killing Style[/td][td]Lasts for the rest of your turn; that's not how stances work.[/td][td]6[/td][td]42-43[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Leaping Dragon Stance[/td][td]Enhancement bonus to jump checks in feet: may make vertical jumps way better than intended.[/td][td]6[/td][td]43[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Monsters:

[tr][td]Balors[/td][td]Sword is part of the Balor's treasure, but doesn't exist if the Balor isn't wielding it and the Balor's Death Throes will destroy it anyway.[/td][td]6[/td][td]41[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bears[/td][td]High chance to fail to climb trees.[/td][td]6[/td][td]41[/td][td]PF[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Gargoyles[/td][td]You can take a spot check to notice that undead gargoyles are alive.[/td][td]6[/td][td]46[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Trilloch[/td][td]Multiple dysfunctions, mainly involving quickened death knell[/td][td]7[/td][td]6-7[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Werewolf zombies[/td][td]Can and can't be in hybrid form[/td][td]7[/td][td]6[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Misc:

[tr][td]Acid Effects[/td][td]Deals true damage, not acid damage.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Catching on fire[/td][td]Deals true damage, not fire damage.[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Cold Dangers[/td][td]Deals true damage, but you can apply your cold resistance anyway[/td][td]6[/td][td]47[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Dodge bonuses[/td][td]Can't be granted by spells, but there are an inordinate number which do anyway.*[/td][td]6[/td][td]48[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Falling 9 feet[/td][td]Deals no damage[/td][td]7[/td][td]1[/td][td]3.P[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Familiars[/td][td]Can't get skills from high INT, problematic for ex-vermin.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Fascinated[/td][td]Non-sitting creatures are immune.[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Injury poisons/diseases[/td][td]Can and can't be transferred by 0-damage attacks[/td][td]7[/td][td]2[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Languages[/td][td]You can speak more languages than are in the list from which you choose them.[/td][td]6[/td][td]44-45[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Lava and magma[/td][td]Fire resist grants immunity to all damage done by lava/magma, even if it lands on you and does falling damage.[/td][td]7[/td][td]1[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Petrified[/td][td]If you're turned back with bits missing, you're dealt damage. No-one knows how much.[/td][td]7[/td][td]1[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

[Debatra]

[tr][td]Numerous[/td][td]No definition of "Affected" might mean that some spells, such as illusions, sequester, fly, bane either affect random people for no good reason, or might mean they're useless because they don't affect anyone but the subject. It's not clear which.[/td][td]7[/td][td]4[/td][td]3.5[/td][/tr]

Are we really going to include that nonsense discussion in the handbook?

[Troacctid]

Yeah, I thought we agreed that wasn't a dysfunction.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, I thought we agreed that wasn't a dysfunction.

Indeed. Finding novel ways to misunderstand basic grammar does not a dysfunctional rule make.

[Jormengand]

Right, except that it's not misunderstanding it. It's using the definition of affect exactly how it's used in the English language (and yes, if you use any of the other definitions, it's still dysfunctional). If you read it exactly as it is written, without making excuses for it, it's dysfunctional. That's the very definition of a RAW dysfunction.

[Troacctid]

It's using the definition of affect exactly how it's used in the English language

It's not using "affect" the way "it" is used in the English language, it's using "affect" the way "affect" is used. How would your way even make sense?

[Kurald Galain]

Right, except that it's not misunderstanding it. It's using the definition of affect exactly how it's used in the English language (and yes, if you use any of the other definitions, it's still dysfunctional). If you read it exactly as it is written, without making excuses for it, it's dysfunctional. That's the very definition of a RAW dysfunction.

No, it's really not. If you over-analyze any sentence and assume they're written in Legalese rather than English, pretty much every single rule would become dysfunctional.

[Jormengand]

How would your way even make sense?

It wouldn't, that's why it's dysfunctional.

EDIT: If you like, I can change it to something neutral like ""Affect" not being defined causes problems". Because it clearly has.

[Troacctid]

It wouldn't, that's why it's dysfunctional.

EDIT: If you like, I can change it to something neutral like ""Affect" not being defined causes problems". Because it clearly has.

First off, I like a lot of things, but my likes and dislikes aren't especially relevant to the RAW. Second, words and phrases can't have alignments by RAW, only characters can. Third, "affect" is defined, and fourth, it only causes problems if you intentionally misread the rules, which is not RAW. Lastly, while the use of "it" has caused some problems in some cases, those problems are usually related to pronoun ambiguity and have nothing to do with "affect".

[Jormengand]

Third, "affect" is defined, and fourth, it only causes problems if you intentionally misread the rules, which is not RAW.

No, Target is defined in terms of affect, but affect isn't defined itself. And I'm not intentionally misreading them, I'm just goddamn reading them.

[Troacctid]

Okay, so you're not intentionally misreading them, you're unintentionally misreading them in an attempt to read them in an intentionally obtuse way that the RAW doesn't support. Either way, it's a misreading, not a dysfunction.

[Gadora]

Look, this was argued in the thread and determined not a dysfunction. Being stubborn will not change that.

[Jormengand]

Okay, so you're not intentionally misreading them, you're unintentionally misreading them in an attempt to read them in an intentionally obtuse way that the RAW doesn't support. Either way, it's a misreading, not a dysfunction.

Look, this was argued in the thread and determined not a dysfunction. Being stubborn will not change that.

Okay, will someone provide a valid argument why it's not dysfunctional, then? Because I've been quite clear how it is, and all I've got back are accusations of misreading.

[Renen]

Jormen, can you please repeat the disfuntion to me and explain why it is so?
I am interested in providing my opinion, but I hope you could just restate your position and reasoning to me so I know whats up.

[Jormengand]

Jormen, can you please repeat the disfuntion to me and explain why it is so?
I am interested in providing my opinion, but I hope you could just restate your position and reasoning to me so I know whats up.

Sure.

Take a look at, for example, Sequester.

"When cast, this spell not only prevents divination spells from working to detect or locate the creature or object affected by sequester, it also renders the affected creature or object invisible to any form of sight or seeing (as the invisibility spell)... Creatures affected by sequester become comatose and are effectively in a state of suspended animation until the spell wears off or is dispelled. "

Now, what is an affected creature? Nothing actually tells us. That's fine, because if nothing tells us, we use English. There are numerous possible meanings of "Affected" (In love, Put on a show of, etcetera) but the relevant one is something like "Influenced or touched by an external factor." Now, if you are capable of seeing a non-sequestered orc, you might attack it, but if you don't, you ignore it. Clearly, you have been "Influenced by an external factor" in the form of a Sequester spell. That means that you are "A creature or object affected by Sequester". That means that divinations don't work on you and you're invisible and comatose.

[Troacctid]

Right, and it's not dysfunctional because that's not actually the relevant definition for that context. The relevant definition is "to act on"; the spell is only acting on its subjects, not on anyone tangentially related to its casting.

[Jormengand]

Right, and it's not dysfunctional because that's not actually the relevant definition for that context. The relevant definition is "to act on"; the spell is only acting on its subjects, not on anyone tangentially related to its casting.

Except that I can't find a dictionary that provides that definition on its own. Google says that affected is what I just said it was and affect is "Have an effect on, make a difference to," the Oxford Dictionary says the exact same, verbatim, for both of them. The one definition that does provide "To act on" clarifies: "To act on; produce an effect or change in." Again, this is consistent with our invisible orc.