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    Default [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    For a new game we're playing, I really wanted to play a Goblin, and seeing the feat Roll With It enamored me of making a character built around Acrobatics and bouncing all around the battlefield. 20 point buy, all books allowed subject to DM ruling, alignment restrictions are probably gone (i.e. for monk). Starting level is 3, campaign will be in the Underdark.

    In another couple of levels it'll start to shine, as I'll get Scout's Charge and Death from Above, meaning that the normal round will go something like:
    1. Make Acrobatics check to jump charge foe from one square above, gaining sneak attack and +5 to hit with Death From Above
    2. Be attacked in melee, if hit roll away from the damage using Roll With It and almost certainly go 2 squares or more
    3. Rinse and repeat


    Until then, he'll be a trifle underpowered in combat, although he's not terrible, and be quite sneaky/mobile, good for scouting and assassination. Still bouncy, in other words, just not AS bouncy

    Bogun the Bouncy
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    Male Goblin (Cave Crawler/Tree Runner)
    Monk (Sohei) 1/Ninja (Scout) 2
    CN Small Humanoid (goblinoid)
    Init +8 (acts on all surprise rounds), Senses darkvision, Perception +8

    AC 19; Touch 18, Flatfooted 14 (Bracers of Armor +1, Wis +2, Dex +5, Small Size +1)
    HP 21 (3d8+3)
    Fort +3, Ref +12, Will +4
    Defensive Abilities Roll With It, Deflect Arrows

    Offense
    Speed 20 ft (30 when charging), Climb 10 ft (20 when charging)
    Unarmed Strike +7 to hit, 1d4+1 (20/x2), B
    Flurry of Blows +6/+6, 1d4+1/1d4+1, B
    Masterwork Wakizashi +8 to hit, 1d4+1 (18-20/x2), S or P, Deadly
    Masterwork Shuriken +8 to hit, 2 (20/x2), P, 10 ft (35, some poisoned)
    Flurry of Shuriken +7/+7, 2/2, P, 10 ft
    Masterwork Composite Longbow +8 to hit, 1d6+1 (20/x3), P, 110 ft (20)
    Special Attacks Flurry of Blows, Sneak Attack +1d6 (+2 during surprise round or before target has acted in combat, Goblin favored class)

    Statistics
    Str 12, Dex 21, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
    BAB +3; CMB +1; CMD 18
    Traits Reactionary, Charger
    Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Weapon Finesse, Roll With It
    Ninja Tricks Acrobatic Master
    Skills Acrobatics +15 (+4 racial, 1 ki for +20, always running start), Climb +15 (+8 racial), Craft (Alchemy) +4, Disable Device +10, Escape Artist +9, Linguistics +5, Perception +8, Sleight of Hand +10, Stealth +15 (+4 size)
    Languages Goblin, Common, Undercommon
    Special Qualities Devoted Guardian (always act during surprise round, bonus on Init = 1/2 monk levels), Poison Use, Ki Pool (Wis-based, 3 points)

    Combat GearMasterwork Wakizashi, MW Shuriken (35), Longbow (20 arrows), Bracers of Armor +1
    Other Gear Tree Feather Token, MW Backpack, Pathfinder's Kit
    Any suggestions, pointers, or spotted mistakes are welcome!
    Last edited by Da'Shain; 2013-02-05 at 01:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    I don't believe that the +1 trait bonus to initiative from Veteran of Battle stacks with the +2 trait bonus to initiative from Reactive.

    You might consider taking the "Bouncy" trait? Your DM might allow the 1d4 damage you take from stopping suddenly to be counted as falling damage.

    Also, unless I'm miscounting, you didn't spend 1 skill point.
    Last edited by Baroncognito; 2013-02-04 at 03:03 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Baroncognito View Post
    I don't believe that the +1 trait bonus to initiative from Veteran of Battle stacks with the +2 trait bonus to initiative from Reactive.

    You might consider taking the "Bouncy" trait? Your DM might allow the 1d4 damage you take from stopping suddenly to be counted as falling damage.

    Also, unless I'm miscounting, you didn't spend 1 skill point.
    Curses, you're right! I thought they stacked as long as they were two different trait types, my bad. Still, Vet of Battle essentially gives you Quickdraw in surprise rounds, so it might be worth it anyway. Bouncy is ridiculously underwhelming (although I guess it would fit with the character concept); if I was going to take another Goblin trait, I think it would be Big Ears for RP purposes.

    However I am considering Charger, and then using the alternate race feature for a climb speed, since the campaign will take place at least partially in the Underdark. With a Climb speed and my ridiculous Acrobatics, I can pretty much hop around caves at will.

    As far as I can tell, I spent them all. 40 skill points total.
    Last edited by Da'Shain; 2013-02-04 at 03:29 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Ah, I was including the +1 bonus from No Trace in getting to 10 points of Disguise.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Ah, I forgot about that. Adjusted for it. And I decided on the climb speed. Although curse the fact that a climb speed skill bonus is a racial bonus! Whyyyy.
    Last edited by Da'Shain; 2013-02-04 at 03:41 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    You listed your armor as +2 in the AC detail and +1 in the Gear section.
    Quote Originally Posted by doko239 View Post
    Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards
    If I'm a monk using lettuce as an Improvised Thrown Weapon, does that make me a salad-tosser ???
    Les Goblins Toxiques : A geek blog (in French) where I write about RPG, M:TG and such. Also has a podcast / radio show. RIP 2012 We had a great run but RL caught up with us!

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    Ah, I forgot about that. Adjusted for it. And I decided on the climb speed. Although curse the fact that a climb speed skill bonus is a racial bonus! Whyyyy.
    Yeah, but to be fair, it is a little odd to be a cave-dwelling, tree-dwelling goblin.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Thanks. Fixed.

    Also, I've been pondering one level of monk for the feats, saves and unarmed proficiency; that way I can get an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and that doesn't need to have a +1 enhancement before being enchanted with Agile! I definitely want to only take one or two levels of monk; which archetypes would be best? Or just straight monk?
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    If you don't want to be lawful, your only choice is Martial Artist.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Baroncognito View Post
    Yeah, but to be fair, it is a little odd to be a cave-dwelling, tree-dwelling goblin.
    He lives on giant mushrooms! Actually I think that'll be part of his backstory now, haha.

    Assume the lawful requirement is dropped, because my DM (rightly) thinks it's stupid. Also has to be only 1 level of monk, as in order for this build to work it needs Ninja 4 for Scout's Charge.
    Last edited by Da'Shain; 2013-02-04 at 04:10 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    I'd be tempted to go for Sohei then, you'd always get to act in the surprise round.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Oh, yeah, that's nice. Edited the original to reflect a Sohei level.

    He's still not a powerhouse, but he's a lot nastier than he looks, haha. Flying boots to the head abound.
    Last edited by Da'Shain; 2013-02-04 at 04:40 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    If you're taking a level of Sohei, you may want to consider pairing it with the Bandit archetype instead of Scout; gains you a full-round action in surprise round instead of a standard.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    I'd love to, but the main reason I find this build hilarious is because of the interplay between Roll With It, Scout's Charge, Ninja Acrobatics and Death from Above.

    Basically, Scout's Charge means I get sneak attack whenever I charge, Death from Above combine with Ninja Acrobatics means I make a jump check every time I charge in order to get +5 to hit instead of +2 (as I perform a flying sneak attack boot to the head). Then, if the person I attacked hits me in melee, I can make another Acrobatics check and use Roll With It to avoid the damage by rolling away a number of feet equal to the amount of damage done. I then start the next round far enough away to charge (most of the time, I'd imagine); rinse, repeat.

    So not only is this guy bouncy in that he'll be climbing and jumping all over the place out of combat, but in combat he'll be bouncing off his targets for sneak attacks. I'm sure it won't be game breaking but it'll be loads of fun!
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Edited first post with updated game info. Seems we won't be starting at 5th (shame, that's when it kicks in!) and with a lower point buy, but I like it all the same.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    I currently have a Goblin Viv. Beastmorph Alchemist. He uses Roll With It to launch himself airborne ("up" is a direction...) and has wings. He also fights with natural weapons thanks to the relatively inexpensive Amulet of Mighty Fists w/ the Agile property on it. Soon, he will also have pounce, which will allow him to follow up Roll with It w/ a full attack despite being limited to a standard action.

    You might want to consider Alchemist as well. I think it works better w/ goblin, and the goblin's cha penalty hurts ninja.

    EDIT: I consider my character a "ninja", he just isn't the class. Don't get too hung up on labels.
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2013-02-04 at 09:19 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Aren't you Staggered after using the Roll with it feat. How do you get by that woefully horrid condition?
    Last edited by Chained Birds; 2013-02-04 at 09:45 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I currently have a Goblin Viv. Beastmorph Alchemist. He uses Roll With It to launch himself airborne ("up" is a direction...) and has wings. He also fights with natural weapons thanks to the relatively inexpensive Amulet of Mighty Fists w/ the Agile property on it. Soon, he will also have pounce, which will allow him to follow up Roll with It w/ a full attack despite being limited to a standard action.

    You might want to consider Alchemist as well. I think it works better w/ goblin, and the goblin's cha penalty hurts ninja.

    EDIT: I consider my character a "ninja", he just isn't the class. Don't get too hung up on labels.
    Sounds pretty awesome! I'll be going for Amulet of Mighty Fists with Agile as well when the game gets a few levels higher, but at level 3 WBL is such that it's impossible. I really like the idea of using Roll With It to launch upward, and then drop back down in the following round, it fits the bouncing theme I'm going for.

    I want my guy to be a more "natural" ninja, though, and just have seemingly extraordinary physical abilities as opposed to out and out transformations. I'm not going for high-op here, just a concept that'll hold true. Plus, I discovered that one level of Monk means that you can choose whether your ki pool is based on Wis or Cha ... which means I dumped the heck out of Cha, hehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Aren't you Staggered after using the Roll with it feat. How do you get by that woefully horrid condition?
    Somehow I overlooked that all day! Thanks for pointing it out. It does put a crimp on the build, but not an insurmountable one; if he's knocked away, he can still draw a shuriken as a free action and attack with it, before charging the turn after that. Also StreamOfTheSky's idea about using it to be launched upward could take care of that problem: be launched up, then next round automatically fall back to the ground and take your attack anyway.

    It's the kind of trick where overusing it will probably get the DM ban hammer out, but pulling it out every once in a while will probably be good for a laugh or an awesome moment.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    Somehow I overlooked that all day! Thanks for pointing it out. It does put a crimp on the build, but not an insurmountable one; if he's knocked away, he can still draw a shuriken as a free action and attack with it, before charging the turn after that.
    You could always just pinball from one enemy to another.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Baroncognito View Post
    You could always just pinball from one enemy to another.
    If the amount of damage permits, then yeah, that'll happen ... it's gotta be pretty precise, though, or else I either hit the enemy and fall over or provoke an AoO from them.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    You don't need free movement to attack next turn. The "partial charge" rules allow for a charge of up to your speed as a standard when limited to to only a standard action (in fact, you can even do it as a move action if limited to only a move).

    That is where the pounce comes in handy. Pounce gives a full attack at the end of a charge, so being limited to a standard no longer even matters.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    You don't need free movement to attack next turn. The "partial charge" rules allow for a charge of up to your speed as a standard when limited to to only a standard action (in fact, you can even do it as a move action if limited to only a move).

    That is where the pounce comes in handy. Pounce gives a full attack at the end of a charge, so being limited to a standard no longer even matters.
    Can you do this while flying above the guy? As in a partial charge from the sky.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Sure. Why could you not? You can also 5 ft step while flying, though not in an upwards direction due to it costing more movement. Flying is just a special form of moving, with its own skill and some additional rules. The general rules for moving still apply. Ditto for swimming and so forth.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    You don't need free movement to attack next turn. The "partial charge" rules allow for a charge of up to your speed as a standard when limited to to only a standard action (in fact, you can even do it as a move action if limited to only a move).

    That is where the pounce comes in handy. Pounce gives a full attack at the end of a charge, so being limited to a standard no longer even matters.
    Huh. Another portion of the rules that I have always overlooked. I was under the impression that a charge in Pathfinder was always a full round action. Awesome.

    Pounce would of course be highly useful, but the kind of shenanigans I would have to pull to get it with this character ... I doubt my DM would be happy, and even if so I'd have to completely overhaul the direction he's going. My specific flavor of character concept does not really fit in with it. Although I'm very surprised there isn't a Ninja Trick for it.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    That reminds me that Roll with it does make for a pretty interesting water escape.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    You can get Pounce easily enough by dipping Synthesist Summoner, but it will lock your physical stats at 12/16/13 before magic items. And depending on how your DM is on the RAI vs. RAW scale, he may rule that being a Synth 1 means you have a BAB of +1, even though it's almost certainly the same situation as monk's flurry BAB (when core first came out, by RAW a Fighter 19 / Monk 1 had BAB +1 on a flurry, paizo then clarified that the flurry BAB replaces monk BAB, not your entire BAB; I assume the same was intended w/ multiclass synthesists).

    But that would make you even weirder than Alchemist would.

    Ninja at 10+ does get the ability to go greater invis as a swift, allowing for one of the few easy ways in PF to full attack w/ ranged sneak attacks. I don't know why, but ever since 3.5, ninja in D&D has had a bent towards ranged combat rather than melee.

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    That reminds me that Roll with it does make for a pretty interesting water escape.
    Water escape? Do go on.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    You can get Pounce easily enough by dipping Synthesist Summoner ... [etc.]

    But that would make you even weirder than Alchemist would.

    Ninja at 10+ does get the ability to go greater invis as a swift, allowing for one of the few easy ways in PF to full attack w/ ranged sneak attacks. I don't know why, but ever since 3.5, ninja in D&D has had a bent towards ranged combat rather than melee.
    Yeah, sadly there's no simple Barbarian dip for pounce anymore. It's a shame, too, as that would probably help and be in keeping with my concept, I feel. But out-and-out magical means of obtaining it are not on the table.

    I think the idea is that Ninjas are assassins and thus have to be able to sneak attack at both short and (relatively) long range, as opposed to Rogues who encompass a broader variety of archetypes and thus whose sneak attack is more a simple "dirty fighting" mechanic which can be refined through ACFs.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    Water escape? Do go on.
    Well, get carried underwater and need a way to the surface? Have an enemy hit you in melee and propel yourself out of the water like some sort of wierd amphibious dolphin.

    Or you could have your fighter friend hit you across the water and skip along the surface like a smooth stone.
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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chained Birds View Post
    Well, get carried underwater and need a way to the surface? Have an enemy hit you in melee and propel yourself out of the water like some sort of wierd amphibious dolphin.

    Or you could have your fighter friend hit you across the water and skip along the surface like a smooth stone.
    Say you're being grappled and dragged into the depths of the ocean. You have no chance in hell of breaking out through escape artist or CMB due to the foe's massive CMD.

    Do something to provoke an AoO. Roll With It off of the damage dealt to escape. Actually, if the foe isn't wise to your games and deals unarmed damage with a successful grapple check (as the rules allow him to do), you can just Roll With It out of the situation from that.

    It's a nifty trick. I'm not sure if it's 100% clearly rules legal or not, but it's so awesome I think most DMs will let it slide due to Rule of Cool. Mine has already in this exact sort of situation (minus the water environment).

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    Default Re: [PF] Bouncy Goblin Ninja! Soliciting suggestions

    I also like how you just need an Immediate Action to pull it off. So even if you are grappled, entangled, etc. you can still bounce away. If you get Uncanny Dodge or a way to make it so you are never Flat-footed, you could surprise the heck out of a would-be assassin trying to take you out from behind.
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