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Thread: Am I crazy? DA2

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    Default Am I crazy? DA2

    I must be nuts... But I am contemplating actually restarting DA2 at some point (probably after going through all 3 ME games again). As you all know my initialy impressions of this game is not good, to say the least, but I LOVED the voice acting and it feels like I need to go through it at least once if I am to get DA3 when it comes out.

    I DO think that the only way for me to be able to make myself play it is as a Hawke that considers everyone else except his sibling and the Guard chick to be complete idiots, and basically smile and nod when they say something. And never ever use the whitehaired pretty boy (Is he skippable, btw?) or Anders. Basically I am going to mentally ignore the story altogether and go 100% Snarky at all situations just for the LULZ. Since the story is horrible AND irrelevant.

    So for now, just a quick question: What DLCs are essential accoerding to you guys?
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    Does Hawke gets to say "**** this" and burns down Kirkwall?
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    Fenris can be totally avoided. Just don't recruit him, or don't do bait and switch which is a secondary quest.

    On DLCs I think that the global agreement is that Legacy was pretty good. I personally also liked Mark of the Assassin, but this is cause I have a slight crush on Felicia Day and really like her voice acting.

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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    None of them are essential. Legacy is probably the only one I could see have any real impact on DA3, if that's what you're interested in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    None of them are essential. Legacy is probably the only one I could see have any real impact on DA3, if that's what you're interested in.
    That's what I thought.

    And Grif: No, but that really should have been an option. That, or after Act I just go "Oh, the Blight is over, let's head home!" and then the game stops.

    Those are, to me, the only two paths that really makes sense in the game: Either kill them all (deliberately) since Godwinian Templars vs Terrorist Mages seems to be delierately written so I cannot care, at all, for either side. I know it is supposedly written to make a "hard" choice, but they tried too hard.
    They all need to die, painfully, together with Anders. Best option would be to literally kill every living being within 20 miles of nuke Kirkwall. The city is just too corrupt to save.

    Also, in Act II I remember I was asked by people "why are you still here?" and I could for the life of me motivate why Hawke, indeed, had not gone back to Ferelden by the end of Act I.

    So, apart from all the mechanical flaws of the game, I would love to mod in the following options:

    At the end of Act I: Leave Kirkwall and go back home with your family. Live a happy life, die of old age.

    At the culmination of Merril's quest: Shop the head off of Merrill and present it to the crowd.

    At the very end: Add two choices: Kill Everyone and take over the city, and Just Leave and side with whoever wins.

    I would also have the option to save my mother, but that WAS in the game and Bioware removed it because "everyone would pick that option". *Enraged Facepalm*
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-02-07 at 09:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Also, in Act II I remember I was asked by people "why are you still here?" and I could for the life of me motivate why Hawke, indeed, had not gone back to Ferelden by the end of Act I.
    Surprisingly enough, I do actually agree with you here. Hawke's lack of actual motivation is easily the biggest flaw about the character - in fact it's the thing that most holds Hawke back from actually being a character.
    I would also have the option to save my mother, but that WAS in the game and Bioware removed it because "everyone would pick that option". *Enraged Facepalm*
    There was nothing with their reasoning. Those sort of options aren't choices, they're just challenges/problems that employ an in-story punishment for failing them. Their decision was then effectively either between having her be saved or not. They just chose the latter.
    Last edited by Mr.Silver; 2013-02-07 at 09:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Surprisingly enough, I do actually agree with you here. Hawke's lack of actual motivation is easily the biggest flaw about the character - in fact it's the thing that most holds Hawke back from actually being a character.

    There was nothing with their reasoning. Those sort of options aren't choices, they're just challenges/problems that employ an in-story punishment for failing them. Their decision was then effectively either between having her be saved or not. They just chose the latter.
    What disturbs me most is that they left in everything up to that point; it is obvious that it is supposed to be a bit of a murder mystery thing, but since they took out the option of realizing who the killer was in time, Hawke has a big Idiot Ball moment and can't figure out who "O" is until much later. For some reason.

    Also, though for me this was the place where I stopped playing my first playthrough (I have watched let's plays later); this is where the game tilts from "Gray and Grey writing to "Let's Troll the player for LULZ" from the writer's side, and I won't stand for that. That, and the endgame with Anders and the other option they removed: From the beginning you only had to fight the Templars if you sided with the Mages, but you had to fight both if you sided with the Templars, since Meredith would be loony enough not to trust you afterwards. But apparently due to Executive Meddling ("We need Moar Darkz and Moar Bossfight") the obligatory second betrayal by "O" was written in. Quickly.

    As for your first paragraph: You are right. That, actually, was my biggest beef with the plot: Hawke's single motivation, appart from just staying alive in the Blight, is to protect the people he or she loves. That is all done by the end of Act I.
    Besides that, the secon biggest beef is the complete lack of serious choices. DA:O had far more consequences. ME even more. But the problem is that they tie you down on a railway cart, give you NO motivation why you do what you do, and then put a rocket in your ass and fire you away along the track. And you are forced to do things that makes everything worse. All the time. And then the game ends.*

    Someone even pointed out that the marketing is a lie; you are not the champion of Kirkwall, you are some tool in the middle of the mess that desperately fails at everything and then leaves at the end. We were promised a 10 year journey to become the most powerful man in Kirkwall, with ample choices as to HOW we wanted to grasp power, and ended up a railroaded schmuck.

    And if anyone wonders, the only reason I am thinking of playing this again is due to party banter and the voice acting. As I said, Snark 100% of the time, realize that eveyone in the city are idiots, especially your companions, and that letting them die is a service to humanity. I am also thinkig I will be a Mage!Hawke and side with the Templars, just to troll Anders.

    *Edit: also, if I recall, the writers spent a lot of time bashing JRPGs for this very flaw during the marketing of DA2...
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-02-07 at 10:14 AM.
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    "HERP, DERP! NINJAAAAAAA!!!!!" - Kai Leng

    Shepard: "Wrex! Do we have mawsign?"
    Wrex: "Shepard, we have mawsign the likes of which even Reapers have never seen!"

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    I would opt for "Kill everyone" option.

    Kirkwall needs to die in a hail of nuclear righteous fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grif View Post
    nuclear righteous fire.
    There is no difference between the two.

    And yes, that option definitely should have been in the game.

    "Hey, where's Hawke?"

    BIG EXPLOSION WHERE THE WHOLE OF KIRKWALL IS SUCKED INTO THE FADE AND THE LANDSCAPE IS TURNED TO GLASS FOR 200 MILES AROUND IT FOREVER
    I would be SO happy!
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-02-07 at 10:16 AM.
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    "HERP, DERP! NINJAAAAAAA!!!!!" - Kai Leng

    Shepard: "Wrex! Do we have mawsign?"
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    Fenris can be made pretty badass with mods. One I really remember made his powered up mode make only his tattoos glow, which really made it into a cool effect. Another one gives him a longcoat rather than his armor, which I suppose may make him even worse in your approximation. Most of the game you're forced to choose between him or Mother Bear for an NPC tank, however, and not everyone is fond of the red-headed amazon. I am, but tastes vary.

    As for DLCs, I think Legacy was pretty awesome. Especially if you're an archer, because the Key looks incredible as a bow. When I played last, I used a mod that made the key level with you - it took some of the power out of it (if it doesn't scale, it has an item level several levels above you), but it meant I got to keep it and I used the Unison trick to make the Key overpowered anyway. (When selecting a powerup for the key position a character next to every upgrade stone, then save and pause the game. While paused, tell these characters to activate every stone at once. You then get all three upgrades at each stage, which nicely makes up for the loss in base item power.)

    Mark of the Assassin is fairly weak. Sure, it's a caper adventure and the game really needed a good one of those, and it's got Felicia Day as the VA for the one-shot ally, and there's some interesting things in there, but it all feels pretty mundane - DLCs should be a high point (or low point) in the character's career, not just another (albeit well-made) quest line. The one-shot NPC would be good if she weren't just a one-shot NPC, as well.

    Exiled Prince is wonderful, but flawed in one simple and irredeemable way: He's an archer. Now, archers are cool and all, but you've already got Varric, who redefines awesome, and Legacy's best Key (in my opinion) is the bow. It's really hard to find space in a party where Sebastian would be ideal. This is a pity, because his conversations are often hilarious. Not as hilarious as anything Varric has to say, but still...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    What disturbs me most is that they left in everything up to that point; it is obvious that it is supposed to be a bit of a murder mystery thing, but since they took out the option of realizing who the killer was in time, Hawke has a big Idiot Ball moment and can't figure out who "O" is until much later. For some reason.
    O is not the killer. O is the guy who's been enabling the killer because he's interested in the magic the killer's been using. I agree, that isn't given enough emphasis (which is a shame, because it would have made the mage-templar conflict in Act 3 a bit better) but nothing prevents you from 'realizing' who the killer is, because the first time you see the killer is when you track him down to his lair, by which point you're already too late. This is also pretty much when you even become aware of 'O', who Hawke doesn't meet until the end of the act anyway - at which point everyone's a bit distracted by the whole 'Qunari killing everybody' situation.
    Also, though for me this was the place where I stopped playing my first playthrough (I have watched let's plays later); this is where the game tilts from "Gray and Grey writing to "Let's Troll the player for LULZ" from the writer's side and I won't stand for that.
    I fail to see how the murder sequence constitutes 'trolling the player'. What, because it looks like you might be able to stop it but it turns out you can't? That's not trolling, that's a fairly basic story-telling device. Maybe in a game that had previously been nothing but player-empowerment you'd have a point, but that's not what DA2 is. The game makes it pretty clear that Hawke just can't fix everything.



    Besides that, the second biggest beef is the complete lack of serious choices. DA:O had far more consequences.
    No, DA:O had far more changes. It had bigger choices - pretty much the entire game world revolved around the warden's whims - but few of those choices had any significant effects beyond what flavour of disposable meatshields you could summon in the last few fights - assuming you even felt the need to do so. Or the circle tower/Redcliff link which successfully managed to turn the choices in both of those areas into a simple 'correct answer' problem. Things changed, but those changes did not have much of a real consequence to them outside of a few lines of text in the epilogue text scroll (the only exceptions to this involved those choices you made with your party members, but those were at least as well represented in DA2).


    And you are forced to do things that makes everything worse. All the time.
    As I recall, the only real situations where Hawke could be argued as making things worse involve late-game quests based around Anders and Merrill. Depending on your actions, Hawke actually makes quite a fair bit of positive difference, it's just that, once again, Hawke can't fix everything. Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall because he/she manages to stop crises before they cause too much damage, unlike the warden who personally saves at least two seperate kingdoms.
    That's really the point of DA2: it's about someone who's competent, but who is fundamentally still relatively 'normal' in terms of what they can do on the wider stage. This is very different to DA:O (where the Warden's status borders on the messianic), which is why I'm of the opinion that one of the biggest mistakes with DA2 was calling it DA2. It's not a direct sequel in narrative, nor does it follow the same themes. Of course, this is EA's marketing department we're talking about.

    also, if I recall, the writers spent a lot of time bashing JRPGs for this very flaw during the marketing of DA2
    Wouldn't surprise me. Many people involved in Western RPGs (and most fans of the genre) frequently bash JRPGs for being 'linear' (or having 'not evolved', which is particularly amusing coming from a genre that still thinks RNG-based combat in single-play games is a good idea). This is despite the fact that having a linear narrative isn't actually a bad thing; nor is it paticularly uncommon in Western RPGs. Anyway, that's another topic.
    Last edited by Mr.Silver; 2013-02-07 at 12:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    O is not the killer. O is the guy who's been enabling the killer because he's interested in the magic the killer's been using. I agree, that isn't given enough emphasis (which is a shame, because it would have made the mage-templar conflict in Act 3 a bit better) but nothing prevents you from 'realizing' who the killer is, because the first time you see the killer is when you track him down to his lair, by which point you're already too late. This is also pretty much when you even become aware of 'O', who Hawke doesn't meet until the end of the act anyway - at which point everyone's a bit distracted by the whole 'Qunari killing everybody' situation.

    I fail to see how the murder sequence constitutes 'trolling the player'. What, because it looks like you might be able to stop it but it turns out you can't? That's not trolling, that's a fairly basic story-telling device. Maybe in a game that had previously been nothing but player-empowerment you'd have a point, but that's not what DA2 is. The game makes it pretty clear that Hawke just can't fix everything.
    "Fix everything"? I can't fix ANYTHING. That's the whole point of the game. "Hawke fails at everything and then it ends".

    I know the Head Enchanter is not the killer. But since the idea from the beginning was that you could stop the murder by following the clues... Hawke has to develop brain damage all of a sudden because of it.

    I am sorry but all I get is an image of the writers sitting there ROFLing at the idea that players would hope to save mom... Also, I can only put up with so much GrimDark. Then it either goes over the top and gets funny, like 40K, or I ragequit, like DA2. Basically the idea that "mature" equals "hopeless depressionfeast" is not only false, but false advertising. As I said, I was CLEARLY promised to be able to play the Champion of Kirkwall as he or she fights for power and finally ends up on top!
    What I got was a boring yet depressing angst-ridden thing that caused me to question the mental state of the writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    No, DA:O had far more changes. It had bigger choices - pretty much the entire game world revolved around the warden's whims - but few of those choices had any significant effects beyond what flavour of disposable meatshields you could summon in the last few fights - assuming you even felt the need to do so. Or the circle tower/Redcliff link which successfully managed to turn the choices in both of those areas into a simple 'correct answer' problem. Things changed, but those changes did not have much of a real consequence to them outside of a few lines of text in the epilogue text scroll (the only exceptions to this involved those choices you made with your party members, but those were at least as well represented in DA2).
    "A few lines..." That IS the change. That IS the consequences. That is what we want. I want to know what I did actually made a difference. That it mattered. And above all I want to be ABLE to make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    As I recall, the only real situations where Hawke could be argued as making things worse involve late-game quests based around Anders and Merrill. Depending on your actions, Hawke actually makes quite a fair bit of positive difference, it's just that, once again, Hawke can't fix everything. Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall because he/she manages to stop crises before they cause too much damage, unlike the warden who personally saves at least two seperate kingdoms.
    That's really the point of DA2: it's about someone who's competent, but who is fundamentally still relatively 'normal' in terms of what they can do on the wider stage. This is very different to DA:O (where the Warden's status borders on the messianic), which is why I'm of the opinion that one of the biggest mistakes with DA2 was calling it DA2. It's not a direct sequel in narrative, nor does it follow the same themes. Of course, this is EA's marketing department we're talking about.
    EA's marketing is far better than Bioware's unfortunately. It was Bioware, not EA that came up with the "Button of Awzum" etc.

    As for the rest... The end result in DA2 would have been exactly the same if Hawke had never been born. The war between the templars and the circles would have happened anyway.

    In my first playthrough my brother dies. Then my sister dies. Then my mother dies... that's where I had it and quit permanently.

    And the premise as you write it above is truer to reality than what the marketing promised. As I said: Schmuck caught in the middle with no real power is a FAR way off from "Legendary champion of Kirkwall". I don't want to play an average schmuck. I AM an average schmuck. I want to play someone who is better than me. Otherwise I can just stare at the wall and eat chips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Fenris can be made pretty badass with mods.
    That's not the problem. The problem is that he's an angsty white-haired prettyboy with Anime hair and a big ugly two-handed sword. Hence he cannot be used. I don't do that. Period.

    As for the rest... I know about Sebastian. I got him for free since I pre-ordered the digital delux edition (which makes the fact that I never finished the game even more irritating).
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-02-07 at 04:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    "Fix everything"? I can't fix ANYTHING. That's the whole point of the game. "Hawke fails at everything and then it ends".
    I must have missed that in between fighting off the Qunari invasion, deposing an insane Meredith, cleaning up gangs on the streets, seeing that Feynriel gets a chance at life, helping Isabella become a better person, getting revenge on Bartrand with Varric, helping Fenris finally get his freedom, giving Aveline a new life, defeating all manner of ravening monsters and demons etc.

    Seriously, the statement that Hawke's presence makes no difference on the story is just flat-out wrong. This is especially true in regards to your companion characters - regardless of whether or not you personally care about them. Whether or not several live or die (including one of your siblings) depends on Hawke's actions, for example.
    I know the Head Enchanter is not the killer. But since the idea from the beginning was that you could stop the murder by following the clues... Hawke has to develop brain damage all of a sudden because of it.
    What clues? The trail has basically run dead by the time your mother gets targeted (in fact it's entirely possible you think you've already got the killer, depending on your previous actions). All you know is that the killer is male, a blood mage and sends flowers to his victims. You can't track it to Orsino because at this point you've haven't met him, nor do you have any real reason to suspect him (because you don't know what the killer is doing with his victims, which is what Orsino is interested in). You don't even your mother's a target. The only potential 'idiot ball' moment is waiting until dark to go searching, and if you let your initial suspect go free you don't even have to do that (you can just go and enlist him).


    I am sorry but all I get is an image of the writers sitting there ROFLing at the idea that players would hope to save mom...
    I never got that impression at all, everything in the game presents it as a serious event. The emotional cues all treat it as a 'be sad now' time rather than a 'you suck' time. It's rather like Ilium in Mass Effect 3, really.
    Also, I can only put up with so much Grimdark
    Fair enough, everyone has different darkness thresholds, but that's not a game's responsibility. If you're going into a world that is explicitly classed as 'dark fantasy', then you can probably expect some less than happy things going on, as the things that happen to Hawke's siblings should probably have tipped you off.

    Basically the idea that "mature" equals "hopeless depressionfeast" is not only false, but false advertising.
    Mature doesn't equal buckets of blood either, but you wouldn't know that given how DA:O was marketted. What mature can mean, at least in terms of media, is 'dealing with things not suitable for a younger audience'. So not really false advertising.

    As I said, I was CLEARLY promised to be able to play the Champion of Kirkwall as he or she fights for power and finally ends up on top!
    You did, it was just in a different tone. You end-up 'on-top' after Act 2 (which you admit you didn't finish), things don't stay with way. The fact is though is that you wanted a big player-empowerment story like DA:O; which DA2 wasn't, and was pretty easy to spot as not being that from fairly early in the game.

    Now can we please stop with this 'But Bioware promised!' and 'False advertising' nonsense? It was silly enough when it was applied to Mass Effect 3, never mind dragging it up now. I mean what next, are we going to start demanding an apology for being told that we could import our Baldur's Gate 2 characters into Neverwinter Nights?



    "A few lines..." That IS the change. That IS the consequences.
    Perhaps I need to be a bit more clear on what I mean by change versus consequence. When I say consequence I mean that it has an effect on your subsequent game experience, while that game is still going. At the very least this should be something you see, i.e. something shown, rather than just told to you at the end. In DA:O, for example, the choice of what to do with Loghain after you've beaten him is, I would say, a consequential choice. Such choices should also, like all actual choices, not be reducible to a problem solving exercise (i.e. one option is obviously produces better results than the others).
    There's nothing wrong with not offering these choices, Bioware games seldom do outside of your relations with party members and DA:O isn't an exception to this. The warden definitely changes a lot, it's just that you don't really feel much in the way of effects from these changes once you've made them. This becomes more noticeable when you compare it to games that do focus more on consequence, such as the Witcher Games or Alpha Protocol.



    EA's marketing is far better than Bioware's unfortunately.
    Clearly someone doesn't remember Dante's Inferno. Or the 'your mother will hate this' ads for Dead Space 2.

    As I said: Schmuck caught in the middle with no real power is a FAR way off from "Legendary champion of Kirkwall". I don't want to play an average schmuck. I AM an average schmuck. I want to play someone who is better than me.
    Fine, but that's a matter of personal taste. Given that, and also the amount of time we've spent on this topic in the past, I think we may as well agree to disagree and leave this argument alone for now.
    Last edited by Mr.Silver; 2013-02-07 at 06:47 PM.

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    If you really disliked the game that much, why make yourself replay it? It sounds like it would be like me trying to play Final Fantasy 8 again - a chore at best, unnecessary self-inflicted pain at worst. It doesn't even seem likely that importing data from it to DA3 will matter all that much, since unlike Mass Effect, the Dragon Age series is jumping between characters and locations radically with each entry. There certainly wasn't much affected by importing DA:O data to 2, after all, just a few cameos.
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    Legacy and Mark of the Assassin are really well written. I'd skip over the Exiled Prince more because Sebastian is just annoying. The Black Emporium is a waste of ten dollars and has no reason to be priced the same as actual DLC that add a few hours of play onto the game.

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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    If you really disliked the game that much, why make yourself replay it? It sounds like it would be like me trying to play Final Fantasy 8 again - a chore at best, unnecessary self-inflicted pain at worst. It doesn't even seem likely that importing data from it to DA3 will matter all that much, since unlike Mass Effect, the Dragon Age series is jumping between characters and locations radically with each entry. There certainly wasn't much affected by importing DA:O data to 2, after all, just a few cameos.
    Well because the OCD person in me hates leaving a game unplayed, especially if it turns out I will buy the third (that is, admittedly a big IF, since what I have seen is basically DA2 with Open World, and what I realyl want is DA:O with Open World. We'll see).

    Plus, it still bugs me constantly that I pre-ordered the game and never finished it once. And as I said, I love the voice acting of 99% of the characters.
    But yes, I know it will be primarely a chore, not a pleasant experience at all, hence the headline to this thread. I just have to try to distance myself completely emotionally from the game, since if I get emotionally involved I won't be able to finish it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    I must have missed that in between fighting off the Qunari invasion, deposing an insane Meredith, cleaning up gangs on the streets, seeing that Feynriel gets a chance at life, helping Isabella become a better person, getting revenge on Bartrand with Varric, helping Fenris finally get his freedom, giving Aveline a new life, defeating all manner of ravening monsters and demons etc.
    And the only thing I get for it is pain and suffering. Plus it is quite clear after about half the game that Kirkwall, as such, just deserves to burn. And EVERYONE in it. With the possible exception of Aveline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Seriously, the statement that Hawke's presence makes no difference on the story is just flat-out wrong. This is especially true in regards to your companion characters - regardless of whether or not you personally care about them. Whether or not several live or die (including one of your siblings) depends on Hawke's actions, for example.
    I said that END RESULT is the same; the rebellion happens. Even if Hawke was never born.
    But yes, I can see a difference for several of the companions: Your sibling can die, be a warden or locked up / become a templar. Aveline DO get a better life.

    The rest? Are you telling me that idiot child elf moron wouldn't get her entire tribe slaughtered anyway? Or at least the keeper killed? She has the IQ of a sponge, after all. A blood-magic using sponge.

    Varric would have been fine without me.

    Fenris... Who cares.

    Isabella? Hopefully she would have been caught and executed by the Arishok and then the invasion would not have happened; By protecting her Hawke makes it WORSE, not better. It's even pointless to give her up, which she very much deserves, because she re-steals the book and messes everything up anyway. Why can't I just kill her and hand over the book myself?

    Anders? Don't get me started...

    Sebastian? Never used him, so I don't know.

    Was there any more companions? I honestly doesn't remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    I never got that impression at all, everything in the game presents it as a serious event. The emotional cues all treat it as a 'be sad now' time rather than a 'you suck' time. It's rather like Ilium in Mass Effect 3, really.
    Not really. It would be more equivalent to Earth exploding or something. Since DA2 is on a smaller, more personal scale, your mother's murder is the equivalent of loosing earth halfway through the game, permanently. And yes, it is all very sad and well written. And renders all my roleplaying pointless, since Hawke's SOLE MOTIVATION is to protect his family. And now his family is dead. They might just as well have stayed in Lothering and being killed by Darkspawn. Same end result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Fair enough, everyone has different darkness thresholds, but that's not a game's responsibility. If you're going into a world that is explicitly classed as 'dark fantasy', then you can probably expect some less than happy things going on, as the things that happen to Hawke's siblings should probably have tipped you off.
    Why do you think I quit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Mature doesn't equal buckets of blood either, but you wouldn't know that given how DA:O was marketted. What mature can mean, at least in terms of media, is 'dealing with things not suitable for a younger audience'. So not really false advertising.
    I know. I am just having a hard time when people arguing that "mature" = tradegy and drama. It's just as silly as "mature" = Porn. More to the point, they overdid it.

    I guess I am too sensitive; I react too strongly to the heavyhanded writing, which gives me an overdoze of "Grimdark". It's like I said about the endgame; after watching the let's play all I could do was to conclude that I was really REALLY angry that there isn't an option in the endgame to just go "Go die in a fire, I go home to Ferelden now" and leave and let everyone kill everyone else, which is what they deserve.

    I know the writers are not trying to Troll me, I know they think they need to be that heavyhanded to reach through to the "desensitized console generation". But doing so made the whole thing SEEM like Trolling to me, because quite frankly I would only have needed about half as much of everything to realize this is a dark, depressing world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    You did, it was just in a different tone. You end-up 'on-top' after Act 2 (which you admit you didn't finish), things don't stay with way. The fact is though is that you wanted a big player-empowerment story like DA:O; which DA2 wasn't, and was pretty easy to spot as not being that from fairly early in the game.
    Exacly. Which is when I stopped playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Now can we please stop with this 'But Bioware promised!' and 'False advertising' nonsense? It was silly enough when it was applied to Mass Effect 3, never mind dragging it up now. I mean what next, are we going to start demanding an apology for being told that we could import our Baldur's Gate 2 characters into Neverwinter Nights?.
    No it is not the same, because as far as I remember NWN, when it was out in the stores, was not markeded with that function anymore.
    And Bioware DID promise me that I would become a person of great power, and get to choose HOW to get there. Ruthless? Alliances? Bribes? It is not false advertising, but it skirts the line, and above all it is a perfect example of "marketing speech" and how to give false impressions deliberately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Perhaps I need to be a bit more clear on what I mean by change versus consequence. When I say consequence I mean that it has an effect on your subsequent game experience, while that game is still going. At the very least this should be something you see, i.e. something shown, rather than just told to you at the end. In DA:O, for example, the choice of what to do with Loghain after you've beaten him is, I would say, a consequential choice. Such choices should also, like all actual choices, not be reducible to a problem solving exercise (i.e. one option is obviously produces better results than the others).?.
    And that is fine for you; I want proof that what I did made a difference in the end. That I accopliced my goals. That is what is important to me. You cite Witcher (which bored me, so I stopped playing it halfway through) as an example. I cite Fallout back at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Clearly someone doesn't remember Dante's Inferno. Or the 'your mother will hate this' ads for Dead Space 2.).
    Fair enough. (Although I have never heard of Dante's Inferno (the game, that is)). EA is better at marketing Bioware games than Bioware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    Fine, but that's a matter of personal taste. Given that, and also the amount of time we've spent on this topic in the past, I think we may as well agree to disagree and leave this argument alone for now.
    Of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    Legacy and Mark of the Assassin are really well written. I'd skip over the Exiled Prince more because Sebastian is just annoying. The Black Emporium is a waste of ten dollars and has no reason to be priced the same as actual DLC that add a few hours of play onto the game.
    As I said I pre-ordered the Digital Delux Edition so I have both Sebastian and the Emporium. So the only one I would get would be Legacy. Mark of the Assassin... Felica Day is sexy in an adorable way (and I did laugh when I saw her video of herself playing the DLC and giggling about playing with herself ) but quite frankly the DLC (and her character) does not look appealing to me.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-02-08 at 03:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Do you know what I think is the worst goddamn part about DA2?

    Even beyond the plot holes, and boring moments, and stuff that you should've been able to prevent, but BioWare was all "lol, nope!", there's one thing that I despise above all else in this game.

    the spiders

    Seriously, what the hell? These guys are everywhere. It's aggravating to an unnatural degree.

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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericMook View Post
    the spiders

    Seriously, what the hell? These guys are everywhere. It's aggravating to an unnatural degree.
    And abominations. Seriously.

    But yes... the SpeeIders, as Megamind puts it.
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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post

    As I said I pre-ordered the Digital Delux Edition so I have both Sebastian and the Emporium. So the only one I would get would be Legacy. Mark of the Assassin... Felica Day is sexy in an adorable way (and I did laugh when I saw her video of herself playing the DLC and giggling about playing with herself ) but quite frankly the DLC (and her character) does not look appealing to me.
    I found Ms. Day the worst part of that DLC, the "Oh we just met but we're good friends and you can trust me" bit was hard to swallow. Thankfully they realized that by the end and you can flat out tell her you don't trust her. The acting is great from every character, especially the villain. The boss battle is honestly a unique experience that was enjoyable but difficult even on Normal and the plot is more wide reaching than I think people are giving it credit, people who don't think it will have implications down the road weren't paying attention. There's even a stealth based mission which I thought was pretty awesome. I would say it's on par with Legacy though certainly doesn't overshadow it.
    Last edited by Tebryn; 2013-02-08 at 02:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Btw are the (very overpriced it seems) item packs worth it? For ME2 and 3 the item packs were definitely worth it, but they are much cheaper.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-02-08 at 08:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Btw are the (very overpriced it seems) item packs worth it? For ME2 and 3 the item packs were definitely worth it, but they are much cheaper.
    I've seen no difference what so ever with them.

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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    yeh, sounds like you shouldnt really do dark fantasy, since all the things you dont like are...the entire point. I like the genre, and DA2 is frankly a much better (and to my mind more interesting) example than DA:O, which was a bit....generic fantasy, i LIKE the whole "even as the chosen hero, you cant do everything, and cant save everyone" thing, especially with the murderer since as previosly stated, you have NO way of actually catching him beforehand.
    your sibling only dies if you make what is heavily foreshadowed to be a baaaaad choice.

    may i suggest kingdoms of amalur for you? its got a fairly cheerful but still fairly dark tone, the combat is great, and your a proper destined (or not: heee, in-joke) hero who grows powerful enough to dominate continenst (a bit TOO powerful tbh, late-game it gets REALLY easy)

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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Quote Originally Posted by zegram 33 View Post
    yeh, sounds like you shouldnt really do dark fantasy, since all the things you dont like are...the entire point. I like the genre, and DA2 is frankly a much better (and to my mind more interesting) example than DA:O, which was a bit....generic fantasy

    ...

    may i suggest kingdoms of amalur for you? its got a fairly cheerful but still fairly dark tone, the combat is great, and your a proper destined (or not: heee, in-joke) hero who grows powerful enough to dominate continenst (a bit TOO powerful tbh, late-game it gets REALLY easy)
    I don't get how depressing and hopeless is more interesting. I guess it is a personal thing but Tragedy as a genre, is incomprehencible to me. Why would anyone want to experience the feelings you get from reading / watching / listening to / playing a tragedy? If you enjoy feeling awful, why not just watch the news for an hour or two?

    I would also argue that there is a difference between "dark fantasy", and "depressing tragedy". Just because a setting is dark doesn't mean that all your struggles should be futile. Compare ME3, where the ride towards the end is much MUCH darker than DA2 (like 1000 times worse), but the ending is a happy ending at best and flinging a light into the future at worst. Guess which of the two games I enjoy?

    My biggest beef with DA2 is not the setting though but the shoddy work. This is also the reason why it has such a low rating by players in most review sites; it is not a burning hatred of the ending like ME3 suffered from, it is just a disappointing game (to the point that it is one of the main games that caused people to loose confidence in professional reviewers, since they gave it beteen 80 and 90 across the board. It is even common in England to ask reviewers "Is this a true 85 point game or a DA2 85 point game?").

    The idiot balls. The recycled environments. The waves of idiot combatants spawning from nowhere (even behind you in areas you KNOW you emptied), the cartoony graphics, the idiot balls, the consolification, the awezumbutton, the idiot balls, the lackbuster plot, the complete illusion of choice, the false promise of greatness, the railroading, the idiot balls.

    And the idiot balls.

    Things I DO like about the game: The voice acting. The dialogue wheel. Flemeth. Two (three if you are not a mage) of the companions are tolerable.

    ...That's it, basically.

    As for your suggestion: Maybe. I have not seen any good reviews for it. I still have a game backlog anyway (I haven't bought Dragonborn yet, and Elaninde, my High Elf Mage / Thief has not started the main plotline of Skyrim yet; I am also going through the ME trilogy from scratch again, I must finish X-com and my first game of Civ V at some point and I have not even started Dishonored yet. I am also toying with the idea of starting Crusader Kings II again. Oh and I have yet to finish DA2, as you know )
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2013-02-20 at 07:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I don't get how depressing and hopeless is more interesting. I guess it is a personal thing but Tragedy as a genre, is incomprehencible to me. Why would anyone want to experience the feelings you get from reading / watching / listening to / playing a tragedy? If you enjoy feeling awful, why not just watch the news for an hour or two?

    As for your suggestion: Maybe. I have not seen any good reviews for it. I still have a game backlog anyway (I haven't bought Dragonborn yet, and Elaninde, my High Elf Mage / Thief has not started the main plotline of Skyrim yet; I am also going through the ME trilogy from scratch again, I must finish X-com and my first game of Civ V at some point and I have not even started Dishonored yet. I am also toying with the idea of starting Crusader Kings II again. Oh and I have yet to finish DA2, as you know )
    Without commenting on the DA2 debate, speaking as someone who loves tragedy, or at least well put together tragedy, it generally stems from the fact that the hero is an interestingly flawed character. The fact that the bad things that happen in the story are his fault makes it more interesting, at least for me. You both sympathize with the protagonist for whatever he loses, but realize that it all stemmed from him.

    At least in well written tragedy. There are several examples of tragedy I intensely dislike because they're trying too hard and get it wrong.

    Additionally, I can put in another recommendation for Kingdoms of Amalur. Very well put together RPG with some interesting ideas that I don't think had as much success as it deserved.

    Then again, that's a pretty hefty list you got there. Lots of heavy hitters on that line up. At least bear it in mind when next you find yourself gameless.

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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bling Cat View Post
    Without commenting on the DA2 debate, speaking as someone who loves tragedy, or at least well put together tragedy, it generally stems from the fact that the hero is an interestingly flawed character. The fact that the bad things that happen in the story are his fault makes it more interesting, at least for me. You both sympathize with the protagonist for whatever he loses, but realize that it all stemmed from him.

    At least in well written tragedy. There are several examples of tragedy I intensely dislike because they're trying too hard and get it wrong.

    Additionally, I can put in another recommendation for Kingdoms of Amalur. Very well put together RPG with some interesting ideas that I don't think had as much success as it deserved.

    Then again, that's a pretty hefty list you got there. Lots of heavy hitters on that line up. At least bear it in mind when next you find yourself gameless.
    As I said, it is a personal thing. Maybe I have had enough crap happening to me, for real, that i do not enjoy crap happening to others. Or something.

    Anyway, Kingdom of Amalur... I just looked it up and... maybe. It seems to not be a Love it or Hate it game as much as a Love it or ...Meh why bother...? game. The few stellar reviews I find love every bit of it, while the rest seem to think "they wasted a perfectly good game mechanic" by giving it a very railroaded and Meh story.

    As for my hefty list: I also plan on buying BG Enhanced Edition at some point. But my biggest problem is that I enjoy Skyrim and the ME games so much that I tend to go back to them and then get stuck. Elaninde is my 6th Skyrim character; Jaqueline is my 5th ME1 character and my 13th ME2 character (and my 2nd ME3 character, eventually). I noticed that the first time after I installed Deus Ex Human Revolution and kept going back to playing ME2; it was just so much more fun. (Which reminds me, I still haven't finished DE:HR either).
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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    yeh, i can relate to that.
    i need to be in a specific mood to want to play a tragedy, usually if im feeling fairly kinda....pensive.

    that said, DA2 isnt necesarily a great game its just...unique.
    Like, i was expecting fenris to be your typical cloud clone ("hey look, a guy with anime hair, angsting and waving a big sword...) but then he turns out to be more twisted than that, and has more reason to be so. on a related note, i'm british and i havnt heard that saying, but most of the guys i talk about games to are into that kind of "dark tragedy" anyway so thats probably that.

    while i prefer skyrim to it by miles, in skyrim you tend to win everything you attempt fairly effortlessly, even rocking up to morokei or alduin i never thought "i'm gonna have to fight with every item, spell, and scroll i have to even have a chance, and its STILL probably gonna balls up" (that being said, dragonborn is very good for that, its difficult, dangerous, but still do-able, and you really GET that feeling of two epic, borderline immortal mages (or a mage and whatever you are) squaring off head to head.

    KoA is....i dunno, its an rpg like DA2, but with an open world, and focussing on combat rather than characterisation.
    have a crack at the demo perhaps, its a pretty good indicator, but be aware that (especially as a mage) there is nothing that can withstand a few hits.


    dragons dogma is great, but the story is both a literal word-for-word skyrim rip for most of the game, and exceptionally depressing/uninteresting when it changes tack 3/4 of the way through. much worse than DA2 in depression factor.

    great GAME, just.....terrible story

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Anyway, Kingdom of Amalur... I just looked it up and... maybe. It seems to not be a Love it or Hate it game as much as a Love it or ...Meh why bother...? game.
    Pretty much. I fall into the latter camp. I played it just a couple of months ago, and, well, it has the right idea with the gameplay, being an action RPG that actually takes mechanics from great action games like Devil May Cry and God of War, but not much else. The writing is generic fantasy and completely uninteresting for most of the duration, the world is oversized and has far too many pointless side-quests, and the gameplay is spoiled by being far too easy. To the point where not deliberately gimping yourself almost guarantees you'll end up overpowered and sleepwalking through the later parts of the game if you're any good at action games. I don't think I'd recommend it myself - too much of a time sink for what little it really offers.

    Dragon's Dogma would be a better action-RPG of that sort to recommend, but if I'm not mistaken you're on PC only, and that's a 360/PS3 game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I don't get how depressing and hopeless is more interesting. I guess it is a personal thing but Tragedy as a genre, is incomprehencible to me. Why would anyone want to experience the feelings you get from reading / watching / listening to / playing a tragedy? If you enjoy feeling awful, why not just watch the news for an hour or two?
    Because a tragedy is a very different thing from a terrible news story. Tragedy - at least the classic Greek formulation - is all about the cathartic resolution of the protagonist's destruction. 'Pity and horror' as Plato put it. Then we feel good because all that terrible stuff didn't happen to us.

    I would also argue that there is a difference between "dark fantasy", and "depressing tragedy". Just because a setting is dark doesn't mean that all your struggles should be futile. Compare ME3, where the ride towards the end is much MUCH darker than DA2 (like 1000 times worse), but the ending is a happy ending at best and flinging a light into the future at worst. Guess which of the two games I enjoy?
    I never really got why people were so convinced the Dragon Age games were dark fantasy in the first place. Too many player heroics by half for that.

    And why would you go play a game you know you hate? Suffering through the thing won't make you get any more value out of the pre-order. Given it's an entertainment product, I'd rather think it gives even less value for the money.
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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    Well, I'm currently in the middle of a playthrough in Dragon Age 2 (Though admittedly, I stopped in the middle when something else grabbed my attention). I didn't think it was 'that bad' so far.

    >.>

    <.<

    I know, I'm in a minority here, and my opinion doesn't really help your situation.

    I recommend you do what you want, or what you think will make the situation fun for you. If that means "100% Snarky Hawke," then by all means.
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    Default Re: Am I crazy? DA2

    I find that the Snarky Hawke is really the only attitude that fits the Voice Actor they've got going. I'm on my eighth playthrough of the game, having down angry and peaceful on both male and female for both and...snarky really does just fit the best.

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