We never FIGHT spellcasters

[sambouchah]

None of the DMs I know make spellcasters villains or allow us to fight them at all. It makes my role as the caster/manifester utterly boring. How can I convince a DM to throw in some casters instead of just dead magic zones(which neither understands)?

Thanks, Sam

[Hiro Protagonest]

One does not simply fight a wizard...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Tell him to stop being lazy.

[Newoblivion]

Ask him? Or at list tell him to inform the players what kind of campaign he is running. So players won't make rogues for an undead heavy story.

I personally always include something that somehow makes players use their character's powers. Otherwise you just make their characters feel worthless.

[sambouchah]

One does not simply fight a wizard...

Tell him to stop being lazy.

Jade Dragon, well is combat or duel better?

And they both feel they are not being lazy(despite that they are both lazy) so I don't think it would phase them

[Amphetryon]

Why is it boring to play a caster if you aren't directly combating other spellcasters?

[enderlord99]

I have a video for you!

[ArcturusV]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

Unless it's low level. In which case it's really just the balance that is throwing off the DM. So you probably weren't going to run into one at level 1 or 2 because even at level 1/2... a wizard can just DECIMATE an encounter.

Unless you get lazy. Be a dumbass. And say things like "you're ambushed by 3 level 1 wizards. Each wizard has only one spell prepared, magic missile."

Which makes no sense because no first level wizard would go into battle like that. They'd have Color Spray, or Charm Person, or Sleep, etc.

And honestly if all the mage you are fighting does is throw out two Fireballs, a few Acid Arrows, and a few Magic Missiles (So it doesn't horribly unbalance the ONLY encounter the enemy has to account for, against the PCs, so spell mongering doesn't come into play, you have to kinda choose a suboptimal evocation mage)... it's not that interesting. I mean colorwise, it's cool. Having fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc, going on are great Special Effects and Flavor for a scene... but not mechanically interesting. And generally kinda weak.

If he plays his enemy wizards intelligently? You're not going to have much of a chance. Particularly with Tactical Supremacy as NPCs often have. That's why you typically don't see a lot of Mage/Cleric enemies. And when you do they are usually bosses.

[Flickerdart]

Caster NPCs don't have to be ultra-paranoid superwizards. Hell, even putting together a regular run of the mill Sorcerer can be a ton of work if he only shows up once and then dies. In this case, pre-mades are your friends. I recommend the Fiend Folio's ethergaunts, who are powerful casters with pretty decent default lists. For human foes, the fixed list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage) are an easy choice, and each one takes a different approach to defeat. Beguilers have to be fought with dispels and divinations, Dread Necros are best opposed with anti-undead necromancy spells, and Warmages should be counterspelled or warded against using protective abjurations.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

I was trying to make a joke (it's practically a meme), but yeah, this, even on lower op. I have no idea why fighting a spellcaster would consist of the other guys fighting minions while you two go "Scorching Ray!" and "Magic Missile!" at each other. Or why that would be particularly interesting for you.

[sambouchah]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

Unless it's low level. In which case it's really just the balance that is throwing off the DM. So you probably weren't going to run into one at level 1 or 2 because even at level 1/2... a wizard can just DECIMATE an encounter.

Unless you get lazy. Be a dumbass. And say things like "you're ambushed by 3 level 1 wizards. Each wizard has only one spell prepared, magic missile."

Which makes no sense because no first level wizard would go into battle like that. They'd have Color Spray, or Charm Person, or Sleep, etc.

And honestly if all the mage you are fighting does is throw out two Fireballs, a few Acid Arrows, and a few Magic Missiles (So it doesn't horribly unbalance the ONLY encounter the enemy has to account for, against the PCs, so spell mongering doesn't come into play, you have to kinda choose a suboptimal evocation mage)... it's not that interesting. I mean colorwise, it's cool. Having fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc, going on are great Special Effects and Flavor for a scene... but not mechanically interesting. And generally kinda weak.

If he plays his enemy wizards intelligently? You're not going to have much of a chance. Particularly with Tactical Supremacy as NPCs often have. That's why you typically don't see a lot of Mage/Cleric enemies. And when you do they are usually bosses.

We're all coming up on seventh level in our main campaign. And in our other campaign I did manage to swipe a staff of Healing off of a cleric in a city(by murdering him) but that wasn't the campaign that I would like to fight casters in.

And on top of it in the other campaign we have an Artificer(wizard with all kinds of crafts because we didn't know about the real class. we are dumbasses) a ranger and a cleric.

And I am one of the few in my group who grasps Psionics and magick fully. Everyone else's understanding is relatively low. They make mages who use fog cloud and the blind fighting feat til level 20, which gets old fast.

[Slipperychicken]

Why is it boring to play a caster if you aren't directly combating other spellcasters?

Because you basically auto-win against level-appropriate beatsticks if you know what you're doing.

[Leon]

None of the DMs I know make spellcasters villains or allow us to fight them at all. It makes my role as the caster/manifester utterly boring. How can I convince a DM to throw in some casters instead of just dead magic zones(which neither understands)?

Thanks, Sam

You don't, you let the DMs run what they want as a game and adapt to it.
That you are a Caster/Manifester is not dependent on having a Caster Foe.

[Amphetryon]

Because you basically auto-win against level-appropriate beatsticks if you know what you're doing.

There are all sorts of things to do with casters - and other enemies, for that matter - besides direct confrontation that do not create an auto-win scenario, in my experience.

[ArcturusV]

That and if you did get a spellcaster enemy? It's not going to duel you. What typically happens is instead of an arcane duel or the like... the enemy spellcaster just messes up as much of the party as possible and turns the odds from an even fight, to something like one wizard (minus some spells) and all his allies, against the few who made their checks.

[Ernir]

Could be worse. You could be playing a Spellthief.

[sambouchah]

You don't, you let the DMs run what they want as a game and adapt to it.
That you are a Caster/Manifester is not dependent on having a Caster Foe.

I understand it's not dependent on caster foes but when all we fight is human warriors and the very occasional dragon or troll things get boring and magic becomes a non essential in a fight. At this point my Wizards and clerics have become such Swordsman who have the option of spellslinging if only it is desperately needed. And on top of our only encountering bandits and soldiers we encounter friendly Maguses on a very VERY regular basis. Which makes me feel that there are only Good aligned casters in the world. And that is unrealistic.

An aberration or two would make it more than bearable and add something cool to the game.

[sambouchah]

Could be worse. You could be playing a Spellthief.

Just saw this! Caleb(our current main DM) doesn't allow anything outside PHB for starting characters And Chuck(our alt. DM, and the fun one to be honest) allows anything as long as there is no LA above +1, but doesn't appreciate anyone's choices and makes a campaign that makes our class features useless.

[Krobar]

A smart wizard is a very formidable enemy. He'll research you first, figure out your strengths and weaknesses, and fully exploit them at the worst possible moment.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.

[sambouchah]

A smart wizard is a very formidable enemy. He'll research you first, figure out your strengths and weaknesses, and fully exploit them at the worst possible moment.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.

Hell I'd love that!

[Last Laugh]

And on top of our only encountering bandits and soldiers we encounter friendly Maguses on a very VERY regular basis. Which makes me feel that there are only Good aligned casters in the world. And that is unrealistic.

You could become the first evil wizard, problem solved!

[Eric Scott]

If you really want to fight casters and you only encounter friendly mages, turn Evil and then attack them... If they want to live they will have to fight back.

[enderlord99]

Just saw this! Caleb(our current main DM) doesn't allow anything outside PHB for starting characters And Chuck(our alt. DM, and the fun one to be honest) allows anything as long as there is no LA above +1, but doesn't appreciate anyone's choices and makes a campaign that makes our class features useless.

Try... play-by-post..?

[White_Drake]

Have you considered asking your DM, rather than seeking commiseration from a random group of people on the Internet?

[Squirrel_Dude]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

Unless it's low level. In which case it's really just the balance that is throwing off the DM. So you probably weren't going to run into one at level 1 or 2 because even at level 1/2... a wizard can just DECIMATE an encounter.

Unless you get lazy. Be a dumbass. And say things like "you're ambushed by 3 level 1 wizards. Each wizard has only one spell prepared, magic missile."

Do they leap out of the bushes wielding quarterstaves?


On Topic: rofflestomp opponents until he is forced to bring out bigger guns?

[Answerer]

Just saw this! Caleb(our current main DM) doesn't allow anything outside PHB for starting characters And Chuck(our alt. DM, and the fun one to be honest) allows anything as long as there is no LA above +1, but doesn't appreciate anyone's choices and makes a campaign that makes our class features useless.

You have terrible DMs; I'd sooner not play than play with either. Wouldn't even be a hard choice.

You don't, you let the DMs run what they want as a game and adapt to it.

Wow, that- to be polite, I could not disagree more vehemently nor more strongly recommend anyone and everyone to not follow that advice.

[Seharvepernfan]

Wow, that- to be polite, I could not disagree more vehemently nor more strongly recommend anyone and everyone to not follow that advice.

His tone does sound kinda like "You'll sit down, eat your brocolli, and like it!", but I can't say that I really disagree. Which is more reasonable:

1. The DM adapting his entire prepared world/campaign/rules/whatever around what one player (arbitrarily or not) decides he'd like to play.

Or...

2. The player adapting his character concept/playstyle to what the DM offers.

I'm not saying that a DM should never bend, but it's so much more reasonable for the player to bend to the DM than the other way around.

I have to agree with Leon here. It's like places where pedestrians have right of way: it's retarded. A driver has to pay attention to all kinds of stuff; speed/road conditions/precipitation/all the various road signs, turns, other cars, and so on, in addition to all the pedestrians, and has to stop his multi-thousand pound vehicle moving at many times walking-speed, whereas a pedestrian can just stop walking and wait for the car to go by.

[Sith_Happens]

occasional dragon or troll

I suppose it's too much to assume that your DMs know to not play a dragon like a troll? Because a dragon can very much be a worthy fight for a caster if it fights smart.

[ArcturusV]

Heck, if the Dragon is played like it has the... 15.. 18... 21 Intelligence, etc, it has... it should just up and mess up any spellcaster. I mean they cast spells as a Sorcerer. Take a few instances of Dispel Magic. Burn out the wizard of useful spells or disenchant useful transmutations and such like Fly. Then all the Dragon has to do is stay in the air, laugh as the Ranger does 1d8 +3 damage or so and it's meanwhile breath weaponing you for a lot more. But most people don't do stuff like that. Dragons get dumbed down... a lot. To the point where people see fighting them as routine rather than the death challenge it should be.

[Flickerdart]

Take a few instances of Dispel Magic.

Waste of spells. Dragon caster levels are so ridiculously low that even if they had the slots to spare, the chance of successful dispel would be almost nil.

Dragon spells should always be used to buff or BFC. For directly offensive action, you have the rest of the dragon.