Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    To my knowledge, the SRD mentions standing still only in the description of Invisibility as a special ability. Here, standing still is said to increase the invisibility bonus that you add to your Spot DC from +20 to +30, or even to +40 if you are good at standing still by virtue of being a Construct or an Undead.

    I think more needs to be said about standing still.

    For example, we need to define the action. If you move or act at all physically, you can't stand still (but you can perform mental actions, and maybe there are a few, very subtle physical actions you can perform without losing the benefits of standing still). So standing still is a full-round action that you can't combine with a five-foot step. Right?

    There is one other benefit that standing still should have. You should be able to make a Move Silently check without actually moving if you've got nowhere to go. This should add +10 to your Move Silently check, at least. Indeed, if you're invisible, but wearing heavy armor, standing still seems like a very reasonable thing to do. Am I still making sense?

    Here's where my proposals run out, and I start to have questions.

    1. If you can Hide in Plain Sight, can you hide while standing still? And if so, can your location still be pinpointed, even if everybody fails to Spot you – because former spotters all know where you were when you "disappeared"?

    2. I assume that you can take a purely mental action while standing still without losing its benefits. For example, you should be able to activate a spell-like ability while standing perfectly still. But should this require a Concentration check, or not?

    3. Are there some physical actions that are so stealthy that you can perform them without losing the benefits of standing still? What do you think about making a Sleight-of-Hand check to draw a weapon or pick someone's pocket?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    I'd say that any action or skill usage that caused you to budge in the slightest (even applying your DEX to AC or making a reflex save) would negate any benefit of standing still.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    So... should standing still be a full round action, or a standard action? Can you do it while stunned, prone, or unconscious? Is an inanimate object or corpse capable of taking the 'standing still' action? Can you 'stand still' while flying or swimming? Can its effects be stacked, if you devote multiple actions to standing still in the same round? How does it relate to the 'sit on my arse' action? If Standing still is a condition instead of an action, can I use Iron Heart Surge to end it?
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2013-02-07 at 07:06 PM.
    The pursuit of knowledge requires a mind unfettered by the petty constraints of ethics, faith, or ... mortality.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    So... should standing still be a full round action, or a standard action?
    Standing still wouldn't be an action in an of itself but rather an exclusion of other actions. You could still perform any purely mental action, or any action that you could otherwise perform without moving any part of your body or object that you are wearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Can you do it while stunned, prone, or unconscious?
    It depends, you couldn't be standing still in a round in which you fell prone from loss of consciousness or dropped a weapon from being stunned. Among other things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Is an inanimate object or corpse capable of taking the 'standing still' action?
    No, because they cannot make hide checks. No, because it can't take actions. Yes because it must be treated as standing still if it's not moving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Can you 'stand still' while flying or swimming?
    If you had a way to fly without moving, such as the fly spell but not if you had wings, or any other method that you couldn't hover in one spot. Swimming.. perhaps but you may be subjected to involuntary movement due to current so that would depend on that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Can its effects be stacked, if you devote multiple actions to standing still in the same round?
    No, because it wouldn't be an action, it would be an effect that would be spoiled if you moved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    How does it relate to the 'sit on my arse' action?
    If you had sat on your arse you would have spoiled your stand still for the round. Although subsequent rounds would benefit provided you held still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    If Standing still is a condition instead of an action, can I use Iron Heart Surge to end it?
    You could even use Iron Heart surge to end someone else's standing still effect, if you were trying to spot them!
    Last edited by andromax; 2013-02-07 at 11:07 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    So... should standing still be a full round action, or a standard action?
    As I understand it, the act of standing still must be a full-round action, because moving at all at any time enables others to see your movement, if only as a slight wavering of the air. Remember that the whole basis in the SRD for my speculations is the rule that invisible creatures are exceptionally hard to see when they stand still. Taking even a five-foot step counts as motion and should end the condition of motionlessness. Of course, if you stand still during a surprise round, you take only a standard action to do so, because that's all the time you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Can you do it while stunned, prone, or unconscious? Is an inanimate object or corpse capable of taking the 'standing still' action?
    I'd say yes to all questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Can you 'stand still' while flying or swimming?
    While flying, definitely no (except maybe on an alternate plane with subjective directional gravity), but while swimming, I'm not sure. If you are naturally exactly buoyant enough neither to sink like a stone nor to rise like a bubble, so that you can stay in one place without moving at all, then I'd say you can stand still while swimming, or rather floating in place. On the other hand, if you wear armor and have to tread water furiously to stay in place (and keep from sinking), then no, that doesn't count as standing still.

    Although you are effectively "frozen in time" outside of your turn, I don't consider you to be standing still unless you took a full-round action to do it during your last turn. Standing still should be an action that lasts until your next turn begins, like casting a full-round spell. If you do anything outside your turn to interrupt your motionlessness, such as make an attack of opportunity, you should lose the benefit of motionlessness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Can its effects be stacked, if you devote multiple actions to standing still in the same round?
    The reason I say that standing still is a full-round action is to make it impossible to take more than one standing-still action per round. Actually, the more important thing is that you don't do anything else, at least not physically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    How does it relate to the 'sit on my arse' action?
    In all seriousness, it should be perfectly as possible to "stand" still in a sitting, squatting, kneeling, or prone position as in a standing position, provided that you don't do anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    If Standing still is a condition instead of an action, can I use Iron Heart Surge to end it?
    Part of my reason for posting is to consider whether it really makes sense to call standing still an action. Maybe it's better to call it a condition with prerequisites, most of them negative, rather than an action. However, I am certain that it is very easy to make a creature stop standing still (provided that you can see it). In fact, attacking and injuring a motionless creature (other than a Construct or Undead) probably makes it flinch with pain (and lose the benefits of standing still) unless it makes a Concentration check at DC 10 plus the damage dealt.

    (Possibly you can also substitute a Perform (mime) check, if this would be more favorable.)
    Last edited by Duke of Urrel; 2013-02-07 at 10:58 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by andromax View Post
    No, because they cannot make hide checks.
    Remember, though, that for an invisible creature, standing still doesn't involve making a Hide check at all. Even without hiding, the creature still increases its invisibility bonus from +20 to +30 (or even +40).

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel View Post
    Remember, though, that for an invisible creature, standing still doesn't involve making a Hide check at all. Even without hiding, the creature still increases its invisibility bonus from +20 to +30 (or even +40).
    Actually yes, +40.. as it specifically says that inanimate objects spot DC is 40 when it's invisible. "An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40)."

    And that's just to notice something is there

    I guess it's a DC 60 to pinpoint it, since you have to beat the DC by 20.
    Last edited by andromax; 2013-02-07 at 11:05 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by andromax View Post
    I'd say that any action or skill usage that caused you to budge in the slightest (even applying your DEX to AC or making a reflex save) would negate any benefit of standing still.
    This makes sense. Performing any physical action at all, apart from breathing, blinking, and blood circulation, should negate the Motionless condition (or interrupt the Stand Still action). (Indeed, having to breathe, blink, and circulate blood is exactly what makes most creatures unable to stand as still as a Construct, an Undead, or an inanimate object.) The benefit of a successful Sleight-of-Hand check should include noiselessness (so that I don't personally even require you to make a Move Silently check if your Sleight-of-Hand check succeeds), but not motionlessness. Sleight-of-hand tricks do require motion, after all, and often very quick motion at that.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel View Post
    In fact, attacking and injuring a motionless creature (other than a Construct or Undead) probably makes it flinch with pain (and lose the benefits of standing still) unless it makes a Concentration check at DC 10 plus the damage dealt.
    Upon further reflection, I'm leaning away from requiring a Concentration check to perform a purely mental action while standing still. You should have to make a Concentration check only if something threatens to break your concentration – or throw you off balance, or cause you to cry out in pain – such as an attack, violent motion, strong wind, et cetera.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel View Post
    Upon further reflection, I'm leaning away from requiring a Concentration check to perform a purely mental action while standing still...
    Your standing still should be one of your less immediate worries if you're taking HP damage from a great-axe.

    At this point, the guy attacking you and yelling to his buddies "Hey, this goober is standing right here, watch as I cleave his skull into a piss-pot!" kind of puts a bummer on your whole plan to stay hidden.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Sunnydale

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Note that if you've got Epic Hide skill, with a modifier over +50, you still can't Hide while standing still, and if you're invisible the DC to Spot you is still just 40. With a really good Hide you're better off moving at 1/2 your speed or less. Even a 5' step is still moving at "full speed" for that 5' and you'll get the -5 penalty to your Hide check.

    I don't know what the D&D authors were thinking when they decided that moving a substantial distance was the best way to Hide.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Big Fau's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    You're trying to impose rules on not moving? Wow, this seems very unnecessary...

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    if you're invisible the DC to Spot you is still just 40.
    It's a DC 40 to notice a creature that is not hiding, who is invisible, and is standing still, and if the DC is met; (actually hiding creatures get a +40 to their hide check, if their invisible, immobile, and hiding, and a +20 to their hide check if they're invisible and hiding, and moving. I'm not sure what rule Curmudgeon is quoting)
    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD
    The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack
    Because,
    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD
    a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40).
    However;
    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD
    It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
    You can't spot them with any spot check but you can pinpoint their location. DC 60 in this case.


    Where are you getting that you cant hide while standing still?
    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD
    Hide

    Action

    Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
    Special

    If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.
    Last edited by andromax; 2013-02-08 at 03:19 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    I don't know what the D&D authors were thinking when they decided that moving a substantial distance was the best way to Hide.
    I have had some thoughts about this since we last discussed this topic. When you hide in plain sight, I think you really must move at least five feet in some direction, because otherwise, everybody who spotted you before will simply look for you in the last place where you were still visible. If you're still there, every former spotter will pinpoint your location by default, even if your Hide check beats all Spot checks.

    Another example is sniping. When you make a ranged attack without hiding, you effectively give away your location. So the only way you can hide again after your attack is to move in an unexpected direction. This is why the –20 penalty is appropriate. The reason why the rules insist that your Hide check represents a move action (in this case) is (I believe) so that we'll know that you can't take a full-attack action (without hiding) and then hide.

    However, in other cases, I would not insist that you need to travel any distance in order to make a Hide check. I would insist that unless you try to hide while attacking (in which case you naturally don't move, because attacking precludes moving), you must take a move action, two move actions, or a run action in order to hide. Usually, the distance of your move is dictated by the distance between you and the nearest place of cover or concealment. But if you already have cover or concealment right where you are, why move? Taking a move action to stay where you are (and perhaps also to crouch, squat, kneel, or drop prone in this place) should be enough – unless you've already been spotted and you're trying to hide in plain sight.

    But again, if you have already been spotted and you are trying to hide in plain sight, it makes sense to me that you need to move. Otherwise, everybody will assume that you are still in the place where you were last seen – and nobody will be wrong about that.
    Last edited by Duke of Urrel; 2013-02-08 at 12:25 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Fau View Post
    You're trying to impose rules on not moving?
    Not exactly. I'm trying to impose rules that determine when you get certain benefits by standing still, and what it is you can do without losing these benefits. These benefits include an increased invisibility modifier if you stand still while invisible, which the SRD mentions. They also include a proposed benefit of mine: a +10 bonus on your Move Silently check if you don't actually move.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by andromax View Post
    Your standing still should be one of your less immediate worries if you're taking HP damage from a great-axe.
    I agree. Invisibility isn't the same thing as invulnerability. But I don't think taking the Stand Still action during your turn means you are incapable of moving until your next turn begins. It only means that if your action is ever interrupted, you lose the benefits.

    I don't believe standing still should even make you flat-footed. You can still dodge an enemy's blow whenever you need to, and you can still make an attack of opportunity whenever you want to. But as soon as you either dodge or attack, you instantly lose the benefits of Motionlessness.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by andromax View Post
    Where are you getting that you cant hide while standing still?
    This is actually still a somewhat controversial view (and it was much argued about in a thread that I recently posted, "How the Heck Do You Hide in Plain Sight?"). The RAW don't mention hiding while not moving (except for the extraordinary case of hiding while attacking), and I think we can all agree that in order to hide, you must take some kind of action. If you could make a Hide check without taking any action at all, you could make an unlimited number of Hide checks during your turn, so that in theory you could always "take 20," regardless of stress or haste.

    This is part of the reason why I am proposing that standing still should be considered an action, and a full-round action at that. Standing still is not the same as hiding, but it has similar benefits for an invisible creature.

    I would not require you to become perfectly motionless merely in order to hide without "moving" in the tactical sense (that is, merely in order to hide without traveling from one game square to another). This is why I would consider hiding without moving generally to require no more than a move action. With this move action, you can hide right where you are, perhaps by crouching, squatting, or dropping prone, or perhaps by just standing there and looking around to check your enemies' lines of sight before you settle down into your hiding place.

    Indeed, I consider hiding and standing still generally to be two different things. The former nearly always involves moving, if not necessarily traveling from one game square to another. The latter involves not moving at all.
    Last edited by Duke of Urrel; 2013-02-08 at 12:45 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Standing Still (3.5): Proposed Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel View Post
    I don't believe standing still should even make you flat-footed. You can still dodge an enemy's blow whenever you need to, and you can still make an attack of opportunity whenever you want to. But as soon as you either dodge or attack, you instantly lose the benefits of Motionlessness.
    Yep, totally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel View Post
    If you could make a Hide check without taking any action at all, you could make an unlimited number of Hide checks during your turn, so that in theory you could always "take 20," regardless of stress or haste.
    Here's my take on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD
    Action

    Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.
    So if you don't hide as part of a movement move action then it's either a separate move equivalent action or a standard action. Nowhere does it say it's a Free Action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel View Post
    Standing still is not the same as hiding, but it has similar benefits for an invisible creature.
    However creatures that are invisible, hiding, and standing still given a +40 on their hide check.

    Anyways, it's clear that you can hide while being immobile, atleast while invisible, because that is specifically addressed in the hide skill description.
    Last edited by andromax; 2013-02-08 at 03:15 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •