Lets talk about spears

[Zombimode]

First things first: I'm not one of these guys who fiddle with the D&D rules for the sake of realism. There are several reasons for this. Among them:
1) getting it wrong: my idea of what is "realistic" does not have to meet the facts
2) being inconsequential: even IF I get my rule changes right, it is likely that I will ignore many other aspects of the rules that are likewise unrealistic
3) being unnecessary: D&D rules are tools to support a certain range of fantasy archetypes in the context of a certain activity, that is role playing games. Complete realism isn't always needed or even beneficial for this.

Now, on the other hand, I like my share of verisimilitude in my games, but where I demand it's application I realize is quite arbitrary.
For example: I can't stand ridiculous armor and weapon design, and I like the artwork to be more of a realistic style then a comic/manga style. But on the other hand I'm complete fine with the adventurers with their realistic swords and warhammers go up against non-humanoid or giant enemies. For me thats just a genre convention, just like for other people it is a genre convention to call huge unwieldy maul-like things "warhammers".
Just so you know, realism is not my primary goal here.

But sometimes I have problems translating the pictures in my head into game terms. This often is the effect of hugely unrealistic rules, because in my imagination I often lean to the realistic side. But the point of contention is always that there is a disconnect between my imagination and the possibilities of translation into the game terms.

And exactly this is the case with D&D spears.
In D&D (melee) spears come in three variations: the Shortspear, the Spear, and the Longspear.
The Shortspear is a simple one-handed melee weapon that can be thrown in a pinch.
The Spear is a simple two-handed melee weapon, also with the ability to be thrown.
The Longspear is a simple two-handed melee weapon that trades the ability to be thrown for reach.

So, if a warrior wants to arm himself with a shield and a spear, you know, like the most common weapon configuration ever in the history of mankind, he is limited to the Shortspear.
Instead he could safe himself the gold piece a take a club instead, loosing nothing (yeah, 10 ft. of range, but thats not much of an incentive).
And of course a so equipped warrior would not gain one of the prime advantages of spears: reach.

The common image of the warrior with a big shield and a long spear is simply not possible to represent in D&D. This is a state I can not accept.

I'm looking to revise the spear weapons in D&D.
I think there are at least two types needed: a) the typical one handed longspear, a reach weapon; and b) a two handed pike with even longer reach.

So how about:*

Longspear
Simple one handed-melee weapon, damage (medium) 1d6, crit: x2, special: reach

Pike
Martial two-handed melee weapon, damage (medium) 1d8, crit: x3, special: ultra reach, set against charge.

Ultra reach: Enhances your natural reach by 10 ft. (instead of 5 ft. like a normal reach weapon) but you can't attack targets that aren't at least 15 ft. away from you.

Any suggestions?

*I save myself the trouble of including cost and weight, because I would pull out these number out of my behind anyway.

[Answerer]

I'd probably treat the longspear like the martial equivalent of the bastard sword: two-handed if you only have simple weapon proficiency, one-handed if you have martial weapon proficiency. Just because one-handed reach weapons don't actually exist before exotic actually.

Then again one-handed weapons are just mechanically worse than two-handers.

Actually, if you want to fix something about this set-up, I'd probably focus on the incredible weakness of shields, first. I'd consider giving them a "block chance," which is like "miss chance" but only works on non-touch attacks. Shield Ward (PHB2) would make them work on touch attacks also. The problem with that, though, is that it makes your stats and the other guy's stats not matter (since it'd be a static property of the shield).

Maybe Shield bonuses to AC should be bonuses on a "parry" maneuver? That adds extra rolling though, which is no good...

[Zanthy1]

For the pike, I would not require the target of attack to be 15ft away, that is impractical as well. Just because a weapon can reach 15ft, does not mean it is limited to 15ft. Most fighting in medieval times with pikes was not face to face, but usually within 10ft. It would all depend on how the weapon was held. If you hold a pike with both hands near the bottom of its shaft, then yes it can strike 15ft away, but holding it more in the middle you would be able to strike as close as 10ft.

I really like the ideas you have with this, but I would just tweak the pike so that it has a reach range of 10-15ft (maybe require a swift action to switch between the 2?) There is a feat called short haft, I believe in PHB2, that allows that exact same thing, but maybe the pike can switch between 15ft and 10ft freely, but using this feat one could strike an adjacent square?

[Yora]

Pikes are used as part of large formations of pikemen, not in single combat. They are far too long and heavy for that.
Spears used for individual combat are much shorter and more in the 2m range, I think.

I'm not entirely sure, but when you fight with a shield in the other hand, you pretty much have to grasp the spear in the middle to have it balanced, further reducing the range. But unlike swords and axes, you only need to be able to reach the target with the arm fully outstretched and the spear poiting directly forward to get an effective hit. With swords, axes, and maces, you swing your arm, and that makes a considerable difference. Maybe not the 2 meters as on a D&D grid, but it is a real advantage in reach.
However, when you hold your shield far away from you and pull your arm with the spear back, the tip of the spear would not extend much beyond the shield, so you don't need one to two meters of empty space between you and an enemy to make dangerous stabs.

[Zombimode]

I'd probably treat the longspear like the martial equivalent of the bastard sword: two-handed if you only have simple weapon proficiency, one-handed if you have martial weapon proficiency. Just because one-handed reach weapons don't actually exist before exotic actually.

Then again one-handed weapons are just mechanically worse than two-handers.

Actually, if you want to fix something about this set-up, I'd probably focus on the incredible weakness of shields, first. I'd consider giving them a "block chance," which is like "miss chance" but only works on non-touch attacks. Shield Ward (PHB2) would make them work on touch attacks also. The problem with that, though, is that it makes your stats and the other guy's stats not matter (since it'd be a static property of the shield).

Maybe Shield bonuses to AC should be bonuses on a "parry" maneuver? That adds extra rolling though, which is no good...

I like your idea to make the Longspear analogous to the Bastard Sword.

While I agree that shields are a bit on the weak side as defensive weapons in D&D, this isn't as much pronounced in an E6 world, especially for lower level NPCs, which I'm primarily interested in.

I'm viewing this pretty much from the DM's perspective. I've never seen player characters using any shape or form of spear (javelins excluded), and I don't expect this to change.
I just want to have my longspear-and-shield men-at-arms, dammit!

For the pike, I would not require the target of attack to be 15ft away, that is impractical as well. Just because a weapon can reach 15ft, does not mean it is limited to 15ft. Most fighting in medieval times with pikes was not face to face, but usually within 10ft. It would all depend on how the weapon was held. If you hold a pike with both hands near the bottom of its shaft, then yes it can strike 15ft away, but holding it more in the middle you would be able to strike as close as 10ft.

I really like the ideas you have with this, but I would just tweak the pike so that it has a reach range of 10-15ft (maybe require a swift action to switch between the 2?) There is a feat called short haft, I believe in PHB2, that allows that exact same thing, but maybe the pike can switch between 15ft and 10ft freely, but using this feat one could strike an adjacent square?

While you raise some good points, my main motivation behind making the pike only able to attack creatures 15 ft. away was to discourage it's use among player characters, and making it an army weapon used by large formations.

Because 5ft. steps exist any weapon that can only strike creature at least 10 ft. away is a proper melee weapon. Because of this, besides being terrible, Short Haft is quite a useless feat.

I'm not entirely sure, but when you fight with a shield in the other hand, you pretty much have to grasp the spear in the middle to have it balanced, further reducing the range.

Well, this guy would disagree, and I find him pretty convincing.

[OverdrivePrime]

I agree that spears seem to have gotten the shaft () in D&D, and I'd love to see an alteration that gives them proper treatment, so that they're not just a pointy, more expensive alternative to a club.

This guy has some pretty good ideas about spears. He's about as much an authority as anyone else who's reenacted with one, but he's pretty coherent.

[Deadline]

I'm viewing this pretty much from the DM's perspective. I've never seen player characters using any shape or form of spear (javelins excluded), and I don't expect this to change.

You are likely to see a change. You are introducing a one-handed reach weapon. It doesn't matter what the weapon is, it could be anything from a submarine sandwich to an extremely floppy clownshoe, a one-handed reach weapon is going to be highly sought after.

A suggestion might be to have it operate like a lance, mechanics-wise. In other words, it only functions as a one-handed weapon during certain circumstances. For example, maybe you can use it as a one-handed weapon, but in order to do so you have to remain relatively immobile, so your speed is halved, or you can only take a 5' step.

Alternatively, have the shortspear enhance the shield. Basically, the weapon isn't a reach weapon, but due to its length it allows for the defender to more easily deal with his opponent. Something like a +1 shield bonus?

[Eurus]

You are likely to see a change. You are introducing a one-handed reach weapon. It doesn't matter what the weapon is, it could be anything from a submarine sandwich to an extremely floppy clownshoe, a one-handed reach weapon is going to be highly sought after.

But sword-and-board and TWF are both considered generally weaker than two-handers, so is that necessarily a problem? It's somewhat superior to other options currently available, but that's mostly because the other options suck.

[Zombimode]

You are likely to see a change. You are introducing a one-handed reach weapon. It doesn't matter what the weapon is, it could be anything from a submarine sandwich to an extremely floppy clownshoe, a one-handed reach weapon is going to be highly sought after.

Hm, I doubt it.
It is a one handed non-light non-finessable 1d6/x2 piercing weapon.
Characters who typical go for one-handed melee weapons either
- don't have access to martial weapons (which they would need for this new Longspear using Answerer's suggestion)
- choose Rapier for the crits
- use shortswords for being finessable Shadow Hand weapons
- use sword/axe/hammer 'n board for style

Non of these uses are threatened by the new longspear.

If characters who would normally go for a greatsword, greataxe or guisarme take a longspear instead, why the hell not?

[Answerer]

- use sword/axe/hammer 'n board for style

These are the people who would change, except they probably won't because the reason for the change is optimization, which they've already shown negative interest in by going for sword'n'board in the first place.

Still, I could see making a 300-style Spartan crusader this way, which would be fun (whooops, there goes your realism....).

[Bearlock]

Just my 2cp

First, to the OP, I have to say that I agree 100% with your views on realism. When I picture anything in my head it does not involve any Buster swords or crazy spiked anime hair. And I agree with whole giant two handed mauls bigger than people thing being just ridiculous as well.

My own views on spears mirror what a few others have already said, I employ a few house rules

1. Shortspear. Stays as is: simple, one handed, d6, x2, 20ft range

2. Spear. As a simple weapon, stays as is: simple, two handed, d8, x3, 20ft range, brace.
2a. But! To a character with martial weapon prof, it becomes a martial one handed weapon, with the same stats, minus the brace ability. If they want to brace, all they need to do is hold it in both hands, which is pretty realistic. You're trying to stop somebody running at you full-tilt, with hostile intentions, with a pointy stick? I would have both hands bracing that thing. This puts the spear close to even with the battleaxe, giving sword and boarders that want a decent piercing weapon or just the style something to work with.

3. Longspear. As a simple weapon stays as is: simple, two handed, d8, x3, brace, reach.
3a. As a martial weapon I allow it to be used as the same, but with the option to reach or not. I think this allows a character some more wiggle room and is pretty realistic as far as somebody in real life actually being able to do so. Not sure if switch grips should be determined at the start of their turn or as a swift action, still mulling that one over.
3b. As an exotic weapon I allow it to be used one handed, with the same stats, but again, minus the brace ability.
3c. The longspear is the lance, the lance is a longspear. I let it slide.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you pull the spear into your armpit and lock it to your body you can make a very strong grip much the way a charging knight locks a lance to his body. If it is strong enough to brace for a hit while charging for double damage, it should be strong enough to brace vs a charging target for double damage.

Also, many troops actually set the back of the pike onto the ground and sloped the pike forward so the brunt of the hit went straight through the pike into the ground. You just had to hold on to prevent the pike from tipping up or sliding. Much easier than trying to stop a charging horse with your body weight.

[Averis Vol]

I'm no spear expert but I believe the use of spear is cultural. So the way I run it in my games is, you basically get regional feats for free at level one based on where you're from (take into consideration that I built my own homebrew world) So if you came from the area loosely based on greek culture you could use a spear and a shield at the same time, and if you were from the loosely oriental based area you could weapon finesse a number of weapons, including the spear and longspear.

[jindra34]

I'm no spear expert but I believe the use of spear is cultural. So the way I run it in my games is, you basically get regional feats for free at level one based on where you're from (take into consideration that I built my own homebrew world) So if you came from the area loosely based on greek culture you could use a spear and a shield at the same time, and if you were from the loosely oriental based area you could weapon finesse a number of weapons, including the spear and longspear.

Cultural? Is that what you happen to call the use of a weapon for history from stone-age to the invention of guns, across almost the ENTIRE world. You call that cultural?

[BRC]

One solution, which dosn't really address the Reach issue, would be to simply stat characters as using Tridents, but fluff them as using Spears.

[ericgrau]

The two handed spear is something like 9 feet long. You can't hold that in one hand without a big counterweight, and even then it would be clunky. I don't think they actually did that. The one handed spear is a better fit. It's long, but not long enough to be a D&D reach weapon. If you start distinguishing that amount of reach then next you have the headaches of daggers and so on. And the one handed spear length is reasonable to throw (not only by game rules) like they did way back when.

Spears and crossbows were both very common weapons, but that's because they were simple to use. They outnumber other weapons because the commoner army outnumbered well trained soldiers. So they are right where they belong among the best simple weapons; they are not so special for adventurers with extensive weapons training.

[Shining Wrath]

Add the "pilum" to the list as a martial weapon.

A pilum is a heavy one-handed spear. It can't be thrown, but is an effective weapon with normal reach. Give it d8 damage and (18,3x) critical range.

Now you've got your Roman legionnaire ready to go.

For the Greek model use the existing throwable spear. Consider Achilles throwing spears at Homer and vice-versa.

I don't think we want to add a 1H weapon with reach. And if we do, it's going to be a variant of the spiked chain with less weight and so less damage.

[Shining Wrath]

... SNIP ...

Also, many troops actually set the back of the pike onto the ground and sloped the pike forward so the brunt of the hit went straight through the pike into the ground. You just had to hold on to prevent the pike from tipping up or sliding. Much easier than trying to stop a charging horse with your body weight.

Hold ... HOLD ... HOLDDDDDD! /William Wallace

[Fouredged Sword]

You could create a set of weapons noted as formation weapons that you take a -4 for using outside a formation without EWP.

[lsfreak]

Cultural? Is that what you happen to call the use of a weapon for history from stone-age to the invention of guns, across almost the ENTIRE world. You call that cultural?

To be fair, most people don't seem to realize that the primary weapon of all time before guns was the spear. But historically, everything that's not a spear or a bow/crossbow/sling was a sidearm, not a primary weapon (well, except those crazy Romans).

[jindra34]

Add the "pilum" to the list as a martial weapon.

A pilum is a heavy one-handed spear. It can't be thrown, but is an effective weapon with normal reach. Give it d8 damage and (18,3x) critical range.

Now you've got your Roman legionnaire ready to go.

Actually the pilum was a essentially a javelin that was designed to bend and twist after impact, so as to further disable. So saying it can't be thrown is very false.

[BRC]

The two handed spear is something like 9 feet long. You can't hold that in one hand without a big counterweight, and even then it would be clunky. I don't think they actually did that. The one handed spear is a better fit. It's long, but not long enough to be a D&D reach weapon. If you start distinguishing that amount of reach then next you have the headaches of daggers and so on. And the one handed spear length is reasonable to throw (not only by game rules) like they did way back when.

Spears and crossbows were both very common weapons, but that's because they were simple to use. They outnumber other weapons because the commoner army outnumbered well trained soldiers. So they are right where they belong among the best simple weapons; they are not so special for adventurers with extensive weapons training.

Spears are also very easy and cheap, to make. Something like a Sword, or even an Axe, requires a lot of metal and effort on the part of a smith. The metal you would need to make an Axe could make several spearpoints, and the wooden shafts would be easy to make. Plus, unlike Swords or Axes, there would be less upkeep. It's easier to keep a point sharp then a blade.
In DnD, even a first level adventurer has enough money that the cost difference between a Spear and a Longsword isn't that big deal. However, if you're trying to create an army, or even equip a town militia, Spears will be far superior. Your average Village Smith (responsible mainly for making tools) can make Spearpoints (He could also probably make Axe Blades, but that would be more expensive).

[Fouredged Sword]

If anything I would make a pilum be a simple weapon that acted like ammunition that could be wielded in melee. Give it the stats of a javelin, but high crit chance (17-20 or so), but if it scored a hit the weapon breaks.

[Vaz]

Four edged Sword, that is huge. Crit fishing already one way of making twf useful, and even if it only 2x 50% with lightning maces is going to be tremendous. I'll ignore the last bit, however ,, as that frankly does nothing to help the case.

In regard to spears, i think that ToB missed a trick with not making one exclusively for spears (not reach, or polearm, spears). My idea of spear fighting is from Dynasty Warriors games, but damn they are fun, if spear fighting could be done i hope it is like that. Or the duel in the rain from 'Hero'. Might be a little OTT for a legionnaire type character, but there is plenty 'stoic dwarf butterball rargh' type characters around. Admittedly, Stone Dragon and Dwarf Defender suck, but so's your breaks in life.

[Spiryt]

Spears and crossbows were both very common weapons, but that's because they were simple to use. They outnumber other weapons because the commoner army outnumbered well trained soldiers. So they are right where they belong among the best simple weapons; they are not so special for adventurers with extensive weapons training.

If we want to go into details:

The crossbows were never quite 'commoner' weapons, because they were expensive piece of kit.

And spears were used by trained soldiers as well, again, trough long damn centuries across the whole world. Don't really fall out of use in 15th century Europe either.

Same thing with crossbow, used by townsfolk and knights just as well.

It's easier to keep a point sharp then a blade.

Most spears have a blade... Thrusting one, but still.

I wouldn't say that there would be much if any 'general' difference between cost and difficulty of making spear and axe. Differences due to quality of particular piece would be much more important.

2a. But! To a character with martial weapon prof, it becomes a martial one handed weapon, with the same stats, minus the brace ability. If they want to brace, all they need to do is hold it in both hands, which is pretty realistic. You're trying to stop somebody running at you full-tilt, with hostile intentions, with a pointy stick? I would have both hands bracing that thing. This puts the spear close to even with the battleaxe, giving sword and boarders that want a decent piercing weapon or just the style something to work with.

Doesn't address the reach thing though, doesn't it?


Personally, I like the idea in OP quite a bit.

It's probably balanced - about the same as Kusarigama, save disarming stuff...

[Bearlock]

If you pull the spear into your armpit and lock it to your body you can make a very strong grip much the way a charging knight locks a lance to his body. If it is strong enough to brace for a hit while charging for double damage, it should be strong enough to brace vs a charging target for double damage.

Also, many troops actually set the back of the pike onto the ground and sloped the pike forward so the brunt of the hit went straight through the pike into the ground. You just had to hold on to prevent the pike from tipping up or sliding. Much easier than trying to stop a charging horse with your body weight.

While yes, holding a spear tucked against your body does give you a tighter grip, comparing that to a knight with a lance is not quite right. The majority of the the impact is braced by the types of saddles jousters sat in. Forgive me for not knowing or butchering the technical terms, but I believe the "cantle" of jousting/war saddles braced the rider, along with the fact that lances used for jousting in real life were meant to break, lessening the impact.

Its also true that yes, pikes were generally sloped with one end on the ground, I think it still holds true that anyone employing that technique would still use both hands to hold the weapon for steadiness and aiming. Mind you, that is in real life, and as the OP said, looking for a semblance of realism to lend to the game. As I had written it, using spears as one handed martial weapons that can be thrown, and equivalent damage wise to the longsword or battleaxe, taking away the brace function is a way to create balance mechanically IMO

Somebody beat me to the Braveheart reference, so I will have to go with another one from the 13th Warrior:

[The Wendol horsemen charge toward Ahmed Ibn Fahdaln, and the Vikings. Buliwyf throws Ahmed a wooden stake]

Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: What do I do with this?!

Buliwyf: Put your foot on it...and stand!
----

[Bearlock]

Doesn't address the reach thing though, doesn't it?

No reach thing to address? That was the regular spear, it does not have reach

[Averis Vol]

Cultural? Is that what you happen to call the use of a weapon for history from stone-age to the invention of guns, across almost the ENTIRE world. You call that cultural?

Actually no, I merely meant that, at least in my assumption, the way a spear used is cultural. for the greek example it was that they used spears with shields in a very spartan/phalanx way which culminated in a lot of thrusts unlike the way you see monks who use them in a very wide range of motion that looks more art then practical warfare (don't get me wrong, I do not think their way of fighting is impractical). So next time, I would appreciate a little less blatant anger at my post and more of a depthful reading (though again, I could be mistaken) because I gave two very plain examples of the way, at least I assume, the weapon is used.

[Shining Wrath]

Actually the pilum was a essentially a javelin that was designed to bend and twist after impact, so as to further disable. So saying it can't be thrown is very false.

I'm not going for historical accuracy. I'm making up a name for a new weapon. Call it the Heavy Javelin, then.

[jindra34]

No reach thing to address? That was the regular spear, it does not have reach

Well there is a reach issue, namely spears having a much longer reach (yes even short spears) than swords. The issue actually isn't addressable in DnD because it lacks the granularity to properly represent a sword's SHORT reach.