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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    First things first: This is a sounding board for a narrative aspect of my world, but it involves mechanics in and of itself within the world setting. So I post this below, and hope that you and I together can solve the problems presented in the OP. Who's with me!? *chirp chirp* Yeah thought so. Hopefully I'll get SOME interest! Any or all of this is subject to change as we progress in brainstorming, so feel free to contradict the OP, or ask me questions on the setting as needed.

    So, in my setting world, three mechanics make it go round - Magic, Fate and Luck. Today we're focusing on Fate. If you're interested in the Magic mechanics, go here. If you're interested in Luck mechanics, go here. All three are interconnected, so it could stand to reason that they may influence this thread and visa versa.



    The Elvori - The Arbiters of Fate

    The Elvori have a living connection to the force of Fate, which gives them the ability to interact with world of Aldain. Everything is affected by the ways of the world, but only the Elvori have the power to communicate with those ways. Those ways are what we call "Fate".

    Elvori Characteristics:
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    This area needs help. If you have any thoughts, please contribute.


    Fate

    Fate is a force that functions through reactions. To control Fate is to have a power to manipulate and understand these reactions, and in doing so - predict what future reactions might be. These are evidenced by the two forms of interaction with Fate which the Elvori possess. Immediate Fate, which compromises basic physical laws such as thermodynamics, mass and inertia (to name a few), and Ultimate Fate, in which predictions can be made for future events. Fate is made up by the four primal elements that the world is comprised of (Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind), and these elements are crucial for both Immediate and Ultimate Fate function.

    The Radicals of Fate

    Fate in the end is a duality Ė it has a positive side and negative side. Some destinies lead fate toward one of these radicals, other destinies lead toward the other. It is important to note that the Radicals of Fate are not in the alignments of "good" or "bad" as might be believed. Positive and Negative Fate are two terms for states of existence, not morality. This similar to how positive and negative could be two different charges of a magnet, or more accurately two extremes in states of matter: Moving or Resting, Hot or Cold, Light and Dark, so on.

    Living things typically thrive in cases where these extremes are balanced, and similarly, Aldain is habitable because the Radicals are balanced. This is what the Elvori strive for: "The Calm". The Calm lies in between the radicals, and is what enables Aldain to survive as a planet capable of sustaining life. Some even hypothesize that the balance of the Radicals is what causes the planet to spin on its axis, perhaps it even causes the three forces of Aldain to maintain their cycle. Still, there are those that subscribe to Positive or Negative Fate exclusively. These people are known as "Radicalists". Radicalists do not care about balancing Fate, only in furthering the world toward their particular radical. Different factions within these groups justify this philosophy in various ways.

    The Elements

    Fate is made up of the four elements - Water, Wind, Fire, and Earth.

    -
    Water
    Wind
    Fire
    Earth
    Matter
    Liquid
    Gas
    Plasma
    Solid
    Property
    Cooling
    Motion
    Heating
    Still
    Radical Positive Tendency Negative Negative Tendency Positive

    It should be understood that Water, Wind, Fire, and Earth are not truly the elements themselves but rather are strong representatives of these four states of matter. They are nonetheless still strongly analogous of the elemental forces and embody the spirit of the elements as closely as physically possible on this plane of existence. Thus if one wishes to study the element of water, then learning about water is essential to become more strongly tied to the element, but other liquids will expand and refine that knowledge. In other words, each representation of each element is the root aspect to begin study, but does not make up the entirety of the element by any means.

    This also suggests why there are some exceptions to the rule - some liquids, like mercury, are not attuned to the water element, just as not all solids, like ice, are earth. Still in general terms one will find a general consistency with states of matter being attuned to one of the four elements.

    Radical Influences:
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    Positive fate represents the tendency for atoms, particles, and so on to come toward each other, become denser and become stagnant. This would cause earth to be the element most sided with Positive Fate, but water, dealing with cooling, and removing energy from the subject, would lean toward Positive Fate as well.

    Conversely, Negative Fate represents things drifting away from each other, becoming less dense, and expanding. This causes Wind to be the element that most sides with Negative Fate, though fire, dealing with heating, and moving energy into a subject, would lean toward Negative Fate as well.

    Still, it must be remembered that Positive and Negative Fate aren't exclusive to any particular element, just the tendencies of them. For example, manipulating an element is generally using the element in a way it normally does not act, so doing so is using the opposite fate upon it. To expand - if I am manipulating earth, I am using Negative Fate to move it around. Conversely, if I wanted to slow air, I'd use Positive Fate to do so.

    Since Fire and Water are more neutral elements, they do not react so exclusively. If I use Negative Fate on liquids, it doesn't mean that it will heat up, but I could redirect a flow or cause it to move in uncharacteristic ways. Fire similarly doesn't mean I can cool plasma when I use Negative Fate on it, but I can cause lightning to be confined and directed, instead of chaotic and unrefined.




    Immediate Fate

    Immediate fate represents the Physical laws, which are all things that react and happen in predictable ways, and is the most common form of Fate. This kind of Fate can be summarized by any natural and non-living reaction or combination (chemical or physical). An example of this could be - a ball is dropped, and gravity dictates it will fall to the ground. The Elements that Fate is made up of represent these reactions, whether by themselves by states of matter (solid, liquid, gas, and plasma), thermodynamics (heating and cooling) or kinetics (motion and resting), or by combinations of the elements as listed in the graph below.

    Physical Term
    Water
    Wind
    Fire
    Earth
    Weather
    x
    x
    -
    -
    Tectonics
    -
    -
    x
    x
    Thermodynamics
    x
    -
    x
    -
    Kinetics
    -
    x
    -
    x
    Gravity
    x
    -
    -
    x
    Buoyancy
    -
    x
    x
    -
    Light
    -
    x
    x
    -
    Reflect/Refract
    x
    -
    -
    x
    Magnetism
    -
    x
    -
    x
    Electromagnetism
    -
    x
    x
    -

    Elemental Manipulation

    While Immediate fate is composed of these natural tendencies of Fate within the world, elemental manipulation deals with the ability the Elvori have to manipulate these reactions. It should be noted that elemental manipulation cannot directly affect another living thing. While living things are made up by the elements as well, the combination is too complex for the Elvori to alter. This means an Elvori attuned to the wind element, or a wind seer, could not manipulate the air another's lungs, nor could an earth seer make a tree grow any faster (though they could make the soil more fertile). Along the same lines, a water seer could not manipulate blood or saliva.

    Even when a living thing dies, it takes time for that thing to decompose, and revert back to the seperate elements. When it has, those element could be manipulated, but not before that point. Waste matter produced by living things have already been broken down into the elements by the living creature, so is manipulatable.

    Attunement
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    As an adolescent Elvori begins to experience and learn about the world, they come into contact with various natural concentrations and combinations of the elements. Weather, gravity, the seasons - nearly everything they experience applies to the elements. In addition, through their studies of the elements as well as observing seers that are already attuned, they see examples of how these natural elements can be manipulated.

    Eventually, every young Elvori must make the choice of which element they will attune. When this occurs, they then are known as a seer of their element. This choice can be based on many factors - desire, talent, social pressure, or even a calling - a feeling of being drawn by the element itself. For some, the choice is obvious. For others, it may take years for the choice to be reached. Even so, the studies of a young seer cover all the basic features of all four elements, to give a greater knowledge to how the world works, and how the elements interact with each other.

    Tempering

    Upon choosing a specific element, the body of an Elvori begins to go through a set of changes, known as "Tempering".

    The change begins with a chemical reaction that causes a mental awakening, where a seer can now have advanced interactions with the element they have chosen. Tempering also causes a specific hormone to be released into the seer's body. The element a seer choses dictates which hormones are released, and what physical changes the hormone will cause. Every Elvori has the capability to attune, and so each of the four hormone glands is present within their bodies. Attuning activates the neccessary glands, while the others remain dormant.

    For a Water Seer, tempering causes their tongue to fork and their nose to flatten some, both of which improve the seer's taste and smell. For a Wind Seer, tempering causes their ears to become longer, and given the ability to be turned some, both of which improve the seer's sense of hearing. For a Fire Seer, tempering causes their eyes to grow larger, and the pupils to change slightly, both of which allow the seer to see in infrared if it chooses, but also allows for a better overall sense of vision. Last, for an Earth Seer, tempering causes their body to grow small, opaque, whisker-like hairs all over their body, which give the seer a heightened sense of touch.

    Tempering also triggers a seer's body to begin changing into an adult, and allow the seer to begin to develop reproductively. Tempering lasts for six to seven years, and when an Elvori has fully matured into an adult, each of the four glands stop functioning, or have the capacity to function.

    Elvori who Fail to Attune

    A high percentage of the Elvori attune to an element, yet for various reasons there are those that fail to do so. This could be a situation they are forced into, such as they were unable to decide which element to take, medically were stunted, or perhaps an individual with malicious intent might prevent an Elvori from attuning. Finally, this situation might be of an Elvori's own volition, and has chosen not to attune for a higher purpose - to become a Scribe. This will be detailed more in the Ultimate Fate section.

    When an Elvori fails to attune, they bodily have severe drawbacks when compared to one that has attuned. First, the unattuned cannot go through their tempering stage, and thus are denied any heightening of senses. They also gain a shorter lifespan, generally only living a mere tenth of a normal Elvori's life span. It is as if the intimate connection to the Elements (which these unattuned Elvori are denied) causes the usual Elvori to live longer. Finally, the unattuned are unable to reproduce, as their bodies have not gone through the changes necessary to do so.

    With such disadvantages, one would wonder why any sane Elvori would choose not to attune. While it is a huge cost, an unattuned Elvori can manipulate, move, and destroy Premonition Sites, where no attuned Elvori could. This phenomenon suggests that Elvori who do not attune to a specific element, have a much more intimate tie to Fate itself, however fleeting this tie is.

    Secondary Attunement

    Commonly, a seer only attunes to one element, but under certain conditions, two attunements can be attained. The force of Fate must be in power for someone to have multiple attunements, because during this time, a seer's connection to the elements is closer, and capable of more. As a note, Ultimate Fate can only be accomplished in an Age of Fate as well.

    If a seer chooses to attune to multiple elements, they must first be already attuned to an element. This is because the process of attunement is a dedicated and complex process. Trying to do two at once would be to counteract the efforts that must be involved. Due to the relationship a seer has with their element, a secondary attunement cannot be an opposite element. So, if a seer was attuned to water, they could choose for a secondary element earth or wind, but they could not attune to fire. This rule is also why a seer could not attune to a third element, because any other element after the first two attunements would be an opposing element.

    A seer who has accomplished two attunements has the same amount of power as someone who is only attuned to one, which means they must divide this power between the two. A seer can choose to have both of their elements a similar level of power with each other (1/2 and 1/2), or have one compliment the other (1/4 vs. 3/4). It should be noted that a seer must choose their second attunement before they reach adulthood, or they will not be able to do so.

    Area of Interaction
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    When a seer attunes to an element, they begin growing more accustomed to the element in which they are connected to. At first, this interaction is at a personal range. This means a seer can only interact with or manipulate an element by direct contact with the intended element. However, as a seer progresses in their powers and becomes better attuned, this range extends out to encompass an area of distance around the seer. It should be remembered that a seer can still manipulate things by physical touch in addition to now being able to manipulate at a range.

    As the area of interaction of the seer expands past physical touch, a seer gains insight of the elements in which they are attuned to within this sphere. Also, since a seer can now sense the element within a certain range, they can also manipulate the element within that area. A seer can also focus on the area they interact with to identify which specific kinds of their attuned element are within their area if interaction, as well as the amount. A seer can then use this information to aid them in their manipulations. For example, if a water seer had an area of interaction that was 60 feet in diameter, they could sense what specific liquids were around them in a 30 foot radius, and where they were. This ability would prove especially useful for the seer if they were trying to detect a liquid underground or behind a wall, as other elements do not interfere with this ability.

    Elemental Encounters

    Against Water -
    Earth absorbs/impedes Water
    Wind blows Water
    Fire evaporates Water


    Against Wind -
    Earth impedes Wind
    Water impedes Wind
    Fire consumes Wind


    Against Fire -
    Earth smothers Fire
    Water cools Fire
    Wind extinguishes Fire


    Against Earth -
    Water erodes Earth
    Wind erodes Earth
    Fire breaks down Earth


    One would notice this list shows that all elements affect each other by beating each of the elements in some way, or by also in turn being beaten by them. Thusly, no element is truly superior to another. The winning result of an interaction is dependent on which element is more strongly represented. For example, in one interaction between Fire and Water, Fire could be represented in more capacity than Water, thus causing Water to boil and evaporate. On the other hand, there could be more Water in the interaction, causing the Fire to be extinguished.

    Progression and Energy
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    Power = Progression Level / Amount of Elements Attuned
    Caliber of Manipulation = (Ability + Skill)

    Progression Level = (Age x Experience)
    Ability = (Sensitivity + Precision) x Progression Level
    Skill = Creativity(Imagination and Aptitude) + Study (knowledge of elements)

    Sensitivity; which user can more accurately interpret what they're sensing to pinpoint that underground water, or sense smaller amounts?
    Precision; when it comes to actually manipulating the element(s), which user has finer control?
    Progression Level; how much energy can I excert toward manipulation.

    Progressive Power

    As a seer ages and grows more experienced with their element, the area immediately around them takes on more and more the appearance of their attuned element. This is mainly a visual representation of the increasing amount of energy a seer is able to gather as they age. This "bubble of energy" is the energy that is stored for elemental manipulation. For earth, this could be an aura of dust or stillness, while fire might cause a ripple in the air or heat. Water may cause the air around a seer to be damp or cool, and an air seer would seem to always have a breeze around them. These characteristics increase as they age. When a seer of some notable power uses this energy, the effect can appear to be their figure clothed in the element they are attuned.

    Elemental Energy

    While the a seer has an increased capacity of energy they can gather as they progress, the element still must be drawn from a seer's environment. Each element acts differently, and so, each seer must be conscious of their element's fluctuations so that they can plan to use their element the most during times or areas in which they have the opportunity to replenish their energy. For example, if a fire seer was traveling through a frigid area, it would not be wise for them to expend all their energy quickly, since conditions would not be optimal for gathering more energy in such a climate.

    Earth - Always a steady source of energy, never fluctuating. Comes in a constant stream. Absorbing energy from this element smooths out areas of terrain over time, creating flatter areas, or gradual slopes instead of rocky and rough terrain.

    Water - A source of energy that accumulates, akin to a basin being filled with liquid. The energy within this basin can be tapped anytime while it is filling, and will continue to fill until it is at capacity. Any tapped energy while filling just sets back the accumulation. Absorbing energy from this element might make freezing areas a little more comfortable, or make tidal patterns calmer.

    Wind - Always a fluctuating source of energy, never steady. Comes in a varying stream. Absorbing energy from this element might calm winds, or be protected from harsh winds.

    Fire - A source of energy that dissipates, akin to fuel being burned away. The fuel will continue to burn away until it is burned out, and then new energy must be accumulated. Unlike water, energy cannot be tapped when it is being replenished with fire. Absorbing energy from this element might make seering hot areas cooler and more comfortable, or make active volcanos calmer.

    The Embrace

    After a seer reaches a certain age, they gain enough latent energy to perform an act known as "The Embrace". The Embrace is when a seer who is at full elemental charge unites with the energy around them. The aura around them consolidates to cover a seer's body, and they take on a form resembling a creature consisting totally of the attuned element. When in this form, a seer receives major advances to the capacity at which they can manipulate their element.

    Wielding this power is no easy feat, however. Merging with the elements in this way is addictive, and can have destructive consequences for repeated use. A seer that is not careful within this state could lose control. If this happens while actively manipulating an element, there may be unexpected affects, such as causing bodily harm to the seer within the embrace, or even to others nearby. It could even have explosive consequences, such as creating a localized disaster, such as flooding, wind storms, flash fires, or landslides. If one is killed during an Embrace, or by the negative affects of an Embrace that has gotten out of control, they are devoured by the element. The Embrace will rip them apart and leave no trace behind.

    Further, the more addicted a seer becomes to the Embrace, the more that seer's personality begins to embody that of their element. Earth seers become increasingly stubborn and unrelenting. Fire seer's tend to become increasily easy to anger. Air seers become unfocused and easily distracted.
    Water seers become more apathetic, calm, and disinterested. These are certainly not sudden occurances, and wear off over extended periods of resisting embrace.

    These negative affects do not cause Embracing to become taboo in the Elvori society. Embracing is often a necessary task. A seer's education impresses moderation for this sacred technique.

    The Final Embrace

    At the end of a seer's life, a seer with enough energy can perform an act known as the "Final Embrace" where they become one with their element of attunement. It is essentially merging with the Elemental Expanse.

    Elemental Capabilities
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    Fire
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    • Heating
      • Evaporate
      • Cook
      • Sterilize
      • Heat Other Element
        • Crack Solids
        • Harden
        • Melt
        • Boil
        • Burn
        • Forge/Weld
        • Create Glass
        • Make Air Hotter
      • Start/Create Fire
    • Flame Manipulation
      • Fire Balls
      • Fire Wall
      • Ray of Fire
    • Lightning
      • Electrical Manipulation
      • Blinding Flash
      • Shock
      • Intimidation
    • Light
    • ??


    Earth
    Spoiler
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    • Earth Changing
      • Fertile soil
      • Stone to sand
      • sand to stone
    • Earth Manipulation
      • Movement of Earth
        • Shaking Earth
        • Shaping Earth
      • Movement with Earth
        • Pushing with Rock
        • Move through Earth
        • Boosting vertically
    • Friction
    • Metal
      • Remove Impurities
    • Weight - Increase
      • Delayed weight gain
    • ??


    Water
    Spoiler
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    • Cool/Slow Particles/Increase Density
      • Freeze Water
        • Snow
        • Ice
      • Walk on Water
      • Slow Flow
    • Water Manipulation
      • Water Balls
      • Water Wall
      • Water Lash
      • Water Purification
      • Remove Water
    • Cloud Summoning
    • Darkness
    • Volume
    • ??


    Wind
    Spoiler
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    • Sound
      • Alarm
      • Whistle
      • Carry Sound
      • Sound Dampening
    • Air Manipulation
      • Gusts/Pushing
        • Blow Out Fire
        • Fill Sails
        • Change Flow of Wind
        • Push things away
      • Suction/Pulling
        • Pull things Toward
      • Air Bubble
      • Cyclone
      • Improve Aim
      • Flight
    • Friction
      • Improve Speed
    • Light
      • Mirage
    • Buoyancy - Decrease Weight
    • ??




    Ultimate Fate (this section is largely in construction)

    Through their connection to the four elements of Fate, the Elvori can sense possibilities of the future and how these possibilities touch an individual or the world as a whole. Only the Elvori can sense these possibilities, and how they affect anything in any long term capacity. Fate is commonly believed to be the power that dictates the events that need to occur to maintain the existence of the world, though this is incorrect. Fate isnít partial to an entity, the same as the fact that a boulder is impartial to the things it falls on.

    Details on Imminent, Approaching, and Distant Futures.

    When the force of Fate is in power, the power of prediction is Dominant, but when Fate is out of power, it becomes a weaker, more passive ability.

    Passive Ultimate Fate - Divination
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    Earth is reading dice and ouiji,
    water is intoxicants and reading tea leaves,
    wind is inhalents and dowsing,
    fire is reading embers and flames.

    Dominant Ultimate Fate - Foresight
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    So I literally see something in the flames, or in the aurua borialis for Fire, a pool of liquid or in ice for Water, in the wind - the debrie picked up by it may form the image, or perhaps a non-clear gas for Wind, within the reflections of metal, or the smoothness of worn stone for Earth.

    Premonition Points
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    Either way, once these advanced premonitions occur, the spot it happens at has a sort of muscle memory of that event. A sight site . Other Elvori of that attunement may be see the premonition upon visit to that same place. Elvori then might take care in choosing where they make their premonitions, and may make repeated premonitions in the same area to store multiple premonitions. Over time, premonitions fade. Also, a site can be destroyed by natural or intentional causes, though it may be difficult to do so.

    Since these sites are impermanent, many elvori take it upon themselves to search out these sites and document them for the Archives. The Archives is a highly restricted place where premonitions of the future are stored. Few know of its location, despite the amount of scribes collecting documents to add to it.

    I'd say that these sites are hard to destroy, and unmanipulatable directly without great power. They can be interacted with, but you'd need a lot of energy directed at destroying it. Perhaps that is why many Seers decide to obscure it or hide it instead. The more predictions made at these locations, the harder it is to destroy. They might also be hidden in plain sight as a statue, a fountain, a fireplace, so on.

    Scribes
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    People that record Premonitions. This area needs your help!





    Workspace
    Spoiler
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    Fate:
    2. Remedying more of a connection between elemental and predictional powers so it's more concise as to how they connect to Fate.

    3. How the power over Fate is stronger or weaker depending on if it is in power or not. I was thinking that elemental and prediction power is kind of like a radio frequency.

    When Fate isn't in power, they are actually farther away from the frequency, and so the signal doesn't come in as strong. Static and such complicate things.

    Notes from Frathe: For a (predictional) system, you could go with:

    Fire (Pyromancy)

    Earth (Geomancy)

    Wind (Aeromancy)

    Water (Scrying pools; hydromancy)

    Detecting Attunement (dependent on how I go with elven appearance).

    The only definite way to tell what element or elements a seer is attuned to is through physical contact between two seers. The contact must last for more than a brief touch for this to occur. Customarily, Elvori etiquette calls for an unfamiliar seer to offer their hand in greeting to show that they do not wish to hide their attunement from their host. If a host chooses to grasp the hand of the stranger, they are accepting the offered knowledge. Class difference however affects this exchange - those of higher class are entitled to grasp hands with someone of a lower class. A refusal to accept a hand shake in this circumstance is a sign of disrespect.

    Still, in observing the actions of a seer, one might be able to tell what elemental attunement a seer might possess without touching them. For example, say an observer had a rare stone in their pocket. One might be able to deduce that the observed seer is an earth seer if their eyes darted to that pocket, or some other similar tell that showed the seer was aware of your pocket's contents. One might also be able to distinguish a seer based on the physical changes they have gained through attunement.


    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2015-02-23 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Adding "Tempering", describing Progressive Power, adjusting information to match.
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Wind- patterns blown in sand, dust or leaves. The shape of the clouds.

    What sort of specific events would be fated?

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    What sort of specific events would be fated?
    Good question...things like a battle, or a birth, or a storm. Things of that nature. Some seemingly smaller things could be fated too, such as someone serving a certain dish, or such.
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

    World Building Projects:
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    Dad-a-chum? Dum-a-chum? Ded-a-chek? Did-a-chick?
    Extended Signature | My DeviantArt | Majora's Mask Point Race
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    Is an interesting idea- if this is for a game system, I'd lean away from predestination. With most players, that's just asking for trouble.

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    Is an interesting idea- if this is for a game system, I'd lean away from predestination. With most players, that's just asking for trouble.
    Here's the thing, both options do not predestine anything. One says what should be done to keep the world from going eskew, the other lists events that will happen, but not how they will. But perhaps when Fate isn't in power, there isn't any prediction ability. Just the control over the elements. That could work.

    Either way, this technically is part of the background of a bunch of story notes I have, but I use this world often in D and D. Either way, as with most settings, some limits come into play, like "no elves" or something.
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2013-02-12 at 01:18 PM.
    Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes

    World Building Projects:
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    Order of the Stick Projects:
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    Dad-a-chum? Dum-a-chum? Ded-a-chek? Did-a-chick?
    Extended Signature | My DeviantArt | Majora's Mask Point Race
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Well, even an event happening at all can be prevented by a sufficiently difficult player.

    I dunno, my universe has some time-travel, so I'm trying to work out some of the same issues.

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    Well, even an event happening at all can be prevented by a sufficiently difficult player.

    I dunno, my universe has some time-travel, so I'm trying to work out some of the same issues.
    In the first type, that's entirely possible. Knowledge of the event could even in some cases cause it to not happen, which is why the elves would likely be inclined to not allow predictions to meet the masses.

    In the second, they might try to cause the event not to happen, but good plotting dictates their efforts to prevent an event might cause it to happen somewhere else, or cause the event TO happen.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    That works. What exactly do you mean by "decline", by the way?

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    So, by option one, whenever you "break" fate, the world unravels a little bit, and comes closer to the end times?

    And with option 2, you just know that something will happen out of this general category, but not what.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Alright, let me chime in with something slightly different, which might synergize with your ideas in some manner.

    In one setting I have been working on, Fate is what will happen if everything takes the easiest path.

    So physics is, much like here, an outcome of fate, since it says that if something has nothing supporting it, it falls.

    At a higher up level, using Fate to tell the future is much like using chemistry to predict the behavior of a gas cloud; while the actions of a single particle are non-deterministic, the over-all behaviors of the cloud are deterministic.

    Actually, that isn't entirely accurate; you can use Fate to predict individuals, but it won't take into account them doing heroic acts (so, for example, Fate might state that a baby bird will fall from its nest; it wouldn't predict if someone, who was in a particularly good mood that day, put it back, unless that person would do it most of the times they ran across a fallen baby bird.)

    Have you ever pretty much gone "autopilot" when doing a repetitive task, thinking about something else while your body does the rest? When that happens, you are following Fate much like how you normally follow Physics.

    If the Fate of an area starts getting glitchy enough (i.e., enough people start acting "out of character", magic modifies things so they fall up, etc, etc), Fate resets, mindlessly re-evaluating its predictions so they match observed reality.

    Then, of course, there are beings that aren't visible to Fate; Fate doesn't incorporate their actions when making predictions.

    Hope you can pull ideas from this mess...
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Alright, let me chime in with something slightly different, which might synergize with your ideas in some manner.

    *snip*

    Hope you can pull ideas from this mess...
    Alright, there are a few things I've gleaned from this...

    So in your system, what if I took a hard path? It's unpreditable? Does that imply that our normal behaviour is the behaviour that fate has fashioned us to be, or intuition that it is the right easy path?

    If we refer to small particles in a chemical or even say electrons or cells as "acting naturally", we generally refer to what the particle is essentially made to do. So if it acts irregularly, its an occurance where its going against fate in your model? (just trying to see if I'm understanding you right)

    And if that's the case, generally these small particles are working toward some much bigger goal - a reaction, a living body, what not. If we extend that scope to living beings, it would imply that everything has a purpose to the greater goal of the world, leaning toward my "world health" model.

    Magic it seems contradicts Fate often, at least in the immediate sense. It causes fate to reset. But in other cases, it could also assist Fate in resetting. Hmmmm...

    @ everyone -
    Last, this reminds me of a dream I had one time that I meant to put in the OP (spoiled for length):

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    I remember the dream being hazy, but feeling very real. Not foggy, more like everything had a sierra tone to it. I was in a store: a big grocery store, warehouse style. I'm unsure if someone knows what Sam's Club or BJ's Wholesale is, but one of those type of stores where they sell items in bulk for cheaper prices. So I can get a pack of 10 ketchup containers, that each cost less than other places, but I can't buy less than 10. Trade offs... Anyway, I was going through the store and saw prices on the walls and hanging from the ceiling. I still to this day remember the prices on the signs because in the dream I thought, "Wow, that's a great price." I was in the store with my family and we went down certain ailses and so on. This is the kind of store that also occasionally has free samples of food products for customers to taste, and at the end of the dream, I saw ahead a booth set up giving out samples of meatballs in marinara sauce. In the dream I was really excited, because that's pretty much my favorite thing to eat. It was getting quite a crowd, and I remember passing different people to reach the place. (this detail - passing people that I didn't recognize - is strange for my dreams, because I generally don't have multiple individuals in my dreams I don't know) After I get my sample, I head to the check out lanes where the rest of my family is checking out.


    Why did I tell you this dream? Well, after having this dream, I wrote it down, as at the time I was keeping a dream journal. 8 months later, I walk into a store with my family...and part way into shopping I stop dead in my tracks. I realized it all looked familiar (though I'd never been to this particular store before) and then I realized why - it was the store from my dream, and I remembered the dream partway into the happenings in the dream. Now at this point I had two choices. I could continue down the paths that my dream had led me, to see how accurate the dream was to what really happened (basically, to see if I had really dreamed it or not, or if I was just superimposing the dream on the appearance of the store) or I could just go a different way. Curiousity got the best of me, and my family turned down the SAME exact aisles, I saw the SAME exact prices, and low and behold, at the end of the dream, I passed ths SAME exact people and there was a meatball sample cart. The TASTE was the SAME. It was really wierd and unsettling. And I'm still not sure what to make of it. Why would this dream be predicting this event? Nothing special happened in it. Nothing earth shattering as far as I know. What would have happened if I'd skipped the aisles and gone straight for the meatballs? It's something so eerie, I think whatever system I go with for fate, it has to account for this in the system. My magic system was inspired by a dream, so why not fate? Not sure how to immediately relate it at the moment...anyone have some thoughts?
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2013-02-13 at 10:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    To clarify my system, let's say that you have an elf with the "magical" power to redefine a person's fate. Say it's a form of a curse; he makes a prophecy of doom that affects his foe.

    Let's say he goes up to Bob, a random dude, and curses him to never again enter the pub in the village.

    Now, what will happen is that, unless he tries really hard to go into the pub, he won't be able to go in; one of his friends will call him over to somewhere else when he tries to go in, or the pub is closed for repairs the day he goes to try to go in. It doesn't matter too much to him, so he doesn't resist it to much.

    Let's say a horrendously powerful and terrifying demon comes and commands Bob to enter the pub, or everything that he knows and loves will be devoured. No amount of fate will stop him from passing that threshold.

    Hard paths are unpredictable, until they become "easy" paths, since they are what you are doing when Fate resets. It isn't mind control, it is just an intuitive "path of least resistance."

    Of course, in my setting, one of the major factions use the manipulation of fate to screw people they don't like over (You pissed them off? Your farmers are going to get very restless very soon, since the Fatecarvers just made revolution the path of least resistance.)

    And, along with that, an experienced Fatecarver can do stuff to that particular channel that gives you incentive to stay on track, including making Fate actively backlash against you if you resist it (you want to resist the fact that he cursed your farm to have low yields? Be ready for your life to be ruined in a thousand painful ways.), and reward you for following fate (you know, with the last example, it behooves me to bring up a joke:
    What do you get if you play a Country song backwards?
    The singer gets his car back, his house back, his wife back, his dog back...)
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    To clarify my system, let's say that you have an elf with the "magical" power to redefine a person's fate. Say it's a form of a curse; he makes a prophecy of doom that affects his foe.

    Let's say he goes up to Bob, a random dude, and curses him to never again enter the pub in the village.

    Now, what will happen is that, unless he tries really hard to go into the pub, he won't be able to go in; one of his friends will call him over to somewhere else when he tries to go in, or the pub is closed for repairs the day he goes to try to go in. It doesn't matter too much to him, so he doesn't resist it to much.

    Let's say a horrendously powerful and terrifying demon comes and commands Bob to enter the pub, or everything that he knows and loves will be devoured. No amount of fate will stop him from passing that threshold.

    Hard paths are unpredictable, until they become "easy" paths, since they are what you are doing when Fate resets. It isn't mind control, it is just an intuitive "path of least resistance."

    Of course, in my setting, one of the major factions use the manipulation of fate to screw people they don't like over (You pissed them off? Your farmers are going to get very restless very soon, since the Fatecarvers just made revolution the path of least resistance.)

    And, along with that, an experienced Fatecarver can do stuff to that particular channel that gives you incentive to stay on track, including making Fate actively backlash against you if you resist it (you want to resist the fact that he cursed your farm to have low yields? Be ready for your life to be ruined in a thousand painful ways.), and reward you for following fate (you know, with the last example, it behooves me to bring up a joke:
    What do you get if you play a Country song backwards?
    The singer gets his car back, his house back, his wife back, his dog back...)
    I see. Hm. I'm not sure how I feel about people being able to actively alter a fate like that. I was trying to get it less personal...

    If I did it where it was possible, I'd say elves could only do so when Fate was in power.

    If I were to take the system as an influence, do you have any ideas for how to fit it with my current ideas?
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Honestly, removing the ability to alter the fate of an individual, it fits quite closely to #2; you'd have to remove the fact that in my system, Fate repairs itself (which is half the point) to have it fit in with method #1.

    The only real difference between #2 and my method minus fate manipulation is that in #2, you could predict that that coin will be flipped; in my method, you would predict that a certain person would flip a coin, and maybe even which coin it will be. Trying to get a read off an object in my system doesn't work, since they don't have behavior, and thus don't have a "path to follow" with fate, though I guess you could run predictions by proxy (see what channels lead into that particular outcome, for example.)
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Ah ha! And we get to an essential question! Do I want fate to heal itself, or for others to heal fate?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    That works. What exactly do you mean by "decline", by the way?
    Sorry I missed this! Think global warming, inbalance of natural order, decline to the world. Extinction. So on.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Have either of you read Asimov's Foundation trilogy? It has a similar concept to the one you're describing. In it, mathematical statistics have been combined to form a field called Psychohistory, which can predict the future, but only over large groups of people and long periods of time. So, they can say "The empire will fall in 300 years, and 30,000 years of anarchy will follow" but not "Bob will have a sandwich on Tuesday." The psychohistorians thus put in place a project to try to use their foreknowledge to steer the course of history, and prevent or mitigate the worst of what they predict.

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    Have either of you read Asimov's Foundation trilogy? It has a similar concept to the one you're describing. In it, mathematical statistics have been combined to form a field called Psychohistory, which can predict the future, but only over large groups of people and long periods of time. So, they can say "The empire will fall in 300 years, and 30,000 years of anarchy will follow" but not "Bob will have a sandwich on Tuesday." The psychohistorians thus put in place a project to try to use their foreknowledge to steer the course of history, and prevent or mitigate the worst of what they predict.
    That's essentially what I'm saying, yes. Perhaps I'll need to give it a read! Or spark notes it....Or research the setting...
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom View Post
    That's essentially what I'm saying, yes. Perhaps I'll need to give it a read! Or spark notes it....Or research the setting...
    I've been a lazy reader lately, so I'm still early into it, but it's not a tough read. A little dry - Asimov was clearly more interested in the science and sociology than the characters - but fast-paced an interesting. Not that long, either.

    And, of course, it's the basis of Sci-Fi in the way that Lord of the Rings is the basis of fantasy. :P

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by FreakyCheeseMan View Post
    I've been a lazy reader lately, so I'm still early into it, but it's not a tough read. A little dry - Asimov was clearly more interested in the science and sociology than the characters - but fast-paced an interesting. Not that long, either.

    And, of course, it's the basis of Sci-Fi in the way that Lord of the Rings is the basis of fantasy. :P
    I've read some Asimov, yes, and have this synopsis as well. Alas, I don't mind, the same way I didn't mind Tolkien being more interested in certain world building and historical aspects.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Psychohistory indeed! It's VERY similar in some respects, aye.

    Here's my two coppers worth on the general idea :)

    When fate is in power, a practised practitioner can manipulate their element in real time to change it's behaviour in some significant way (making water flow uphill, creating a mountain path from a craggy ridge, etc). They may also predict closely the outcome of current events (who will win a battle taking place right now, what the weather will do for the next day or two, if the tavern is going to be worth a visit later, etc). This is also the time where 'Pivotal Events' are predicted. Pivotal Events are the moments where fate has the potential to shift, either by repairing or weakening (usually one or the other, based on the outcome of the event). The individual/s receiving these predictions will have an elemental tie to the event itself, or the place it will take place in. If it's on the sea, a water seer will know of it's coming, a mountaintop battle will be seen by earth and air seers alike, etc.

    When fate is waning, a practised practitioner can manipulate their element in real time to a lesser extent (improving irrigation systems to make them work through dry periods, turning clay to soil over the course of a few months, giving favourable sailing conditions in bad or calm seas, etc). The Pivotal Events predicted will still be felt by those in touch with a relevant element but no new events will be seen, and the results of current Pivotal Events will be clouded (misinterpretation will be far more common).

    As such, Elves tend to become recluse and often nomadic at times of waning fate, considering carefully, and at great length, the events taking place around them. They will listen to things in the wind, water, earth and trees, and try to prepare themselves for Pivotal Events. When fate is waxing, they will become more active, sending envoys to key people, trying actively to prepare the world for it's next state of waning fate.

    More to come, sorry about the long absence Wombat, many things on my mind and in RL! Shall check in on this project more frequently though :D
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Psychohistory indeed! It's VERY similar in some respects, aye.

    Here's my two coppers worth on the general idea :)

    When fate is in power, a practised practitioner can manipulate their element in real time to change it's behaviour in some significant way (making water flow uphill, creating a mountain path from a craggy ridge, etc). They may also predict closely the outcome of current events (who will win a battle taking place right now, what the weather will do for the next day or two, if the tavern is going to be worth a visit later, etc). This is also the time where 'Pivotal Events' are predicted. Pivotal Events are the moments where fate has the potential to shift, either by repairing or weakening (usually one or the other, based on the outcome of the event). The individual/s receiving these predictions will have an elemental tie to the event itself, or the place it will take place in. If it's on the sea, a water seer will know of it's coming, a mountaintop battle will be seen by earth and air seers alike, etc.

    When fate is waning, a practised practitioner can manipulate their element in real time to a lesser extent (improving irrigation systems to make them work through dry periods, turning clay to soil over the course of a few months, giving favourable sailing conditions in bad or calm seas, etc). The Pivotal Events predicted will still be felt by those in touch with a relevant element but no new events will be seen, and the results of current Pivotal Events will be clouded (misinterpretation will be far more common).

    As such, Elves tend to become recluse and often nomadic at times of waning fate, considering carefully, and at great length, the events taking place around them. They will listen to things in the wind, water, earth and trees, and try to prepare themselves for Pivotal Events. When fate is waxing, they will become more active, sending envoys to key people, trying actively to prepare the world for it's next state of waning fate.

    More to come, sorry about the long absence Wombat, many things on my mind and in RL! Shall check in on this project more frequently though :D

    I like the idea of the elves living patterns changing based on what Forcipital Season (working name...thoughts?) it is. That could also be echoed with the dragons and luck, too, only in opposite. When luck is in power, they wander, when it isn't they stay in their self ascribed areas.

    I agree that elves will be very busy trying to archive pivital predictions for the waning times. Basically like saving up food for winter. Seasons of fate are like Spring, summer, and Harvest all rolled up into one for predictions and prophesy. This way you have books passed down describing events...and this is an enticing development.

    I appreciate you going along with my idea of predictions tieing to the element in some way, and perhaps the only way to get a complete prophesy to a pivital event is by all four elements working together.

    What is your opinion on my two determinations of fate?

    EDIT: I'm leaning toward the first one.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Alright! Some forward movement. Kind of.

    SO I've decided to go with option one:

    Fate is the events that need to occur to prevent natural disaster and maintain the balance of the forces that help make the world function. Therefore, fixed points in time that are predicted are events that must happen so that the world does not begin to decline. If one is not fulfilled, then the fixed points shift to what now must be in order to put things back into place. Kind of like a cosmic check and balance.

    I choose this one because I feel like the idea is more original. However, it causes more issues that need to be resolved...and I may need to rethink how fixed points work in that description, or 'pivotal events' as Veklim calls them. I may need help on that...

    Rules -

    1. Because the way the forces of this world works, Fate, Magic and Luck fluxuate between which force is dominant. These fluxuations are slow, but can be influenced by worldly events.

    2. Elemental power is not affected as dramatically as the powers of prediction are when fate is in it's diminished state.

    3. Predictions are made through the elements the elves control, as well as in dreams.

    4. Inheriently, elves have keen intuition and are often extreamly curious. They use their elemental knowledge to aid in being scholars, teachers, scientists, so on.

    Ideas that may or may not become cannon - (thoughts?)

    1. Veklim mentioned this and I've been considering it too - Predicted events are in some way tied to the element the elf is attuned to. Therefore, not every elf can have a full range of prediction. If this were the case, then if all four kinds of elemental powers go together, they could make a singular prediction that wasn't lacking.

    2. Fate Weight (Degrees of Destiny) - All predictions are classified in degrees:
    ----------1. Event
    ----------2. Detail
    ----------3. Identity
    ----------4. Place
    ----------5. Time
    One cannot get to the next degree until attaining the degrees before it. Predictions could then be classified as weaker or stronger depending on how much information is attained. With this, there could possibly be a 4th form of measurment for a being (Fate Weight) to measure how influential that person will be in the flow of time. This would interact with the degrees in some way.

    3. I had an idea that the closer it is to a fated event, the clearer or less clear it becomes. Not sure which.

    Problems/Questions that need answered -

    1. Is a prediction stronger when made in the place the prediction will occur at?

    2. Are there certain hot sites for predictions? - IE: a volcano for Ember Elves.

    3. What are the consequences for predictions?

    4. What is the limit to predictions? I don't want it so ALL elves can know EVERYthing ALL the time. Possible limits: Length of time it takes to make a prediction? Details? Multiple possibilities?

    5. What are predictions like? First person? Third person? Impressions? Riddles?

    6. Thoughts on the implication that Fate doesn't predict some things to keep from interupting the event?

    7. Does Fate heal itself over time, or does it require the Elves to heal it? Both? How would one heal Fate to begin with?

    8. What ill effects are cause by not fulfilling prophesy? How active do the elves become to influence events? Or do they just clean up afterwards?
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2013-02-22 at 02:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    New stuff in the OP. Big things happening. What do you folks think??
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Immediate Fate - Elemental and Physical Abilities
    (A Brainstorm)

    Alright, so I'm going to type up a bunch of what I have, and hopefully get some response on it from the people I've requested to help me brainstorm, and more. Here it goes.


    "As painters - men well taught by wisdom in the practice of their art - when they take in their hands pigments of various colors, and after fitting them in close combination - more of some, and less of others - they produce shapes from them resembling all things."
    ~ Empedocles



    Physics Term
    Water
    Wind
    Fire
    Earth
    Matter
    Liquid
    Gas
    Plasma
    Solid
    Weather
    x
    x
    -
    -
    Tectonics
    -
    -
    x
    x
    Thermodynamics
    x
    -
    x
    -
    Friction
    -
    x
    -
    x
    Gravity
    x
    -
    -
    x
    Buoyancy
    -
    x
    x
    -
    Light
    -
    x
    x
    -
    Reflect/Refract
    x
    -
    -
    x
    Magnetism
    -
    x
    -
    x
    Electromagnetism
    -
    x
    x
    -


    Things that apply to all four elements: Density, Gravity, Kinetic (motion and resting), Pressure (pressure and vacuum), Conservation of mass, Conservation of energy

    Things that are NOT elements/Do not have to do with Fate: Living things such as plants, animals, healing/killing by interacting directly with a living creature's body.

    It should be understood that fire, water, wind and earth are not truly the elements themselves but rather are strong representatives of these forces. They are nonetheless still strongly analogous of the elemental forces and embody the spirit of the elements as closely as physically possible on this plane of existence. Thus if one wishes to study water magic, then learning about the physical element of water is essential to become more strongly tied to the element. In otherwords, each representation of each element is the root aspect to begin study, but does not make up the entirety of the element. This also explains why there are some exceptions to the rule - some liquids are not attuned to the water element, just as not all solids are earth.

    -

    Fate and the elements cannot predict anything outside of the planet. Light is only able to be influenced once it enters the atmosphere. Because of this, light is negative fate because the world's natural state was darkness before the sun provides light on it. Darkness then would be positive fate.

    -

    You cannot create energy or mass from nothing. The conservation laws still apply.

    -

    Time supersedes all all forces. There are some things we just cannot do. You can try to change time but all you will end up doing is breaking your hour glass. You may be able to change the path you will walk, but never the path you have. Your power over fate depends first on you accepting that some things must happen, whether this is in your best interests or not.

    -

    Things I'm working on and need help with:
    * Uses in each element, and the manipulations of Physical laws such as friction, weather, inertia, so on. Throw out your ideas, even if they were in PM's previously.
    * Things to add to those above.
    * Development of Elemental Abilities based on above information.
    * Questions about system - in the OP, or in this post - ask away! The more I explain, the better I'll know the system, and the better my write up will be. Ideas, critiques, and assistance for.
    * The biggest thing - Elven Society: I orginially planned on having Elves to be tribal, like native american-esque. In this there are several different types of same element peoples - ember elves that live underground, Fire elves that live in the desert, fire elves that live near the equator, so on. Water in a river, or the ocean or whatever. So basically, nationalities of Elves that are defined by the physical characteristics related to regions, elemental abilities, and such. Tribes would be good at certain things, and be disadvantaged or advantaged by their elements. This would be fine if Elemental power was genetic. However.

    I recently had this idea - suppose elves attuned to an element of their own choosing. Their own calling. Then you'd have different nationalities attuning to different elements, and there would be a lot more melting pot atmosphere, with smaller settlements that were separate, centering around specified to certain elemental attunements. In this I picture large settlements where elemental users would be working together despite being of different elemental attunements, with temples for each element at "hot spots" of each element.

    So does anyone like one more than the other, or have any ideas after reading these? Or research or examples of real life examples of these (without elements of course)?
    Last edited by TheWombatOfDoom; 2014-03-31 at 04:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    OK, brief entry for now, more coming later!

    Firstly, I think Earth should correspond with down and Air with up. Kinda seems like you just missed that on the graph, but it's conspicuous by it's absence.

    Secondly, on the subject of the Elves, I envisioned them as living in mixed groups, with the balance in society being dependant on the geographical region. All tribes have all four elements amongst them, but those in the desert would favour the earth and fire for leadership and likely birthrates, whereas those on the coast would favour air and water, etc. I believe every elder council should be made of 4 elves, one of each element, and led by the seer of whichever element is considered the 'prime element' for the settlement.

    I'm really glad you're pushing effort into this, as a setting it's promising awesomeness, and I'm looking at it more and more with an eye to creating an entire new system for this to be played in tabletop! More on that (much) later methinks. For now, keep it up Wombat

    More coming, in the likely form of a rant
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Looks like an interesting idea. Maybe you could go the Dune route, and have attempted precognition by very powerful fate changers (whatever elven wizards are called) actually define the event it's trying to predict irrevocably.
    An example: Paul the incredibly powerful elf is trying to see what type of sandwich he's going to eat next. He detects a 30% chance of bacon, and a 70% chance of cheese. However, due to his immense fate warping powers, he unconsciously becomes an agent of fate, and takes (unbeknownst to himself) steps to ensure his next sandwich is cheese.
    This effect may never influence any hypothetical players, but it might be a good thing to have whirring away in the background.

    Also, perhaps have, as a side effect of fateomancy, very rapid return to the previous state after the effect has passed. Paul the elf just reduced the force of a large gust of wind; he loses concentration for a moment, and it's back to its former strength. Perhaps have this effect increased for more powerful fate warpers? (They can concentrate for longer, but when they stop things snap back faster than a less fate attuned individual's magic.)

    Hope you find this rambling useful.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    I like the idea of elves choosing the element they attune to. It presents more storytelling opportunities then just "elemental races."

    You seem to be using the name "ember elves" now. I think I prefer the simplicity of "fire elves".

    I really have to question having fire be a negative element, and water be a positive one. Fire is clearly positive--in fact, it's the most positive element, radiating heat and light as it does. Yes, it can also be destructive, but that's true of any power. And water seems more negative, considering that it's associated with things like ice. ADDED: Oh wait, you're having light be negative fate and darkness be positive. Good luck with that then. People are going to be confused, I'm just saying. Everyone expects the other way around.

    "Thermals" seem odd as an element, and gems seem like they should be closer to earth, not to fire. Maybe switch them and magma.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Ok, stuffs that immediately come to mind:

    -Negative Gravity should be Buoyancy (or some other better term).

    -Electromagnetic should be just Electricity, since you already have Light and Magnetism covered by separate source.

    -Why there is Reflect/refract and why it is water + earth? I don't think it is necessary since 'Light' can already cover how light behaves.

    -Similiarly, why there is density?

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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Ok, let's see...

    possible elemental-physical interactions:

    Earth: interacts with objects strongly through friction and gravity.

    Water: interacts with objects moderately through friction and gravity. However, produces buoyancy ("negative gravity") on objects in contact with it.

    Air: interacts weakly with objects through friction and gravity.

    Fire: produces anti-friction and anti-gravity. Also tends to disintegrate objects when it its purest form. Primitive flying machines might exist based on the use of impure fire. Also, flying magic is probably a combination of air and fire principles. Spells like Haste are likely fire magic. Disintegrate is likely a fire spell of utmost purity.
    Last edited by Chilingsworth; 2013-04-12 at 12:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate

    Quote Originally Posted by Frathe View Post
    I really have to question having fire be a negative element, and water be a positive one. Fire is clearly positive--in fact, it's the most positive element, radiating heat and light as it does. Yes, it can also be destructive, but that's true of any power. And water seems more negative, considering that it's associated with things like ice. ADDED: Oh wait, you're having light be negative fate and darkness be positive. Good luck with that then. People are going to be confused, I'm just saying. Everyone expects the other way around.

    "Thermals" seem odd as an element, and gems seem like they should be closer to earth, not to fire. Maybe switch them and magma.
    Water is usually a symbol of cleansing, healing, drinking, refreshing, etc. Thus, positive makes a lot of sense. Almost everything water does is inherently beautiful, even ice.

    Fire, on the other hand, is both beautiful and deadly. Even in its simplest incarnation, say, a torch, it's only your Reflex Save away from burns. A glass of water has no similar danger. (You "could" drown in a bathtub or something I guess, but it's still less common and less dangerous than fire). Especially considering what ELEMENTALISTS can do with it, Fire ends up being used a lot to destroy, I'd guess.

    As to "dark", I'd guess that Wombat is going for the idea that Darkness is natural. Energy must be expended to gain light, which means that it is the opposite of what is "normal." Scientifically, I support that. It does also offer a cool (if, I agree, a *tiny* bit confusing) aesthetic. Perhaps you can use it as an example of Positive/Negative Fate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Positive and Negative Fate
    Postive and Negative fates are not about what is "good" or "bad" as perceived by any race. Instead, it is about what is "natural" for the world. Take darkness and light, for example. While it would seem that darkness is "negative", it is the natural state of the world: only by exerting energy (and Fire) can you gain light, meaning that Light is "Negative." Not negative in the sense of being bad, but negative in the sense of being farther away from the state of nature.
    I definitely agree with the idea of tribes and choice. Would there be Sub-Domains, for lack of a better word? IE, someone focusing on Fire's Heat, using Thermals and quick geyser-bursts of air to jump around, or to warm their enemies up or get someone's blood pumping, or so on. This as opposed to using Fire's Flame.

    Still, it reminds me of the Native American system: you go out into the wilderness, take some hallucinogenics (or just do random stuff), gain insight into who you are, come back a "new Person" with a new task. Then again, in simplistic societies, each family does everything. Tribes like the Lakota don't have a "trade" system, and in many cases don't have a single "Chief" as such.

    So what level of civilization exists in Aldain? Correspondingly, how widespread is what technology? Europe had machine guns at the same time Afganistan got flintlock rifles. So are there different parts of the world that are at different technological levels?

    The easiest way to figure that out is to place down where each piece of technology was invented, then plot out how (and thus when) it would get traded or given to another area.
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