Gnomes

[mistformsquirrl]

I like gnomes myself - a lot better than halflings. To be fair this is precisely BECAUSE of the whole "tinkerer/Rube Goldberg gadget" type thing. I know it's not for everyone, but me? I love it.

The only reason I usually don't play gnomes is because about 90% of the time I play a martial class of some kind, and since I like my gnomes to be tinkerers and thinkers... well getting bashed upside the head for a living doesn't fit the image I prefer.

Just personal preference of course.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Scot? Aye, laddie. (Mix in Viking and/or Russian to taste for extra dourness or mishmash of a "dwarven accent.")

Personally I like to add some German to my Dwarves and throw in some "Superior Dwarven Engineering". I know this can step on Gnomish toes a bit, but I kinda see Dwarves making big practical things and making them very well/sturdily, while Gnomes Innovate, miniaturize, automate and make things that are novel/Rube Goldberg.


Now that I think of it this makes Gnomes kind of like modern Japan including the internet's "Oh Japan, you so crazy!" stereotype.

[mistformsquirrl]

So you're saying Gnomes invented Muscle March? It all makes sense now <O.O>

[Deepbluediver]

Why does everyone hate gnomes and avoid them like the plague? Is it because they're just not a very good race or is it because of fluff?

Mechanically, they're racial traits are pretty ho-hum, at best. That doesn't make them bad though, lots of other races (including core races) are pretty mediocre.

My biggest issue was always the fluff. Both gnomes and halflings are supposed to be small dexterous, tricky, happy-go-lucky underground living races. In otherwise, the only real difference is pretty in the name.

Since halfings had more historical support and literary history, people tended to go with them.


Personally, I prefer revamping the gnome fluff entirely, and use the gnomes as presented in Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrion novel (and sequels).
Her gnomes are basically neither good nor evil, but lawful to the extreme. They are very formal and don't do jokes, they are not tricksters, and they pretty much live by schedules, rules, and regulations. They don't understand what doing some one a "favor" means because everything is fair trade and an eye for an eye, and are the kind of race that would complain the U.S. tax code, (all 8000+ pages of it) isn't specific enough.

You wouldn't necessarily need to play every PC gnome like this, but with the plethora of more chaotic-leaning races in D&D, I think that gnomish society would make a good contrast. And it would certainly help differentiate them from halflings.

[ArcturusV]

Or rather Gnomes like the Gnomes from Arcana: Steamworks and Magic. The Gnomes there are seen as helpless little harmless guys who happen to be good merchants and made good investments in the occasional half-ogre bodyguards.

The truth being they are a Lawful Evil style race. They are the mafia behind the scenes, have their fingers in every pie. Heck, the fact that Half-Ogres exist as a race (instead of just a few freak individuals) is because they are kidnapping human women for a half-ogre breeding facility and such, just so they can have large, stupid, easily controlled and very tough bodyguards to enforce their will...

[Starbuck_II]

And if we want to talk "short race stereotypes," why should halflings come off better than gnomes, given that halflings come in "chubby Tolkien hairy-bare-feet" flavor, kender flavor (the less said the better), or "Lidda is totally hawt while being the size of a human child, no subtext here" flavor?

Well, Lidda was pretty hawt EM I right? I was never into Tolkien chubby halfings.
All halfings have hairy bare feet. I got it too (far down my lineage).

That might be why I like halfings they feel like home.

[MukkTB]

Well gnomes aren't really compelling mechanically. Small + Con Bonus is about it. That means they don't often get mentioned in guides. I think the last handbook I read that recommended using a gnome was for mounted characters.

Then there's the problem of gnomes and halflings occupying nearly the same niche. Then there's the problem of gnomes as magical technicians. That comes with a flavor that does not always complement a D&D campaign.

[Answerer]

Mechanically, they're racial traits are pretty ho-hum, at best. That doesn't make them bad though, lots of other races (including core races) are pretty mediocre.

Well gnomes aren't really compelling mechanically. Small + Con Bonus is about it.

Uhhh... Small + Con bonus is one of the best set of racial traits in the game. It's no Bonus Feat, but +Con is the best ability score bonus in the game, and anyone who's non-melee (and even some who are) can make great use of Small size. And the bonus to Illusion casting is nice even if you aren't a Killer Gnome.

[Baroncognito]

and anyone who's non-melee (and even some who are) can make great use of Small size.

Small isn't the problem for anyone who wants to do melee with a Gnome or Halfling, it's the -2 str.

Sure, you can make agility based fighters, but it requires more feats.

[Answerer]

Small isn't the problem for anyone who wants to do melee with a Gnome or Halfling, it's the -2 str.

Sure, you can make agility based fighters, but it requires more feats.

Eh, -2 Str can be overcome too. Particularly if we take Tome of Battle as the norm rather than Player's Handbook, where both feats and ability scores are reduced somewhat in their value since you have maneuvers now, it's not exactly a deal-breaker.

You do have to build for it, though, I agree, which is why I said some melee characters. Most melee characters, yes, are not going to want Small size or a Strength penalty.

[erikun]

I happen to really like gnomes; they are one of my favorite demi-human races. A lot of times I hear that they "don't have a racial identity" but for me, not forcing the entire race into a narrow stereotype help make them feel more realistic. They tend to be inquisitive and curious, and they have their own scholars, arcanists, clergy, alchemists, travelers, rangers, gem-cutters, fighters, rogues, philosophers, and diplomats. The fact that the race in general tends to appeal to me - smart, inquisitive, magical, ingenuitive - pretty well reinforces my like of the race.

Some may say "but you can get all that with the elves" except that elves are very poor at being a smart magical race. Heck, they're pretty poor at surviving by themselves in a forest, which gnomes excel at.

Small isn't the problem for anyone who wants to do melee with a Gnome or Halfling, it's the -2 str.

Sure, you can make agility based fighters, but it requires more feats.

I have found the 15-foot movement speed in medium/heavy armor to be a far bigger limitation for a melee fighter. The equilivant of -1 damage is pretty much easy to ignore.

[Baroncognito]

I have found the 15-foot movement speed in medium/heavy armor to be a far bigger limitation for a melee fighter. The equilivant of -1 damage is pretty much easy to ignore.

I keep forgetting about that. I play a Halfling Ranger in pathfinder and took the racial ability that gives me a 30 foot move speed, and I've only ever worn light armour and medium armour that counted as light for the purposes of calculating move speed.

[Answerer]

There are lots of ways around that anyway. I mean, sticking with a Chain Shirt rather than Full-plate is not likely to ruin you or anything.

[Edenbeast]

I don't like Kender, Hobbits are OK. But since Dark Sun, I'm a big fan of Halflings. And I think Gnomes provide decent meat, but not enough for a large family.

[erikun]

There are lots of ways around that anyway. I mean, sticking with a Chain Shirt rather than Full-plate is not likely to ruin you or anything.

You must have an odd group if losing 4 AC at first/second level is no concern.

[Deepbluediver]

I don't like Kender, Hobbits are OK. But since Dark Sun, I'm a big fan of Halflings. And I think Gnomes provide decent meat, but not enough for a large family.

My biggest issue with Kender was the way their fluff/backstory was presented. I mean, dragons are well known for their love of hoarding, but everyone thinks they are just the bees-knees.

But for the Kender, I felt that it was like: here's this race of incredibly annoying kleptomaniacs, but they mean well and are just so gosh-darned adorable they no one can stay mad at them for long and if you don't love these little bundles of joy then you are a terrible TERRIBLE person for it!


And most player's inherent response is: first, stop trying to dictate how I roleplay my character, and second I don't give 2 farts how noble you SAY they are, no one but NO ONE gets a pass on stealing MY treasure, I don't care if they're a goblin or a solar or Asmodeus himself. So take your Kender and piss off.

But maybe that was just me.



And for your other problem, I think the issue is you're going after wild gnomes. The farm-raised ones are much more tender, IMO, and they fatten up nicely.

[Baroncognito]

You must have an odd group if losing 4 AC at first/second level is no concern.

I never had a character that could afford half-plate at first/second level.

[lsfreak]

I guess I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with the idea of having smaller furniture and/or rooms around (an idea that goes back to Tolkien, what with the Prancing Pony in Bree) but not have a problem with the idea that elves have an unspoken congenital learning disability for their first century of life, given that a 16-year-old human fighter 1 and 116-year-old elven fighter 1 are equally skilled.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. I have a problem with that too (elves live to 120-150, but often commit ritual suicide earlier to keep the soul from withering in a dying body). I have a problem with all the major races, for one thing or another, and refluff them to suit my view.

So yeah, gnomes have gotten some bad stereotype action too (annoying prankster, idiotic Dragonlance motormouths with a Rube Goldberg fetish, or those creepy pointed-red-cap figurines that your grandmother breaks out in around the same time she gets 20 cats), but I'm not sure why they would actually fare any worse than any other race in terms of "I just can't stand this race."

The big difference is that I think the stereotypes that go with gnomes are not merely annoying, but can easily damage the overall feel or tone of a game. You can change the fluff that goes with elves and dwarves and a number of others quite a bit and people buy it, but in my experience, at least, it's much harder to get new fluff for gnomes without the old picture of comical halfpints creeping into the picture.

[Calmar]

To me there's no point to gnomes. If I want a short race inclined towards artifice, I have dwarves. If I want a short race that loves a homely life and is rather in touch with nature, I have halflings.

4E makes them fey, but at the end of the day they are just another race of somewhat generic action heroes in that edition. (< my subjective opinion)

[Clistenes]

As I said in another thread:

You know, I've realized I hate 90% of the "good races": The thieving faerunian haflings, the cleptomaniac kenders, the demented tinker gnomes, the prankster rock gnomes, the flatterer (kalamarian) forest gnomes, the aloof, vain elves, the emo Tanis-like half-elves, the even emoer Drizzt-like renegade drows...

The planetouched are like meh...

Dwarves are generally O.K., and I can probably tolerate those moth*******ng bastards, the humans, only because I am human.

Now that I think about it, I usually only play humans...

I'm a fantasy racist.

I'm OK with the short races (and with the other races) as long as they don't make them annoying or a joke.

I like the concept of the halflings as honest, good, hardworking country people with a core of steel; I'm OK with them being nomads (boats or wagons, I don't care) too...what I don't like is when they try to make them all natural thieves just because the rogue class is the one that fits them better. Not every race need to be 100% identified with a class, sometimes the race can be just background, like being from Perrenland or Almor or Tethyr or Amn.

As for the gnomes, what is with the prankter thing? Everybody I know hates that. It's as if they were purposelly trying to make the race dislikable! Couldn't the gnomes be left as a race of brainy, peaceful, nature loving artificers and mages? The elves already fill the role of the nature-loving mages, I know, but many people dislike elves because they are often so aloof, vain, arrogant...etc., so there is a niche for the gnome race there.

[Answerer]

You must have an odd group if losing 4 AC at first/second level is no concern.

I never had a character that could afford half-plate at first/second level.

Wow, swordsaged on a question specifically directed to me. Impressive!

[Madara]

In Ebberon, probably one of the coolest Nations is the Gnomish one. Indeed, I think the problem with gnomes comes from their setting. I for one find them perfect for the type of characters I enjoy. Optimization wise, they come with a nice +2 Con and small size, which works well for almost any build. I just happen to ignore ALL of the prankster fluff and make my character. For me, the race doesn't make the character, in fact probably the few things I get from the race is naming(from RoS) and PrCs. Other than that, I look at abilities and ask "With these natural talents, what would a Gnome do?"

The problem(if there is one) isn't with the race, but with the setting's portrayal. On the bright side, they don't suffer the same fate as Goblins.

[nedz]

And for your other problem, I think the issue is you're going after wild gnomes. The farm-raised ones are much more tender, IMO, and they fatten up nicely.

No, no, no — the Garden ones are the ones you want. They are much easier to catch and have already been fattened up for you.

[Starbuck_II]

4E makes them fey, but at the end of the day they are just another race of somewhat generic action heroes in that edition. (< my subjective opinion)

4E version rocks, they have a lair and a minion badger named Francis. They fought Demogorgon and lived to talk about it.

[ericgrau]

I have found the 15-foot movement speed in medium/heavy armor to be a far bigger limitation for a melee fighter. The equilivant of -1 damage is pretty much easy to ignore.

I wouldn't use a chain shirt, except before I could afford full plate, but there are other ways around the loss of speed. Boots of striding and springing and longstrider in core, and outside of core there are speed boosting feats. Even in basic psionics. But assuming you're waiting until level 4-6 to do it the core way, (a) that's where many campaigns start anyway and (b) you can manage for a couple levels or so. A lot of the time melee only needs to take point and hold that position, and let foes charge in, while the casters and range take it from there. Especially, but not only, if you have a reach weapon. Or by the time you drop the front foe another is within 15 feet, if not adjacent. Or you charge, or you use a backup ranged weapon like a sling, etc.

It's not nothing at first, but it's tolerable at first and later it is practically nothing.

[North_Ranger]

Personally, I enjoy Pathfinder's take on the gnomes. Because they were originally refugees from the fae world, gnomes are quirky and curious, much like the more benevolent fae creatures. They also physically require new things to explore and experience, as a gnome who falls victim to the every-day doldrum and apathy suffers a condition called Bleaching, which is essentially premature aging and loss of mental faculties. As long as a gnome has something new to try and do, she can look forward to living to a ripe old age.

Plus, they like hats. You can't hate a race that loves flamboyant headgear.

[tiercel]

The big difference is that I think the stereotypes that go with gnomes are not merely annoying, but can easily damage the overall feel or tone of a game. You can change the fluff that goes with elves and dwarves and a number of others quite a bit and people buy it, but in my experience, at least, it's much harder to get new fluff for gnomes without the old picture of comical halfpints creeping into the picture.

I guess this is what I see as being odd; it seems to me that gnome stereotypes are LESS ingrained in fantasy lore in general than those of, say, elves or dwarves (open any fantasy tome that contains either and you are far more likely than not to find a supercilious, elfier-than-thou Ancient Race which is curiously unadvanced compared to other races and a race of bearded Gruffy McGruffaxebeards hammering away in their forges).

Thus, I would think it would be EASIER to refluff the whole "hur hur, those wacky prankster gnomes" thing; I don't know, some memes seem curiously durable in the absence of a powerful singular counterexample ("you spoony bard" comes to mind, even though bards are actually pretty awesome).

[lsfreak]

I think elves and dwarves are so common that subversions aren't really something to bat your eyelashes at anymore. A Tolkien-esque ideal is as common as something completely unexpected (Dragon Age's ghetto-elves, Elder Scrolls' steampunk dwarves-that-are-elves, Warcraft's drug-PSA-gone-wrong elves, as three examples). Dwarves are more limited than elves. But gnomes are even more limited, being common enough to have expectations go with them, but lacking the overdone-ness that lets you completely break those expectations.

It may also be the people I've played with are just weird, though.

[SirKibble]

a) They're often played as comic relief doofi messing with strange inventions or composing limericks; kinda grating.

b) They're not in Tolkein. I'm trying to bemoan the decline of Western Civilization over here.

c) How many "short races" do we need?

there is only 3. if we are exclusivly looking at the player handbook. but while we are looking at said book. how many medium large races do we need? in the end its all what you classify as short. gnomes have there purpose and that says more than some of the medium or larger playable races *cough* fey creatures from elemental evil companion book *cough*

ps. there is such thing as badass gnomes. have you ever seen a gnome wizard? not the cute thing you expect.

[nedz]

I've seen plenty of bad-ass Gnomes.

Also, thread necromancy.