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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    I remember that, in this strip, Haley tried to kick Belkar off the team, despite the fact that Roy would never do such a thing, it is arguably not a good-aligned act, and Belkar has proven his worth time and time again.

    In fact, if she did leave him behind, Haley would have been dead at the hands of the Thieves Guild.

    So, why did she try to throw him out, despite all of this? I am trying to find out the reason, but I have found none that stick long.
    Last edited by dnzrx; 2013-02-26 at 09:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    ... because he was a psychotic little halfling that had ruthlessly murdered the Oracle AND a random gnome merchant for no reason?

    Kicking him off the team was absolutely good-aligned, allowing him to stay around without any sort of justice was the nongood thing to do.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    I think it should be pretty clear by reading the strip two strips before this.

    In 568 Belkar kills the Oracle, even before he was able to answer a single question.
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2013-05-17 at 06:59 AM. Reason: Edited to add singature

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Because Belkar was out of control. He killed whoever he wanted, whenever he wanted. He was a bloodthirsty, digusting little creature who always managed to dodge the full consequenses of his actions. He still is, but he's pretending not to be. Argueably, Mr. Scruffy has made him a somewhat better person.

    Haley tried to kick him out simply because he went to far. When he killed the Oracle, he killed the greatest chance the Order ever had of getting back together (excluding soul-selling). The Oracle was their best bet at getting the team back together, and Belkar killed him over pretty much nothing. That was the final straw and one of the biggest offences Belkar had ever done to the team.

    I'm not going to pretend that I understand the entirety of the alignment system, but how is not wanting to work with a murderous, out-of-control psycopath "not a good-aligned act"? Belkar may have proven that every now and again, he can kill someone the Order wanted dead. He has also proven time and time again to be a horrible team-player and has often screwed things up for the Order, including ditching the casters back in the dungeon, setting the bandit camp on fire and causing "Skullsy" to give away their position while sneaking. And regarding the Thieves Guild, Haley can't see the future. How was she supposed to know she'd be in danger later on?

    Belkar deserved to be kicked out, and he dodged a bullet thanks to the memory charm.
    Last edited by Cizak; 2013-02-26 at 09:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Another thing: who cast that memory charm?

    But what would Roy do? I know that keeping Belkar on the team is morally questionable at best, but leaving behind a sick teammate, good or evil, is VERY cold-hearted at best, evil at worst.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    In my opinion, keeping Belkar on the team is a Lawful thing - it's accepting his loyalty as a teammate, even if his morals aren't the same as yours, and accepting, as a team, some sort of responsibility for his actions.

    Roy is Lawful (even if not terribly so), so he's willing to count Belkar as an ally, and is willing to accept that keeping Belkar in line is, in some ways, part of his duty as his party leader.

    Haley is Chaotic, so she's less likely to follow this thinking. She's willing to have Belkar at her side for as long as he is useful because she is a practical person - but once he becomes useless (sick due to the Mark of the Justice), she sees no reason to keep him around any longer.

    Of course, the irony of the cosmos provided for Belkar to later save her life. Something that, personally, I'd like Haley to acknowledge with a little bit more gratitude.


    Edit: Oh, and if Roy was on that particular situation? He'd probably drag Belkar around simply to not risk letting him loose. And yes, he'd probably trigger the mark himself, if the Oracle didn't arrange for it.
    Last edited by Ellye; 2013-02-26 at 09:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    The memory charm is a permanent feature of the sunken valley. Every visitor only remembers the answers to the questions and fills up the missing with imagined details (Read 324+ for details on this).

    I'm not quite sure what Roy would have done. I would go with chain him up and drag to someone who can deal with him. (And he wasn't really sick - he was punished from the Mark of Justice triggering in 569)

    Edit: As for "what would Roy do": We know somewhat what he did (i.e. nothing special), but that was after the whole Belkar goes team member of the month in Greysky City. My answer was for the hypothetic scenario with 567-570 happening with Roy instead of Haley.
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2013-05-17 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Edited to add singature

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Another thing: who cast that memory charm?
    someone working for the Oracle.

    But what would Roy do? I know that keeping Belkar on the team is morally questionable at best, but leaving behind a sick teammate, good or evil, is VERY cold-hearted at best, evil at worst.
    I definitely think Roy would've kicked him out as well. Heck, if the Oracle hadn't arranged for the MoJ to go off, I think Roy would've activated it himself with his command word.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Another thing: who cast that memory charm?

    But what would Roy do? I know that keeping Belkar on the team is morally questionable at best, but leaving behind a sick teammate, good or evil, is VERY cold-hearted at best, evil at worst.
    Do you even read the comic?

    The Oracle set up the memory charm.
    No, leaving Belkar behind isn't morally ambiguous or cold hearted, slitting his murderous throat on the spot is, arguably. Leaving him behind wouldn't be immoral because of what might happen to him, if anything, it would be because of the risk that he gets better and slays more people.

    Roy probably would have went further than Haley, leaving him to the kobolds.
    The mark as after all activated in their town.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Another thing: who cast that memory charm?

    But what would Roy do? I know that keeping Belkar on the team is morally questionable at best, but leaving behind a sick teammate, good or evil, is VERY cold-hearted at best, evil at worst.
    ... have you read the comic? I suggest you do so, because you are asking some very very obvious questions (no offense)

    No one cast the memory charm, it is permanently set in the valley so that anyone who leaves only remembers the "on the record" prophesies. This is explained here

    And what would Roy do? As explained here Roy is going to try and keep Belkar aimed at the enemies until he dies and then Roy will leave him dead. Though it is implied that that is ONLY because he had done his "fake-reform" by then.

    It is likely Roy may have straight up killed him had Belkar gone on a killing spree. Belkar -was- remanded into Roy's custody from the PREVIOUS time he had killed someone.

    Edit: Actually, that's a good point. Roy would have simply handed Belkar over to the kobald village. I forgot they were there.
    Last edited by FujinAkari; 2013-02-26 at 09:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    By the way, I don't think Belkar would have killed that random gnome if Roy was there.
    But he would probably have killed the Oracle anyway (though, of course, the scenario itself would no longer apply if Roy was there, but whatever).

    And I don't think that Roy would be greatly pissed by Belkar killing the Oracle. Pissed, yes, but not to the point of leaving Belkar to die (or killing him himself).
    Last edited by Ellye; 2013-02-26 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Sorry, but I simply do not have enough time to read everything, so I am missing a few bits and pieces of information.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Do read, you won't regret it. :)

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    There's no way this topic isn't a troll.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    I think Haley said it all: Belkar was kept on the team as long as he was an asset. With the murder of the Oracle being a huge hindrance, plus the activation of the Mark of Justice nullifying any and all utility he had (as he wasn't even able to fight anymore), Belkar crossed the line to liability without ever glancing back.

    Leaving a sick Belkar behind just because he's sick would not be a Good thing to do, and that's why memory-wiped Haley keeps him around.

    But leaving behind a Belkar who has activated the magical punishment for murdering people, without a good reason to do so (he didn't, say, murder someone in order to save a companion, or something), is at the very least karmic justice, he's just reaping what he sowed.

    And yes, I do think Roy would have let him in the hands of the kobolds, and had fun with the full irony of the situation.
    Last edited by Roland Itiative; 2013-02-26 at 11:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Sorry, but I simply do not have enough time to read everything, so I am missing a few bits and pieces of information.
    This is not a gag-a-day webcomic. If you don't follow the plot you should expect to miss...everything.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Sorry, but I simply do not have enough time to read everything, so I am missing a few bits and pieces of information.
    Then don't be surprised when people are incredibly annoyed at your questions that you can answer yourself.

    Haley wanted to leave Belkar behind because he activated his mark of justice through his own murderous tendencies. I don't know what kind of world you live in, but killing random people is generally frowned upon by, well, any good people. She chose not to because she no longer remembered why he was sick. Note that she chooses not to remove the curse later when she realizes the cause of it.

    Belkar was suffering the exact penalty prescribed by the rules of his release from prison. It's not evil or neutral to allow that punishment to continue. Roy likely would have done the same thing. The Diva was referring to Roy leaving Elan behind, who was captured through no fault of his own, not allowing someone to be legally punished for three murders.
    Last edited by NerdyKris; 2013-02-26 at 12:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Sorry, but I simply do not have enough time to read everything, so I am missing a few bits and pieces of information.
    That's not really an option with an actual narrative. You do realize this is an actual narrative, yes?
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelbiuj View Post
    Do you even read the comic?

    The Oracle set up the memory charm.
    No, leaving Belkar behind isn't morally ambiguous or cold hearted, slitting his murderous throat on the spot is, arguably. Leaving him behind wouldn't be immoral because of what might happen to him, if anything, it would be because of the risk that he gets better and slays more people.

    Roy probably would have went further than Haley, leaving him to the kobolds.
    The mark as after all activated in their town.
    I thought that the memory charm was set up by QuestGuard.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Considering that cutting him down after he killed the gnome would probably have been well-deserved, I'm hardly concerned about why Haley wanted to throw him out of the team after a second unnecessary murder.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Wow, people are upset at me simply for the reason that I am way too busy to read the entire webcomic. The fact that the titles are not intuitive does not help things. With this kind of attitude, no wonder you all do not get new blood every once in a while.

    On a more serious note, yes. Belkar deserve to have that punishment and maybe Haley was justified to leave him behind. But it does not change two facts:

    1.) Belkar is a valuable asset in the past and will prove himself during the thieves guild attack.

    2.) Haley is a poor leader in the fact that she does not try to restrain Belkar or anything despite his well known hatred of small orange beings. It also did not help that the Oracle was escalating the situation by mocking Belkar and Haley did not do anything to stop the Oracle.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Wow, people are upset at me simply for the reason that I am way too busy to read the entire webcomic. The fact that the titles are not intuitive does not help things. With this kind of attitude, no wonder you all do not get new blood every once in a while.

    On a more serious note, yes. Belkar deserve to have that punishment and maybe Haley was justified to leave him behind. But it does not change two facts:

    1.) Belkar is a valuable asset in the past and will prove himself during the thieves guild attack.

    2.) Haley is a poor leader in the fact that she does not try to restrain Belkar or anything despite his well known hatred of small orange beings. It also did not help that the Oracle was escalating the situation by mocking Belkar and Haley did not do anything to stop the Oracle.
    1.) Belkar can be a valuable asset, but at the point Haley decides to ditch him, the guild attack is in the future. She has no way of knowing there will be a guild attack, and thus no way of knowing how helpful Belkar will be in it.

    2.) Haley is indeed a poor leader. That was one of the themes of that arc; the team falls without their actual leader. I don't think many will contend this.

    3.) You stated you haven't read a lot of a very story-driven comic. People said (perhaps a bit vehemently) that if you do not read most of it, you will not get most of it. That said, simply from looking at posting titles (for instance, "Pixie in the Playground"), it would seem there is a constant influx of new blood.
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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    The fact that the titles are not intuitive does not help things.
    "The titles are not intuitive"? How is this an excuse, or even a reason, for not reading the comic? Besides, you are just wrong. They are very intuitive. The first word of each title tells you which one you are reading, and where it falls in the overall narrative. Start with "1 ", then go on in ascending order. The story will make a lot more sense then.

    And people are not upset that you haven't read the entire comic, people are surprised that you come looking for answers to questions before you did so.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    1.) Belkar is a valuable asset in the past and will prove himself during the thieves guild attack.

    2.) Haley is a poor leader in the fact that she does not try to restrain Belkar or anything despite his well known hatred of small orange beings. It also did not help that the Oracle was escalating the situation by mocking Belkar and Haley did not do anything to stop the Oracle.
    Belkar is an asset as long as he find more amusing and gainfull to help the oots than not. You forget as well that he was about to switch side for Xykon's while part of the resistance and did not only because he found more fun to throw a cat at Tsukiko's face. In the past, he was more of a loose canon than a reliable member of the party. Roy had to trick him, then place a mark of justice on him so he could control him. Now, he's more reliable because he realised that he would be under less scrutiny by acting like "party-member of the month" than just acting on his impulses.

    Which lead to his helpfullness during the thieve's guild incident. This was a direct consequence of his new-found point of view and at the time Haley threw him away, she had absolutely no idea that he would have some "illumination" and try to be more helpfull. And Haley wanted to avoid Greysky city, they ended up there because Celia messed up. At the time, what she knew of Belkar in the past few days was :
    -almost switched sides during a raid, that he admitted himself.
    -killed an innocent gnome for no reason.
    -killed the oracle out of spite and ruining a good chance to get valuable data to regroup with the rest of the party.

    As she stated herself, he was on the verge beetween asset and liability and his last few actions made him more a liability than an asset. Especially that since the curse started off, his fighting abilities were void. When you realise you have no-control over a psychotic halfling and get such an opportunity, you take it and get rid of the little bastard. With any luck, his first random encounter will finish him off and the world will be a tad better (from Haley or any good character point of view. I, for one, enjoy that little bastard antics :p )

    Now as for Haley's leadership. Eck, she's the first to admit that she's not cut to be a leader. She never wanted to be, because she only wanted to be held acountable from her own actions, and if she can avoid that too, it's even better. As for controling Belkar, he barely listened to Roy, why would he bother listening to her ? And I think Roy would have done the same, he didn't seem to mind when Haley throw Belkar away and just commented that it lacked the same impact when she did it a second time with the priest of Loki.

    Nah, there's nothing "evil" in getting rid of Belkar at that time, she couldn't know that he would "grow", nor that she would fight the guild as she was actively trying to avoid that. She may not be the best leader, but in my opinion, she made the right call given the situation.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Wow, people are upset at me simply for the reason that I am way too busy to read the entire webcomic. The fact that the titles are not intuitive does not help things. With this kind of attitude, no wonder you all do not get new blood every once in a while.
    Over 100 people registered at the forums in just the past 7 days. Doesn't sound like there's a problem getting new blood to me.

    On a more serious note, yes. Belkar deserve to have that punishment and maybe Haley was justified to leave him behind. But it does not change two facts:

    1.) Belkar is a valuable asset in the past and will prove himself during the thieves guild attack.
    If Belkar hadn't killed the Oracle, they could have gotten the answers they needed, which means that they would have gone directly to a good cleric instead of ending up in Greysky City, thus avoiding the whole Thieves' Guild fiasco. Belkar's actions needlessly complicated efforts to resurrect Roy. And being a valuable asset in the past means little if he's starting to cause more problems for for the party than some of their villains.

    2.) Haley is a poor leader in the fact that she does not try to restrain Belkar or anything despite his well known hatred of small orange beings. It also did not help that the Oracle was escalating the situation by mocking Belkar and Haley did not do anything to stop the Oracle.
    Belkar didn't kill the Oracle the last time they were there. And while Haley not being a great leader is established in the comic, are you seriously going to blame Haley for thinking that Belkar might have enough sense to not kill someone they specifically needed to get information from? Belkar may be a murderous psychopath, but he doesn't kill everyone he meets. Belkar didn't have his weapons in hand, and even Belkar himself didn't seem to be planning to kill the Oracle until right before actually doing the deed. With no weapons out and with no threatening language, how is Haley supposed to know that Belkar was on the brink of murder?

    And since you're asserting that Belkar has been a valuable asset in the past and that it's wrong to leave him behind, why are you then turning around and suggesting that they should be placing him under citizen's arrest "just in case", when Belkar has previously proven that he is capable of interacting with a kobold (this very same kobold in fact) without killing him? If they have to be that careful with Belkar, then maybe he's not the asset you're claiming him to be.

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Wow, people are upset at me simply for the reason that I am way too busy to read the entire webcomic. The fact that the titles are not intuitive does not help things. With this kind of attitude, no wonder you all do not get new blood every once in a while.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean with "titles" (if you mean the strip titles, they're kinda optional anyway. If you mean the forum titles, they're kinda irrelevant), but I think the responses you got are pretty good/nice. Several people have given you answers to your questions. That they are some that are surprised about the questions is not that bad (I thought that, too - I only choose not to say anything about it, but from the perspective of readers these questions are somewhat strange).

    OotS has become a long narrative story. Sure there still some strips that could stand alone, but If you start reading random strips, that's not going to work well. And if you don't have that much time, go for a slower pace - you don't need to read the whole comic at once. But if you aren't up to date, I would give you the warning to dodge this subforum, or you will certainly spoil some of the later twists the comic performs. And if you forget something you can ask and even get answers to it. And I think that the Playground is one of the nicest forums I found on the Internet.
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2013-05-17 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Edited to add singature

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Wow, people are upset at me simply for the reason that I am way too busy to read the entire webcomic.
    I don't know if we're "upset", but it is kind of strange that you're trying to discuss the comic with us without actually reading the comic. Would you do that with a book or a movie? Did you pause Star Wars in the middle and go onto forums to ask why exactly Obi Wan seemed to withhold information about Vader from Luke? It doesn't make much sense to discuss fiction if you haven't read/watched said fiction.

    1.) Belkar is a valuable asset in the past and will prove himself during the thieves guild attack.
    Again, how was Haley supposed to know Belkar would "prove himself" later on? "Well, Belkar is more out of control than ever and just murdered the only person I know who could've directly helped us. Guess I should keep him around, though, just in case we run into my own guild which occupies a city I have no intention to visit."
    Quote Originally Posted by T-O-E View Post
    MAJOR SPOILERS. Seriously!
    The last panel will be...
    Spoiler
    Show
    Black. 'The End' in white text.

    Don't say I didn't warn you.
    I won a thread. Am I pathetic to list that in my signture? Yes. Of course I am.

    Awesome avatar is awesome. And made by yldenfrei.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Wow, people are upset at me simply for the reason that I am way too busy to read the entire webcomic. The fact that the titles are not intuitive does not help things. With this kind of attitude, no wonder you all do not get new blood every once in a while.
    First, why shouldn't people be upset? Do you think that nobody else here has anything better to do with their time than to explain the story to someone who didn't even bother to read it? Admittedly, I don't, or I wouldn't be posting this, but other people probably do, but still have taken the time to answer your questions because they're more softhearted than I am.

    Second, the reason that the titles of the individual installments of the comic aren't intuitive is because you have to, you know, actually read the comic in order to know what they're about.

    Third, people here, as a group, are about the nicest, best behaved posters on the internet. (Again, that doesn't apply to me--"Good is not nice" is a trope I'd say applies to me.} You think people here are giving you a hard time? Start posting on Languish (http://Languish.org) and see what kind of reception you get there.

    Seriously, start. Unlike this place, Languish could use the new blood. Just expect to get bloodied (virtually).

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Pilgrim's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellye View Post
    And I don't think that Roy would be greatly pissed by Belkar killing the Oracle. Pissed, yes, but not to the point of leaving Belkar to die (or killing him himself).
    As a matter of fact, you only need to advance to the next comic in order to find out how wrong you are about what would Roy do: 571
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2013-02-26 at 06:31 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Hiro Protagonest's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why does Haley want to kick Belkar off the Order?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnzrx View Post
    Wow, people are upset at me simply for the reason that I am way too busy to read the entire webcomic.
    ...

    When you read a book, but you only read part of it, do you read the pages in order, starting at page one, or just the first few of every chapter?
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2013-02-26 at 07:30 PM.

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