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    Default Durkon's Prophecies

    If Malack turns Durkon into a vampire and then Durkon returns to the Dwarven Homeland and destroy's it. He will have fulfilled both the prophecy of Odin's high priest: bringing great doom when he returns home; and that of the Oracle of Sunken Vally: returning home posthumously.

    But how likely is it that Rich would kill off Durkon?

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphdruid View Post
    But how likely is it that Rich would kill off Durkon?
    Pretty darn likely, I'd say.

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    But how likely is it that Rich would kill Durkon like this, here and now, before giving him much chance to grow and shine, taking his life, freedom and honour, destoying and desecrating all he was?

    Pretty darn likely, I'd say.
    The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Durkon needs character development. Turning a "very good" person with very strong principles, especially against vampires, into a vampire seems to be a pretty effective mean to drive it.
    It's actually a classic of the vampire genre that opens a whole lot of things to happen.

    Maybe Durkon dies now (for good and gets called back later), maybe he turns into a vampire, maybe he gets destroyed, maybe he finds redemption. In any case, I am pretty sure Durkon has opportunity to change.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Durkon needs character development. Turning a "very good" person with very strong principles, especially against vampires, into a vampire seems to be a pretty effective mean to drive it.
    It's actually a classic of the vampire genre that opens a whole lot of things to happen.

    Maybe Durkon dies now (for good and gets called back later), maybe he turns into a vampire, maybe he gets destroyed, maybe he finds redemption. In any case, I am pretty sure Durkon has opportunity to change.
    I suppose it depends on how vampires are run in D+D, and in OOTS in particular. In a lot of vampire stories, becoming a vampire isn't character growth, because the character is dead. The vampire is a different character who looks the same as the old one, and perhaps has some of their memories, under the control of someone else. It is character development of a rather forced and non-consensual sort, in the same was as casting a permanent Dominate Person-type spell on Haley and have her not care about treasure would be.

    But in response to the OP's point; this would indeed be a good way for Durkon to fulfil the two prophesies. The next question would be: would he be returning to the Dwarvern homelands as a member of the Order, or of the Linear Guild, or Team Evil, or as a lone avatar of doom? I suppose the answer depends on how much of the ‘real’ Durkon’s personality is left in the vamp Durkon, and how much control Malack (should he survive this arc, which I doubt) could exert on him.
    The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam79 View Post
    I suppose it depends on how vampires are run in D+D, and in OOTS in particular.
    We cannot know. D&D is very unspecific on what you are supposed to do with a character once the template is applied. Given that Rich tends to see those things from a general "What is an interesting story?" perspective, I think he's more going with the "World of Darkness" than with, uhh, let's say "Blade".

    In a lot of vampire stories, becoming a vampire isn't character growth, because the character is dead.
    There's an entire RPG world around the question "What happens if you become a Vampire". Some movies/books explore it, in others the vampire is just some evil thing that needs to get killed.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    We cannot know. D&D is very unspecific on what you are supposed to do with a character once the template is applied.
    I hesitate to point out anything related to *l*gnm*nt, especially *lw*ys *v*l, but perhaps I can summarize by saying that D&D tradition is opposed to the idea of a lot of kind-hearted vampires running around.

    But The Giant has also given what appears to me to be a strong clue as to how vampirism affects character in OOTS: "Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gamera View Post
    I hesitate to point out anything related to *l*gnm*nt, especially *lw*ys *v*l, but perhaps I can summarize by saying that D&D tradition is opposed to the idea of a lot of kind-hearted vampires running around.
    I think all Vampire Lore is either generally or very strictly against "Vampires being Nice". Either they get totally evil by the transformation or the get gradually evil and more and more de-humanized by the lifestyle that is forced upon them.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I think all Vampire Lore is either generally or very strictly against "Vampires being Nice". Either they get totally evil by the transformation or the get gradually evil and more and more de-humanized by the lifestyle that is forced upon them.
    They're perfectly allowed to be Nice, though it's likely they can't be Good. After all, Nice != Good.

    Anyway, Durkon has to die pretty soon because of his prophecy from the Orcale. I think we can assume that he can't return to the Dwarven Homelands unless he dies first. The Order seems to be pretty close to finding (and probably destroying) Girard Gate, so they will soon move to Kraagor&Serini Gate. The Gate seems to be located far north, and so are Dwarven Homelands. So I guess Durkon has to get over with his death preferably before they start for the last Gate.

    Returning as a vampire would be pretty neat. Otherwise the Order would just have to carry his body along, which is rather anticlimactic.
    Also, (if he survives the current fight) keeping the prophecy of the Oracle in mind, the Order could try to convince him to leave before they start for the Gate, in attempt to save his life. Which would be even more anticlimactic, and Durkon's sense of duty wouldn't allow it anyway.

    As to the other prophecy, it could also be fulfilled not by Durkon himself. After all, when the Order rushes to the last Gate, all sorts of villains might follow: Xykon, Redcloak, MitD, Linear Guild, Tarquin and IFFC. Any of those would bring death and destruction to the dwarves and Durkon would be indirectly responsible.

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by VanaGalen View Post
    They're perfectly allowed to be Nice, though it's likely they can't be Good. After all, Nice != Good.
    Of course.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gamera View Post
    But The Giant has also given what appears to me to be a strong clue as to how vampirism affects character in OOTS: "Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today."
    I remember a lot of discussion on that, and how 200 years of being a vampire and having bonuses to your three mental stats is important to how you are as a person. Knocking off the end three and taking away something you've been used to for 200 years could be enough to destroy who you are.

    There's not necessarily anything in there saying that it hits a reset button and/or that a vampire is a different person entirely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineh Daze View Post
    There's not necessarily anything in there saying that it hits a reset button and/or that a vampire is a different person entirely.
    Well, the vampire template turns you Evil straight away, right? Which is pretty close to reset for a Lawful Good Cleric with the Good domain.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanaGalen View Post
    Anyway, Durkon has to die pretty soon because of his prophecy from the Orcale.
    [Nitpick] There's no time limit on Durkon's prophesy, unlike Belkar's; he could survive the events of this story, on the condition that the party doesn't go back to Durkon's homeland during the quest. He could even live to a ripe old age and still fulfil the prophesy. Obviously, that's very unlikely.[/Nitpick]

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter
    There's an entire RPG world around the question "What happens if you become a Vampire". Some movies/books explore it, in others the vampire is just some evil thing that needs to get killed.
    Safe to say that RPG isn't the one OOTS is based on. In my (relatively limited and not that recent) experience of D+D, vampires are very much in the "evil thing that needs killing" category. Obviously, that tells us only a little about what our author might decide to do in his story. But the whole reason why this section is dramatic (at least to me) is the fear that first Belkar and now Durkon may go over to the Dark Side (Darker side, in Belkar's case). If being a vampire means only having to wear a sunhat and make certain dietary adjustments...well, that seems a bit lame to me.
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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    There was actually a 2ed Ravenloft supplement for making undead PCs.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Given that, as pointed out elsewhere, Durkon is supposed to bring "death and destruction" to the dwarven lands, and Nergal is the god of death and destruction, it'd be a fun twist on the expectations of the prophecy if Durkon gets vamped, converts to Nergalism, and when he returns to his homeland he just preaches for his new god, rather than actually killing anyone or destroying anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    There was actually a 2ed Ravenloft supplement for making undead PCs.
    There's also a Vampire PC class in 4E, in Player's Option: Heroes of Shadow. Its a bit of a glass cannon, since Vampire PCs have only 2 healing surges at the start of an encounter, but they can get more by bloodying and killing enemies.
    Poor Durkon! May your corpse be interred by the tombs of your pappy, grandpappy, great-grandpappy, etc. (Preferably with a wooden stake driven through your heart, your mouth filled with holy wafers and your lips sewn shut with silver thread. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    There was actually a 2ed Ravenloft supplement for making undead PCs.
    Interesting. In my memory, Ravenloft = place where you need to roll up three back-up characters. Was the idea of the Undead PCs to have an Evil party, or did these rules allow (for example) NG vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    Given that, as pointed out elsewhere, Durkon is supposed to bring "death and destruction" to the dwarven lands, and Nergal is the god of death and destruction, it'd be a fun twist on the expectations of the prophecy if Durkon gets vamped, converts to Nergalism, and when he returns to his homeland he just preaches for his new god, rather than actually killing anyone or destroying anything.
    LOVE this idea!
    The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by sam79 View Post
    Interesting. In my memory, Ravenloft = place where you need to roll up three back-up characters.
    I thought that was Dark Sun? Maybe it's both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I thought that was Dark Sun? Maybe it's both.
    Dark Sun was three back up characrers per session!
    The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Turning Durkon into a Vampire most likely won't make him evil immediately, if only because he would be under Malack's control - he's not making choices, so why would his alignment change? If Malack were to be killed, however, he's left to make his own choices. Even then it would depend on how he handles his affliction. If he became evil he would lose most of his priest class, and would be as good as dead plot-wise..

    Being killed by a fireball from V or whatever other intervention will still happen is more likely IMO, after which the Order would high-tail it to the Dwarven lands to get him raised and prepare the last gate. There's not much you can do against a lich without a functional cleric/healer, anyway.

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    Turning Durkon into a Vampire most likely won't make him evil immediately, if only because he would be under Malack's control - he's not making choices, so why would his alignment change?
    Thing is- some forms of magic change your alignment without you ever having made an "evil choice"

    A Helm of opposite alignment for example.

    Getting very unlucky on your Will save, when you're an afflicted lycanthrope, aware of it, and involuntarily change.

    And- being transformed into certain types of undead.

    Think of it as a personality rewrite, and a part of alignment determination, being personality, not just actions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam79 View Post
    Interesting. In my memory, Ravenloft = place where you need to roll up three back-up characters. Was the idea of the Undead PCs to have an Evil party, or did these rules allow (for example) NG vampires?
    Ravenloft strictly forbade evil PCs, and that rule didn't change for undead characters. Of course, undead characters were expected to have "get restored to the living" as an urgent priority.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Ravenloft strictly forbade evil PCs, and that rule didn't change for undead characters. Of course, undead characters were expected to have "get restored to the living" as an urgent priority.
    That sounds pretty interesting. I guess this was a way that people could continue to play their favourite characters even though they'd been vamp'ed, wight'ed or whatever?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Thing is- some forms of magic change your alignment without you ever having made an "evil choice"

    A Helm of opposite alignment for example.

    Getting very unlucky on your Will save, when you're an afflicted lycanthrope, aware of it, and involuntarily change.

    And- being transformed into certain types of undead.

    Think of it as a personality rewrite, and a part of alignment determination, being personality, not just actions.
    This was my understanding of D+D Vamperism, and why I don't think the argument that Durkon turning into a vampire is character development for him. He's not learning and developing and changing as a result of experience/contemplation; he's being re-wired by an Evil adversary.
    The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam79 View Post
    This was my understanding of D+D Vamperism, and why I don't think the argument that Durkon turning into a vampire is character development for him. He's not learning and developing and changing as a result of experience/contemplation; he's being re-wired by an Evil adversary.
    I guess the comic might not go as you expect.

    D&D-vampirism isn't defined. It's up to any DM. I very much doubt Rich goes all the way to make Durkon to become friends with a vampire, then get turned (if he does ;)) by that "friend" and then simply lets this stay at
    Durkon: "HOHOHO I am an Evil Vampire now! I'll suck you dry! MUHAHAHAH!"
    Last edited by Winter; 2013-03-03 at 12:38 PM.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    And there have been D&D vampires that come out of the transformation with a hefty chunk of their morality still there. I think Jander Sunstar was one.

    Nothing stopping Durkon coming out of it LN rather than LE, invoking the "unique or rare exceptions" clause of Always X alignment.
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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Do Vampires in D&D even need to feed on blood to survive? Or is it just something they want to do, and benefit from doing?
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    Daoist(Prc), Kinderhorror (MitP:8-0), Gribble(MitP: 11-1), Shardfiend(MitP:8-0), Sun Tyrant(MitP:6-0), Sunworshiper(MitP: 3-0),Spidaren (MitP: 7-0), Movie Themed Feats

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    Default Re: Durkon's Prophecies

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    And there have been D&D vampires that come out of the transformation with a hefty chunk of their morality still there. I think Jander Sunstar was one.

    Nothing stopping Durkon coming out of it LN rather than LE, invoking the "unique or rare exceptions" clause of Always X alignment.
    The point of turning any main character into a Vampire is to have him struggle with that condition. So whatever happens, Durkon will struggle with his new state (should he get it).
    I can very much imagine him to "not start out as LE", but I can also see him as becoming LE and doing all kinds of bad things (and losing his cleric-levels at that) and fighting his way back from that (something we call "redemption").

    Anyway, becoming a Vampire must be a major plot point or Rich would have gone for something else.
    Also note that Durkon is the one character who had no character development so far. If he gets it, there's not much time left (two gates one of them is very probably nearing its end) for that to happen. I doubt we're reading a comic where everyone gets character development (from the Order over Team Evil and the MitD) but one of the main PCs is left out. Does that sound likely? No!
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppatomus View Post
    Do Vampires in D&D even need to feed on blood to survive? Or is it just something they want to do, and benefit from doing?
    In Libris Mortis, they go immobilized eventually if they don't get it. And I think they go insane eventually if they don't use their energy drain, as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppatomus View Post
    Do Vampires in D&D even need to feed on blood to survive? Or is it just something they want to do, and benefit from doing?
    The SRD does not say anything about that. I guess it's up to any DM to decide this.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I guess the comic might not go as you expect.
    That's pretty much a given!

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    D&D-vampirism isn't defined. It's up to any DM. I very much doubt Rich goes all the way to make Durkon to become friends with a vampire (if he does), then get turned by that "friend" and then simply lets this stay at
    Durkon: "HOHOHO I am an Evil Vampire now! I'll suck you dry! MUHAHAHAH!"
    But it is defined to the extent that applying the vampire template makes a character Evil, and presumably being Evil Undead will make Durkon's continued career as a cleric of Thor...difficult. The author is free of course to ignore these rules and restrictions; its his world and his story. But I think the audience could legitimately cry foul in that case, especially given that we've recently(ish) had Redcloak give Tsukiko a lesson on the nature of the undead in OOTS.
    The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam79 View Post
    But it is defined to the extent that applying the vampire template makes a character Evil, and presumably being Evil Undead will make Durkon's continued career as a cleric of Thor...difficult.
    Yes, that... "difficulty" is probably what it's going to be all about...
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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