Acrobatics vs Athletics

[Mechanize]

I hate these skill checks. All athletic skills in real life, short of lifting heavy objects, require both strength and dexterity. When you jump you use str to jump and dex to land on your feet. When you swim you need str or endurance plus the dex based coordination. When you climb you require both str to pull yourself up and dex to not slip. To sprint you need str to move fast and dex to no trip over your own feet. The two go hand in hand.

If you were to redo D&D mechanics, how would you take care of these skills checks? Assuming you dislike how they are done in the first place... :P

[Madeiner]

I'd go with primary and secondary attributes.
Primary attribute works like normal.
Secondary attribute is only negative: if you have less than 10 on your secondary attribute, you take a penalty, but it doesn't give any bonus.
Or, you add only half of your secondary attribute to the check.

[Berenger]

I'd do it like HackMaster or The Dark Eye and use more than one ability where appropriate. New HackMaster uses the lowest relevant ability score, Old HackMaster uses the average of all relevant ability scores and The Dark Eye uses three dice per check, one against every relevant ability (some skills have one ability twice oder thrice when only one ability can be applied).

[Mechanize]

And that doesn't make things too confusing? multiple types of checks for scores that have 1 or 2 or 3 appropriate modifiers?

[jindra34]

And that doesn't make things too confusing? multiple types of checks for scores that have 1 or 2 or 3 appropriate modifiers?

If you are going to be that picky about realism and all, you are going to have to deal with a lot of confusing complexity in a system.

[Razanir]

I'd go with primary and secondary attributes.
Primary attribute works like normal.
Secondary attribute is only negative: if you have less than 10 on your secondary attribute, you take a penalty, but it doesn't give any bonus.
Or, you add only half of your secondary attribute to the check.

I might actually houserule that in.

On a side note, my campaign is slowly turning into its own system

[Quorothorn]

If you want to keep it simple, you can just use the "best of" approach: each character uses STR/DEX/whatever, whichever is the highest.

Madeiner's idea seems to have potential to me, as well, if you're willing for a bit more complication.

[Berenger]

The Dark Eye is not a exactly a very quick system.

For example: You have 9 skill points in Climb (Str/Dex/Con).

For a climbing check, you roll one d20 for Strenght, one for Dexterity and one for Constitution. You must roll under or equal to each ability score. If you roll over your score, you have to use skill points to compensate. For example, Strength 14, Roll 16 = use 2 skill points, Dexterity 11, Roll 9 = passed, Constitution 8, Roll 13 = use 5 skill points. You had to use 7 out of 9 skill points, so you succeeded. Without climbing skill, you would have failed with the strength check.

That's rather complicated when compared to 1d20+modifier, I know. But the system as a whole does have its merits. It's more complex and "lifelike" than D&D in my opinion. Among other things, those skill checks give you an idea what went wrong when you fail.

The necessary abilities can also be altered. Swimming 200 feet against a heavy river current isn't the same as having to tread water for 4 hours in a pond.

[Matticussama]

I commonly adjust it based upon the circumstances. Sometimes the check requires skill + Dex, sometimes skill + Str, sometimes skill + Con; it all depends upon the act in question. That isn't how it traditionally works in D&D, but it offers a bit more flexibility without completely overhauling the system.

[Jack of Spades]

For a system that's going for mechanical pseudo-realism at the level which DnD is, having climbing/swimming/running/etc be lumped into one category is a bit silly in the first place. So, if I were to devise a system, they'd be different skills.

But, here's an idea that I just came up with: what if any and all physical attribute penalties apply to all physical (STR/DEX/CON based) skill rolls? Then, if someone is extremely clumsy or has very little stamina, it will be reflected in the results of normally strength-based checks. It fits closely enough to life, and adds almost no extra clunkiness to the rules. You could probably do something similar with mental attributes, but it wouldn't make sense.

WoD has a pretty good solution for the problem you're talking about. Skills in WoD are completely different from attributes. When you make a skill roll, the GM calls for a [skill]+[attribute] roll, and the two scores make your dice pool. So a Dex+Firearms roll is shooting a gun, whereas cleaning the gun will be something like Wits+Firearms.

Deadlands Classic does something similar. Woo mentioned Deadlands!

[Mechanize]

WoD has a pretty good solution for the problem you're talking about. Skills in WoD are completely different from attributes. When you make a skill roll, the GM calls for a [skill]+[attribute] roll, and the two scores make your dice pool. So a Dex+Firearms roll is shooting a gun, whereas cleaning the gun will be something like Wits+Firearms.

This sounds pretty simple and realistic at the same time. A skills list with variable mod scores.

[Juhn]

WoD has its own issues, including not clearly delineating when to use one Attribute over another (e.g. when does one use Presence + Socialize vs Manipulation + Socialize) and the fact that it's entirely possible to have a character with, say, 4 Brawl but 0 Athletics. The core idea is fairly sound, though, yes.

[Rhynn]

When you swing a sword, you're using your strength but your hand-eye coordination (Dexterity) is what you actually hit with (given that it's impossible to penetrate iron or steel armor, and you go around it). In D&D, it's Str alone, unless it's Dex alone.

It's a simple game in many ways.

I'd do it like HackMaster or The Dark Eye and use more than one ability where appropriate. New HackMaster uses the lowest relevant ability score, Old HackMaster uses the average of all relevant ability scores and The Dark Eye uses three dice per check, one against every relevant ability (some skills have one ability twice oder thrice when only one ability can be applied).

HârnMaster (the one whose name HackMaster spoofs) averages three attributes (sometimes one twice plus one once) to get your base score in every skill. You get a score on the 1-100 range (although it can go higher), which is rolled against with d100 (and modifiers to the base value).

Much simpler than The Dark Eye. I dislike TDE's system because it's totally impossible for me (and I suspect for most other people) to determine the chance of success on a roll, because it's so complex. (I'm sure it plays well, but I find I like systems better when I can understand the odds.)

[Kurald Galain]

WoD has a pretty good solution for the problem you're talking about. Skills in WoD are completely different from attributes. When you make a skill roll, the GM calls for a [skill]+[attribute] roll, and the two scores make your dice pool. So a Dex+Firearms roll is shooting a gun, whereas cleaning the gun will be something like Wits+Firearms.

That's in theory. In practice, every skill has one attribute that it is clearly tied to, and it is used in combination with that attribute 95% of the time. Certain WW subsystems explicitly sort the skills by attribute, like D&D does.

I find that in practice, almost every skill roll has a clear primary attribute anyway. Interestingly, the last playtest version of 5E D&D that I've seen does separate attributes from skills.

[Rhynn]

Also, many, many systems decouple skills and attributes and just do "roll an appropriate attribute and an appropriate skill." Twilight 2013 springs to mind immediately, and Legend of Five Rings. In fact, D&D Next does this...

[Ashtagon]

When you swing a sword, you're using your strength but your hand-eye coordination (Dexterity) is what you actually hit with (given that it's impossible to penetrate iron or steel armor, and you go around it). In D&D, it's Str alone, unless it's Dex alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c
0:52

Want me to search for videos of melee weapons doing the same?

[The Random NPC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c
0:52

Want me to search for videos of melee weapons doing the same?

Yes, yes I do.

[Hylas]

Redo D&D mechanics? Then I wouldn't have checks for jumping. You'd have a fixed jump range based on your speed and strength, which can be increased with a feat that would give something like +5 speed, +5/10 Jump range, and some increase to swim speed. I'd probably get rid of the swim skill too and make it more of a fixed value.

[navar100]

If you are going to be that picky about realism and all, you are going to have to deal with a lot of confusing complexity in a system.

I object to my dog Going To Jail not only for not being read his rights but not even being charged with a crime! Who's the guy I'm bribing with $50 to get out anyway? I don't see any "no trespassing" sign between Marvin Gardens and Pacific Avenue. Three doubles gets me in but then one doubles gets me out? It's entrapment. No Justice! No Peace!

[Morty]

That's in theory. In practice, every skill has one attribute that it is clearly tied to, and it is used in combination with that attribute 95% of the time. Certain WW subsystems explicitly sort the skills by attribute, like D&D does.

I find that in practice, almost every skill roll has a clear primary attribute anyway. Interestingly, the last playtest version of 5E D&D that I've seen does separate attributes from skills.

It doesn't really match my experience. Obviously, social skills will be used with social attributes and so forth, but other than that the Storytellers are free to use whichever combinations they find appropriate for the situation.

[Kurald Galain]

It doesn't really match my experience. Obviously, social skills will be used with social attributes and so forth, but other than that the Storytellers are free to use whichever combinations they find appropriate for the situation.

I know they are free to do that, but it has been my experience that they don't actually do so in practice. YMVV on that, of course.

[Mechanize]

Redo D&D mechanics? Then I wouldn't have checks for jumping. You'd have a fixed jump range based on your speed and strength, which can be increased with a feat that would give something like +5 speed, +5/10 Jump range, and some increase to swim speed. I'd probably get rid of the swim skill too and make it more of a fixed value.

As much as I agree with this because I'm not big on dying or getting hosed for simple skill challenges, do you not think this method would be a little boring? Or do you propose this fix to physical skills only which most people can pull off consistently?

[Rhynn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c
0:52

Want me to search for videos of melee weapons doing the same?

Bows are bows (although, frankly, given that period accounts record crusader knights impervious to arrows in mail & quilt, I'm dubious about the accuracy of that test, how well the padding corresponds to the aketons etc. worn under harness, and so on). Swords, axes, etc. (weapons used with Strength in D&D) do not penetrate metal armor as a matter of course. Even lances may have been incapable of it, although this is less clear. And, of course, there's weapons like warhammers, pollaxes and pollhammers that had very specialized penetrating heads that may indeed have punched holes in armor.

The overwhelming rule, though, is you go around armor. Look at armored longsword fechtbuchen - how many techniques are there where you go through armor rather than around it? Look at Battle of Nations and how casually people can beat each other with heavy weapons when they're wearing just low-quality repro armor.

Kind of off-topic here, though. Any continuation should probably go in Real-World Weapons and Armor.

[Jack of Spades]

That's in theory. In practice, every skill has one attribute that it is clearly tied to, and it is used in combination with that attribute 95% of the time.

Depends on who's running the game. The social and mental attributes are a bit hard to differentiate between for some people, and so some GMs find combinations they like and stick with them whether or not they actually make sense.

The option is there, though. And it's easy. Which is important.

[Emmerask]

And that doesn't make things too confusing? multiple types of checks for scores that have 1 or 2 or 3 appropriate modifiers?

It actually works out quite good once you get the hang of it.

just instead of throwing one d20 3 times throw 3 d20 one time and use color coded once with the colors always in the same order, red first green second blue third attribute involved.

It only takes marginally longer then using one d20 really but makes the skills a bit more realistic by not being forced to one attribute.

Also d&d 3.5 has far too few skills anyway

[Raimun]

Meh, I'd just make everyone add both Str and Dex modifiers to their Athletics and Acrobatics checks. I might even let people add Con modifier too, since most of those things call for endurance and stamina too.

Four reasons:

1) Good "sports"-skills are hardly imbalanced. Or is any of them as valuable as Flight speed?
2) You can already do insane min/maxing with jumping... and flying is still better.
3) Even if they turned out to be imbalanced, I wouldn't care. Good thing if Fighters can get good things with their skill points.
4) After playing Uncharted and watching action movies, I've come to realize most D&D-games lack non-combat physical challenges, since GMs seem to know that at the most, only one person in the party can do any kind of action movie stunts.

Besides, jumping over chasms and hanging from cliffs is cool.

[Mechanize]

I've been mulling over the variable attribute system. Having a skill list, then plugging in an appropriate modifier for a situation. Now, because this is all subjective, it could leave players and DM's bickering over silly stuff, but for the most part, this is what I have been writing down... Let me know what you guys think. *some of the skill names are a little different, been playing around with those too*

Variable Attribute Skill Checks:

Some skills have different applications. For each application choose the Skill required to complete the task, and add the most appropriate Ability Modifier.

Examples:

Jumping as far or as high as you can, with all your might, would use the Athletics skill coupled with your Strength mod.

Jumping, and needing to land soundly on your feet would use Athletics coupled with your Dexterity mod.

Running up a wall, then jumping off the wall to grab a chandelier that is 10ft higher would use the Acrobatics skill coupled with your Strength mod or vice versa, Athletics coupled with Dexterity.

Running up a wall, grabbing a rope within reach, then using the rope to swing onto a far platform would use Acrobatics coupled with Dexterity. Very little strength is required here, but you need plenty of finesse to run up the wall, grab the rope, and land on the platform without losing balance.

Doing a jumping front flip over an enemies head would be Acrobatics coupled with Strength because though this is surely an acrobatic feat, strength is required to make such a leap.

Disarming a trap that is a "choose the correct lever or fail" type would use the Mechanical Skill coupled with Intelligence.

Disarming a trap that has very fine parts, and only the slightest touch can disarm the trap without triggering it, then you would use the Mechanical skill coupled with Dexterity.

Finding the correct plant in the forest would use the Nature skill coupled with Intelligence

Trying to calm or train an animal would use the Nature skill coupled with wisdom.

Assessing the extent of a visual open wound with an Anatomy check would be coupled with Intelligence.

Trying to figure out why a creature died mysteriously, with no evidence, would use Anatomy coupled with wisdom because it is going more on intuition and gut instinct. Or you could try Intuition coupled with Intelligence.

Removing an embedded arrowhead from a patient, without killing him in the process, would be Anatomy coupled with dexterity

These are just examples. Most of it is up to the GM's descretion and player creativity.

[valadil]

TBH, I'd keep it the way it is. All these options make the system more cumbersome. I don't want to dwell on my jump check for 5 minutes because I have to average 7 stats and see if I can use my Int (plus whatever other stats that entails) to make a physics check to see if I can find the optimal launch point for maximum distance. That sort of thing is awesome in a computer game, but in pen and paper I'd rather keep the arithmetic simple.

From a game design perspective, I think you end up needing to average the stats or use the same number of stats in all skills. If you decide that athletics uses strength, plus dexterity, plus constitution, but knowledge skills only use intelligence, those two skills will be on very different scales. To normalize them, they really should be averaged IMO.

[Firest Kathon]

I like the way that DSA does it. A skill check is comprised of three attribute checks, so if I want to jump across a pit I have to roll Agility/Strength/Courage.

Spoiler

Show

Full rules: The skill ranks I have in a skill are used to compensate missed agility rolls. For example, my abilities are
Agility: 13
Strength: 12
Courage: 10
and I have 5 ranks in jump.
For my jump check, I roll 10/13/12 (the target is to roll under the ability score). So I met Agility, and I missed Strength by 1 and Courage by 2. This means I deduct 3 from my ranks, leaving me with a result of 2. Any result of 0 or more is considered a success, additional difficulties may reduce the skill ranks available for compensation.

It sounds complex, but I usually roll three differently colored dice, so it doesn't take much more time than rolling just one dice.

[Rhynn]

I like the way that DSA does it. A skill check is comprised of three attribute checks, so if I want to jump across a pit I have to roll Agility/Strength/Courage.

*cough* Berenger already covered TDE/DSA...