What am I supposed to do?

[Eldan]

I think I found the problem with these ideas: You folks keep expecting logic to work. The puny earth-logic is no match for the power of the GM and his Sue. Obviously, Katana Guy can make a rock so big He can't lift it, and will then lift it anyway. As was demonstrated in Portal 2, some forms of stupidity are paradox-proof, and this GM sounds like a shining example of that.

Sure, sure. I'm just suggesting shenanigans so the OP has something to keep himself sane until the finale.

[Feddlefew]

Like Nylarthotep's human guise, then?

(Looking forward to this game's inevitable (and possibly thermite-powered) immolation and your MS3TK of it afterwards. This is going to be hilarious.)

I still say the cascading effects of the ClF3 would be be better. Maybe a tanker truck of it* with a small can of thermite perched on top. Make the DM think its full of petroleum or something.


*!!Fun!! fact: Apparently these existed during the fifties.

I think I found the problem with these ideas: You folks keep expecting logic to work. The puny earth-logic is no match for the power of the GM and his Sue. Obviously, Katana Guy can make a rock so big He can't lift it, and will then lift it anyway. As was demonstrated in Portal 2, some forms of stupidity are paradox-proof, and this GM sounds like a shining example of that.

I suppose this could be used as an example of the "not one of us" bit, as if he was one of us we'd be able to do those things too. Like that would work, but it would be funny.

To paraphrase a reported saying of GM Sue: "I'm so powerful an unstoppable force meets an immovable object every time I clap my hands!"

what

[Mr.D]

To paraphrase a reported saying of GM Sue: "I'm so powerful an unstoppable force meets an immovable object every time I clap my hands!"

Class. Utter class. Best being an arrogant super villain ever.

Also, is there even the chance that the Mighty Dice Gods would smile on you and Katana Guy would roll a never ending line of resplendent 1's while you and your comrades roll an unyielding barrage of Apocalyptic 20's? (I may have overstated that slightly) Do rolls matter that much or is Katanagod 2000 just so over powered he has +20 to everything anyway?

[Eldan]

Eh. This is the level of sueness where dice no longer matter. I mean, it takes the same amount of energy to say "He hits you" after you roll a 1 as it does to say that after you roll a 12.

Also, I suggest not just laughing out loud right away when the Suelord is introduced. First, keep your face perfectly straight and ask a question like "Okay, so, where's the real guy?"

Then laugh when you get the answer.

[Trekkin]

Class. Utter class. Best being an arrogant super villain ever.

Also, is there even the chance that the Mighty Dice Gods would smile on you and Katana Guy would roll a never ending line of resplendent 1's while you and your comrades roll an unyielding barrage of Apocalyptic 20's? (I may have overstated that slightly) Do rolls matter that much or is Katanagod 2000 just so over powered he has +20 to everything anyway?

1's and 20's are no longer automatic successes and failures in his system. A 1 counts as a roll of -10 and a 20 counts as a roll of 30, so a +11 bonus over the task DC guarantees success.

I can't even be sarcastic about this. A system where a sufficiently powerful character has no chance of failure is exactly what one would expect.

[JoshuaZ]

1's and 20's are no longer automatic successes and failures in his system. A 1 counts as a roll of -10 and a 20 counts as a roll of 30, so a +11 bonus over the task DC guarantees success.

I can't even be sarcastic about this. A system where a sufficiently powerful character has no chance of failure is exactly what one would expect.

That's not actually intrinsically unreasonable as a system rule. My preferred variant of that is that when you roll a 1 you subtract 10 and roll again, while for a 20 you add 10 and roll again, and keep doing so. This gives a nice distribution while still making it always possible to get really lucky or unlucky, it just becomes less and less likely with larger differences.

Note that in 3.5, deities in the official rules don't have 1s as automatic failure (but 20s on attack rolls are still auto hits on them).

This brings up a possible other thing you could do: see if you can get him to change the laws of mathematics. Fun things that might work include one-time pads and other encryption related things.

[Arbane]

This brings up a possible other thing you could do: see if you can get him to change the laws of mathematics. Fun things that might work include one-time pads and other encryption related things.

You may be on to something there. Once math stops working, so do character sheets.

[Gavinfoxx]

1's and 20's are no longer automatic successes and failures in his system. A 1 counts as a roll of -10 and a 20 counts as a roll of 30, so a +11 bonus over the task DC guarantees success.

I can't even be sarcastic about this. A system where a sufficiently powerful character has no chance of failure is exactly what one would expect.

That is a great rule that I absolutely love. That rule works fantastically well, as does solid rules that allow Take 10 in most circumstances (except combat, high winds, etc.). That rule is specifically suggested many times in this forum; a 1/20 chance of abject failure, or jumping to the moon, or whatever, is terrible in most D20 systems... it is far, far, far too high of a chance. And in 3.5e, 1's and 20's aren't generally automatic failures or successes anyway...

Most D20 homebrew fumble rules that add fumbles to the game (they were taken out for a reason!!) absolutely suck, especially from a realism standpoint.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You may be on to something there. Once math stops working, so do character sheets.

Muahahahahaha!

[Deffers]

Hrm. Now that I think about it, any plan to defeat Mary Sue increases its chances exponentially once we kick math out the window. At that point, you're playing in a consensus reality-- and the consensus is, Mary Sue sucks, down with Mary Sue, nobody's having fun.

Hell, it actually sounds like you could make a kind of badass story this way. The players are all, really, godlike beings with some definition of reality. One of the players enforced The Rules. The other players saw that The Rules were bad and sought to overthrow them. The first player, now the GM, tries to thwart them by making a seal-proof prison and stripping them and his own world of anything capable of unseating him from his power and his glory that he acquired by writing The Rules. However, his downfall is embedded in his tyranny, as he strips away layer after layer of his own Rules to try and break the will of the players. Thus the players begin to force the GM's hand, to erode the world such that their freedom is, eventually, ensured and All May Be Set Right Once More.

It'd certainly be a hell of a lot more engaging of a storyline then what the actual DM has cooked up.

Maybe everyone can come away having learned a lesson. And that lesson is Mary Sues suck.

[Sith_Happens]

Both strategies are theoretically workable, or would be in a universe with object permanence. The main problem I see with the first one is what I've come to think of as Xeno's paradox applied to definitions.

[snip]

Zeno's paradox occurs when you analyze instantaneous states without the benefit of calculus and come to the conclusion that basic kinematics are impossible. You're thinking of Schrödinger's cat.

...Which leads to your master stroke in mucking up reality:
1. Start openly thinking up a method to observe some aspect of Marty and exploit it before he has time to regain superposition.
2. The natural response to this from your GM, of course, will be to ban wavefunction collapse.
3. Quantum mechanics immediately begin to function on the macroscale, causing the universe to turn into a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.
4. ???
5. Profit.

[Deffers]

...Or we combine ALL these tricks, destroying math, causality, quantum space time, oxygen, and, hell, the dude's psychic, right? Wreak some havoc on psychic stuff too. Get him to stab himself in the foot, save yourself the trouble.

My conscience IS speaking up again, though, troublesome thing that it is. This kid's obviously got problems. Obviously he's not high-functioning-- at least, not well. We're looking at a dude who's basically wasting your damn time, every week, and unaware of it because he's caught up in the awesomeness of his katanas. And it's obvious he may think he's straight-up psychic, to boot.

Lovely though it may be to think that a complete and utter destruction of the plot will enlighten him, it... probably won't. So we're left trying to have fun at his expense, witout making him worse to be around. Ideally, but improbably, to teach him a general lesson on how NOT to interact with others (i.e. don't take advantage of the fact you're the only game in town and we can't set up our own campaigns).

At the very least, we don't want him to go Black Leaf on our asses, if you're catching my drift.

Guuuuh. When a DM brings his obvious psychological hangups THIS HARD into a game, it's hard not to cross the line between derailment and open psychological warfare. It's train-wreck levels of bad.

[Arbane]

We tried Code Geass sorts of tactical planning once, because he loves that show to a disturbing degree, to the point of pulling and citing specific maneuvers. It didn't work "because [we] aren't Lelouch". ...guess who willingly serves the DM Sue now out of awe at the Sue's tactical prowess?

This is supposed to be a 'universal system', right?

Ask to see Lelouch's character sheet.

[Ashtagon]

You may be on to something there. Once math stops working, so do character sheets.

I was under the impression they already had.

[Trekkin]

Zeno's paradox occurs when you analyze instantaneous states without the benefit of calculus and come to the conclusion that basic kinematics are impossible. You're thinking of Schrödinger's cat.

My apologies for the bad analogy; I was too hung up on the incremental nature of his state shifting (he gets a little more godlike every time we try to peg him as a mortal) to realize that, yes, Schrödinger's cat is perfect.

Or, in this case, Schrödinger's katana.

And the 1's-and-20's rule isn't in and of itself bad, I suppose. I'm just used to the school of thought that if there's no reasonable chance of success or failure, you don't roll and just assume. Then again, this does let us roll more dice; most of my problems with it stem from how it's used to justify really powerful NPCs doing whatever they want to us sans dice.

[Tanuki Tales]

A thought just came to me.

If the whole thing about this Metaplot is that Many Worlds rings true, then shouldn't there be an exact duplicate of the Ao-Sue out there who is the complete and utter opposite of Ao-Sue-Prime?

7,200 works were mentioned, but do they truly span the entire scope of the setting's greater Omniverse?

[randomhero00]

First ask him if his Sue is made of matter. I mean, please tell me he will at least admit to something that logical?

Then hopefully once he has confirmed his character is made of matter, and since he has already confirmed it is a "universal world/setting" ask him how Sue will deal with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mo..._and_abilities

Anti-Monitor has the power to travel to the beginning of time, destroy a near infinite amount of universes, absorb the energy from multiple universes...withstand a supernova.... warp reality.... I'm curious to see how he'll explain what happens when one reality warper meets another :P

I mean, you really can't come up with a more powerful character than AM unless you just go, well blah blah infinity +1!

PS another funny thing you might do is write a short story about another Sue that can mirror all powers and abilities he is faced with. Only needs to be a couple paragraphs. And doesn't need to be good writing.

Then under traits list immunities (all) and has undying devotion for X (X being your character). As well as telepathic communications constant with X.

Pop, up shows your very own Mary Sue minion. If he argues it doesn't count because its fictional, then say, but so is star wars. If he argues well star wars is published and a movie, then say, well your game isn't published either, yet by your own rules your character exists....

Basically he can't have a Sue without you having one by his own rules.

[Tanuki Tales]

First ask him if his Sue is made of matter. I mean, please tell me he will at least admit to something that logical?

Then hopefully once he has confirmed his character is made of matter, and since he has already confirmed it is a "universal world/setting" ask him how Sue will deal with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mo..._and_abilities

Anti-Monitor has the power to travel to the beginning of time, destroy a near infinite amount of universes, absorb the energy from multiple universes...withstand a supernova.... warp reality.... I'm curious to see how he'll explain what happens when one reality warper meets another :P

I mean, you really can't come up with a more powerful character than AM unless you just go, well blah blah infinity +1!

In Universe there are a handful of characters more powerful than the Crisis of Infinite Earths Anti-Monitor.

Mandrak, Cosmic Armor Superman, The Great Dark Beast, YHWH, God-Thing, Death, possibly Lucifer or the Zrfffians...

Edit: I mean, the Spectre channeling the power of the assembled remaining mystics and such was enough to stalemate him for a time.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In Universe there are a handful of characters more powerful than the Crisis of Infinite Earths Anti-Monitor.

Mandrak, Cosmic Armor Superman, The Great Dark Beast, YHWH, God-Thing, Death, possibly Lucifer or the Zrfffians...

Edit: I mean, the Spectre channeling the power of the assembled remaining mystics and such was enough to stalemate him for a time.

I don't know that you can count Vertigo entities, though. If we are, then sure, Lucifer is "save for his creator, perhaps the most powerful there is." But...

[Tanuki Tales]

I don't know that you can count Vertigo entities, though. If we are, then sure, Lucifer is "save for his creator, perhaps the most powerful there is." But...

Pre-Reboot we had Daniel showing up in both JLA under Grant Morrison and during Day of Vengeance. Destiny played a major part in the Brave and the Bold when his book was stolen and Supergirl, Hal Jordan, Lobo, Adam Strange and the Challengers of the Unknown had to retrieve it. Swamp Thing has always faded in and out of main DC in all his practically omnipotent glory, especially with Batman: The Widening Gyre and Brightest Day.

But the cream of the crop is Death showing up to tell Lex Luthor that not only is she the Death, but that Blackest Night had nothing to do with her, thus cementing that Nekron is just another lesser entity. All of this in Action Comics no less.


So while Vertigo is supposed to be separate continuity, there's enough bleed over to main DC to use them in lines of discussion like this.

[Feddlefew]

I propose having a protomultivers and eldrich abomination attempt a hostile take over, of one of the worlds. Preferably one that does not run a D20 game. As its appendages slowly push its way through the world-plane, they warp it into something both alien, yet stable and comfortably habitable for your characters. I think a no-portal rule for that universe would help prevent any invasions, and instead you could use a series of passages between different world-spheres, fluffed as you see appropriate.

There happens to be one of these tunnels attached to the world your characters are in now, accessed through a certain coffee shop....

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pre-Reboot we had Daniel showing up in both JLA under Grant Morrison and during Day of Vengeance. Destiny played a major part in the Brave and the Bold when his book was stolen and Supergirl, Hal Jordan, Lobo, Adam Strange and the Challengers of the Unknown had to retrieve it. Swamp Thing has always faded in and out of main DC in all his practically omnipotent glory, especially with Batman: The Widening Gyre and Brightest Day.

But the cream of the crop is Death showing up to tell Lex Luthor that not only is she the Death, but that Blackest Night had nothing to do with her, thus cementing that Nekron is just another lesser entity. All of this in Action Comics no less.


So while Vertigo is supposed to be separate continuity, there's enough bleed over to main DC to use them in lines of discussion like this.

Touche. white text is white

[Trekkin]

Basically he can't have a Sue without you having one by his own rules.

Unfortunately, he can. I should have mentioned this earlier, but after I suggested WH40K, he's placed an absolute ban on player-suggested settings unless it's one we've written ourselves AND we let him "revise" it and "fit it into the timeline". In effect, all we can do is hand him more ammo.

And unfortunately he's been very tight-lipped and vague about the precise conditions under which one becomes Sue-like; there's some indication that it happens exclusively by his in-character whim, now.

I'm pretty sure the Marvel and DC universes are both banned, though.

[Tanuki Tales]

I hadn't realized Anti-Monitor was a comics character; it explains his being mentioned on the Sue's list of loyal allies, now...

Ok. This is where I'm drawing the line.


You seriously need to, as a group, confront him and tell him that:

• His "magnum opus" is something expected from a tween to write on Fanfiction.net.
• That no one meaningful will ever purchase his "grand masterpiece", let alone want to play it if they could ever get it for free.
• That he needs to grow the hell up and get back into the real world.

Don't toy around with him, don't be passive aggressive, don't try to one up him and don't try to laugh him away.

This guy, from everything I've read up to now, needs a bullet piercing slap from Madame Reality. Get his family and other friends involved if you can and get this pompous man-child to act his age and his species.

[Deffers]

Agh, what... the Anti-Monitor? What? Aughhhh. Agh.

I'm choking on the fail here.

Next thing you know he's going to say he reformed the Allied Mastercomputer from I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream because he wanted a swanky bachelor pad.

I'm starting to think maybe this dude needs HELP. Like, serious, psychological, I'm-not-enabling-your-silly-ass-power-fantasies-any-longer help.

It's like... from what I've seen, you won't be able to beat him. The only way to beat him is upsetting him or laughing him off. At that point, you may as well just say... no. I mean, I know you want to write your own counter-novelization, and all of that's important. But, it's like... the stupid is quickly outpacing the funny here now. I don't think if you play this out to its conclusion, that there might be even a SHRED of humor left. I don't... I just don't know.

[Arbane]

Agh, what... the Anti-Monitor? What? Aughhhh. Agh.

It looks like the bit that was a reply to has been edited out.

OH GOD THE RETCONS ARE AFFECTING REAL LIFE NOW.

If so, wow, this brings a whole new meaning to the phrase Black Hole Sue. (Warning, TVTropes link. Click only if you have nothing to do for a few hours.)

It's like... from what I've seen, you won't be able to beat him. The only way to beat him is upsetting him or laughing him off. At that point, you may as well just say... no. I mean, I know you want to write your own counter-novelization, and all of that's important. But, it's like... the stupid is quickly outpacing the funny here now. I don't think if you play this out to its conclusion, that there might be even a SHRED of humor left. I don't... I just don't know.

I guess it's like playing Paranoia. Yes, failure is inevitable, but it's FUNNY if you have the right mindset.

But yeah, what Deffers said. You're not going to beat Sue in-game because Rule Zero is that Sue Always Wins. You're not going to beat the GM in-game because he's hilariously convinced (against all evidence) that this is TEH BESTEST EPIC GAEM EVAR!!@!1one!, so all you can do is go along with the ever-shifting railroad until you FINALLY explain to the GM that his game has achieved a state of Fractal Failure, where it fails at all possible levels to the point that every single part of it is just as bad as ALL of it.

But as long as you're extracting morbid laughs from it, I guess that's OK. I still think smacking the GM with a rolled-up newspaper every time he retcons things might be the best solution.

[Tanuki Tales]

I still think smacking the GM with a rolled-up newspaper every time he retcons things might be the best solution.

I think an intervention is more in order.

[Arbane]

I think an intervention is more in order.

That IS an intervention. And where logic and reason fail, the polled-up newspaper shall succeed.

[Tanuki Tales]

That IS an intervention. And where logic and reason fail, the polled-up newspaper shall succeed.

No, I mean a serious one. He may be harmless now, but as he's been described to us, the guy sounds like he has serious issues with his ego, social relations to others and connection to reality.

[Kalmageddon]

Unfortunately, he can. I should have mentioned this earlier, but after I suggested WH40K, he's placed an absolute ban on player-suggested settings unless it's one we've written ourselves AND we let him "revise" it and "fit it into the timeline". In effect, all we can do is hand him more ammo.

And unfortunately he's been very tight-lipped and vague about the precise conditions under which one becomes Sue-like; there's some indication that it happens exclusively by his in-character whim, now.

I'm pretty sure the Marvel and DC universes are both banned, though.

May I ask you a question?
So far, you've been searching for ways to break the game to humiliate this DM guy for ****s and giggles, am I correct?

Because otherwise, why wouldn't you and your friends just talk to him out of character? Tell him your problems and don't allow him to use a "because I say so" answer.
In fact, how can he even get away with saying things like "aluminum is there but doesn't work the way you think it does"? If you have a firm grasp on chemistry and physics why don't you just debate with him out of character? Insist and insist, demand that he gives detailed and scientifically plausible explanations.
I'd like to point out that this is a method that cannot fail, simply because the game grinds to a halt until you are satisfied with his answers (something only you can decide) or he admits his faults, at which point the choice is to continue playing and stop complaining or quit the game and be over with it.
One way or the other the situation is solved.

Otherwise if you are having fun in this campaing because of how horribile and pathetic the DM is but you are still going to try and "teach him a lesson", wouldn't that constitute biting the hand that feeds you, so to speak?

I've been in horribile campaigns before and when the game is so bad that it becomes amusing to make fun of that's when I quit. Because if I would stay then my mindset would be all wrong, I would just start enojoying the wrong things and I wouldn't be playing for the same reason as the DM, meaning having fun togheter, not making fun of someone.
This, in legal terms, breaks the contract, since to be valid a contract has to have both parties in agreement over what the objective of the contract is.

By the way don't get me wrong, this thread is very entrataining and I'd love to read more about it, I'm just curious about your motivation at this point, since this whole story is so surreal.