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    Default Goblins rule the world

    After recently watching all of the lord of the ring movies, as well as the hobbit I am feeling very interested in making a world were goblins actually won the war and the armies of evil crushed man and then throwing my players into this world as the survivors of the return of the king ( Or in my world Fall of the king). Does anyone have any suggestions about how I should go about this before I begin this massive task? Or even to links of people who have tried to take on a task similar to this? Thank you to everyone in advance for your help in this endeavor, and with luck when I am finished I will have a world that my players love and hate all at the same time.

    Also I have never read the hobbit but I am going to assume they end up killing the dragon and the necromancer, in my world they do not. The Ents are defeated at Inzenguard, and Helmsdeep is no more then a hole in the ground. Elves have all but left the lands, the few that had stayed are in hiding. Dwarves and hobbits (mix of gnomes and halflings alike) are the only real dominant races left. And humans have become completely whipped of the face of middle earth when Frodo lost to the will of the ring and instead of throwing it into the fires of Mt. Doom instead climbed the tower and presented the one ring to Sauron, thus granting him once more his full power.

    My first question is How should I make Sauron? They describe him as an illusionist, shapechanger, and even The Necromancer from the Hobbit (Wiki does have useful stuff in it who would have guessed). I was thinking for race perhaps a demigod or maybe even a Doppleganger Paragon.

    The Dark Lord Sauron
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Should you even stat him?

    Also, this may interest you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_%28role-playing_game%29"]
    Last edited by Durazno; 2013-03-25 at 01:52 AM.

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    I love Alt-History! Especially the fictional kind!

    Quote Originally Posted by dantiesilva View Post
    After recently watching all of the lord of the ring movies, as well as the hobbit I am feeling very interested in making a world were goblins actually won the war and the armies of evil crushed man and then throwing my players into this world as the survivors of the return of the king ( Or in my world Fall of the king). Does anyone have any suggestions about how I should go about this before I begin this massive task? Or even to links of people who have tried to take on a task similar to this? Thank you to everyone in advance for your help in this endeavor, and with luck when I am finished I will have a world that my players love and hate all at the same time.
    There was a game (LotR: Conquest) that allowed a rather grim Bad Ending if you followed the Evil Campaign. It's rather upsetting to watch, actually, if only because it doesn't make you feel good about being bad. I'd suggest either playing that, or watching the cutscenes.

    Also I have never read the hobbit but I am going to assume they end up killing the dragon and the necromancer, in my world they do not.
    Disclaimer: This next bit will sound mean. It isn't. I'm just explaining a few things I think you didn't catch with regards to the Tolkienverse as a whole. Skip past the "Train Metaphor" to where I'll offer more...constructive advice.

    You...haven't read the source material? Oooookay. Well. If the Quest of Erebor (The Hobbit + Necromancer business) ended in a TPK, then there isn't a Lord of the Rings. The Necromancer (read: The Dark Lord Sauron, The Abhorrent, Lord of Gifts and Lord of the Earth) has just killed Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel. Literally the most powerful beings in the world. He has made an alliance with Smaug, the Last of the Dragons, a race of beings created by his own Dark Master Morgoth (AKA: THE DEVIL'S DEVIL!). And he's also killed Bilbo Baggins, Thorin Oakenshield and Company, possibly Legolas and his father King Thranduil, along with thousands of Elves and Men of Lake-town.

    That means he has the One Ring. He is now a match for the Valar. He is now PUN-PUN. Everything in Middle Earth that has willpower or a soul is now his eternal mindslave. Everyone dies. Everyone everywhere forever. Bad Guys win. Rocks Fall. Everyone mindslaved.

    The Ents are defeated at Inzenguard Isengard, and Helmsdeep is no more then a hole in the ground. Elves have all but left the lands, the few that had stayed are in hiding. Dwarves and hobbits (mix of gnomes and halflings alike) are the only real dominant races left. And humans have become completely whipped of the face of middle earth when Frodo lost to the will of the ring and instead of throwing it into the fires of Mt. Doom instead climbed the tower and presented the one ring to Sauron, thus granting him once more his full power.
    Again, if the Hobbit ends differently, nothing here makes sense because Sauron won. Forever. Hell, there wouldn't be a Frodo to lose the Ring if the TPK occurred in the Hobbit.

    My first question is How should I make Sauron? They describe him as an illusionist, shapechanger, and even The Necromancer from the Hobbit (Wiki does have useful stuff in it who would have guessed). I was thinking for race perhaps a demigod or maybe even a Doppleganger Paragon.
    Sauron is unstattable. He cannot be given stats because then the Players will think they can kill him. They can't. It isn't possible. Sauron is the Divine Rank 30+ GOD with a single thing holding him back from roflstomping an entire world where the highest level character was Gandalf, someone usually statted around Level 6-10 at BEST.

    Imagine Sauron as a train and the players as small sheep (with a whooping cough and a case of leprosy) on the tracks. And the train is a Nuclear Missile someone lashed to the front of a bullet train someone else filled with napalm tanks and 1,000,000,000,000,000 copies of War and Peace someone filled with Explosive Runes.

    And the train has no breaks.

    You need 2 things, as I see it:
    1. Where is the moment of departure from the source material? This'll tell you what characters and events from the books still happened, and give you an idea about what most of the Main Characters will do if nothing gets directly in their way.
    2. What happened? What is the exact event that changed everything? Did Sauron get his Ring back when Frodo caved at the Crack of Doom? How? Did Gollum live beyond a certain point to do anything about that? Did Frodo and Sam try the Black Gate and got caught? Did Gollum win the Riddle Contest, keep his precious and doom Middle-Earth by proxy?


    Answer those first, and I swear the pieces will fall into place.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Yes I was reading the wiki and saw many of the stuff you have said thus far. Again I know it is bad of me to try and build something without knowing all the material ( read that he was the necromancer). So there is no need to really apologize for the things you said, its understandable. Anyways what I plan on changing were small yet big things all at the same time.

    1.Smaug does not die and thus forms the alliance with The Dark Lord Sauron.

    2. In the Necromancer buissness though he is held back, thanks to Smaug The Dark Lord Sauron does not lose his body and all against Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, but was still defeated to keep progress going onto the lord of the rings as he did not gain the ring but he instead got the services of Smaug which he himself rode once he gained enough power against the city of Gondor in the last battle WITH the ring wraiths to crush Aargon and Gandalf.

    3. Frodo falls to the rings power inside Mordor and instead of going to MT. Doom instead goes and brings the ring to the dark lord. Killing Sam and Gollun in the process.

    4. Isenguard never fell, though he and Wormtongue did take over the shire.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    At least read this and this. That should fill you in on what exactly Sauron is and where he stands in the big picture. It should also be mentioned that Gandalf, despite usually being statted as mid-level is probably better represented as some kind of celestial.

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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Quote Originally Posted by dantiesilva View Post
    Yes I was reading the wiki and saw many of the stuff you have said thus far. Again I know it is bad of me to try and build something without knowing all the material ( read that he was the necromancer). So there is no need to really apologize for the things you said, its understandable. Anyways what I plan on changing were small yet big things all at the same time.
    Don't sweat it. Let's get crackin'.

    1.Smaug does not die and thus forms the alliance with The Dark Lord Sauron.
    Gandalf's worst fear from the Hobbit. Smaug represents an army unto himself, so that'll have reprecussions long an short term. Short term is Erebor (Everything East of the Misty Mountains or Mirkwood) in flames and dead.

    2. In the Necromancer buissness though he is held back, thanks to Smaug The Dark Lord Sauron does not lose his body and all against Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, but was still defeated to keep progress going onto the lord of the rings as he did not gain the ring but he instead got the services of Smaug which he himself rode once he gained enough power against the city of Gondor in the last battle WITH the ring wraiths to crush Aargon and Gandalf.
    A few things to note: In Peter Jackson's movies Sauron lacks a physical form. In the books this is not so. He had a form while the Necromancer, as he did during the War of the Ring. When The White Council drove him from Mirkwood and destroyed Dol Guldur, he had already set himself up in Mordor, and only nine years after Dol Guldur openly declared hmself.

    He actually planned to lose that fight. So you really don't need to change much about that.

    3. Frodo falls to the rings power inside Mordor and instead of going to MT. Doom instead goes and brings the ring to the dark lord. Killing Sam and Gollun in the process.
    Under the Ring's influence in the book, Frodo was driven to declare the Ring his own and he the Lord of the Ring. If he did so in this timeline and managed also to escape Sam and Gollum, he would have tried to avoid Sauron at all cost. And the Nazgul would have had him in minutes.

    4. Isenguard never fell, though he and Wormtongue did take over the shire.
    If Isengard did not fall, then presumably the Ents did not join the war effort, or they were defeated somehow. Further, King Theoden and his army were either destroyed at Helm's Deep, or were merely smashed and then obliterated by another wave of Uruk-Hai from Isengard. Also, why did Isengard take over the Shire? In the books it was purely out of pettiness and spite for the Hobbits of the Fellowship. But since he was never defeated, Saruman has no reason logically to be the Shire's destroyer.

    Also, remember that there is still the War in the North. When Elrond congratulates the Fellowship at the end of ROTK, he talks about how an army of orcs as vast or more so than the one that attacked Minas Tirith swept through Erebor, and was only stopped at the Lonely Mountain (IIRC) by a combined army of Dwarves, Men and Elves. How poorly would they have fared if Smaug had served Sauron at this time?

    Quote Originally Posted by zabbarot View Post
    At least read this and this. That should fill you in on what exactly Sauron is and where he stands in the big picture. It should also be mentioned that Gandalf, despite usually being statted as mid-level is probably better represented as some kind of celestial.
    Personally I always thought he had Bard levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjadeadbeard View Post
    Personally I always thought he had Bard levels.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    I think that the train comparison might be overselling Sauron just a tad, to be honest. You'll probably be safe not statting him because he ought to be out of the reach of any player characters, but he's probably not divine rank 30+. Rather than sickly sheep, I'd cast our heroes as, say... a Toyota Prius on the tracks.

    I'm not sure where I'd place him, personally. Maybe divine rank ~10 or so, in addition to character levels far beyond anyone else in the setting?

    He's not invincible, after all - he can be impeded, inconvenienced and threatened by things in Middle Earth, such as lucky crits from legendary heroes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durazno View Post
    I think that the train comparison might be overselling Sauron just a tad, to be honest. You'll probably be safe not statting him because he ought to be out of the reach of any player characters, but he's probably not divine rank 30+. Rather than sickly sheep, I'd cast our heroes as, say... a Toyota Prius on the tracks.

    I'm not sure where I'd place him, personally. Maybe divine rank ~10 or so, in addition to character levels far beyond anyone else in the setting?

    He's not invincible, after all - he can be impeded, inconvenienced and threatened by things in Middle Earth, such as lucky crits from legendary heroes.
    Regardless, LotR was never easily comparable to D&D. In LotR you can still be a God and can lose a fight to a midget with a jewelry fetish.

    Sauron has only ever been beaten back by Deities or by losing his Ring. He basically had to leg it away from the Valar at the end of the First Age. It took the Hand of Eru Himself to destroy Sauron's fair form on Numenor, and Isildur (depending on how you read it) either merely looted his corpse for the Ring after he was temporarily incorporealized by a combination of Legendary Hero and Demigod tag-teaming him, or Isildur had a lucky, lucky crit and the die kept exploding. Had Sauron not invested so much of his own power into the Ring... it wouldn't have been as useful to him, but then he wouldn't have lost his physical form when his finger got cut.

    He's basically an Epic-Level Lich with levels in Sorcerer, Cleric and Artificer, some sort of feat(chain) that let him use Charisma for all needs, crafting beyond +60 and enough Divine Ranks to where it doesn't matter. His servants (The Mouth and the Witch-King) were powerful enough to kill the highest level Good character there was left (the former was the most powerful Sorcerer in Sauron's employ and his 2nd in command, the latter also had Divine Ranks granted by his master)!

    Sauron is a Roflstomp-Train without any breaks.
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    @zabbarot I have read the two towers (before the moive came out) as well as some of The Silmarillion (very tough read for me personally) but thank you for the links, they will provide much help later on for quick easy access to finding things.

    @Ninjadeadbeard

    "Gandalf's worst fear from the Hobbit. Smaug represents an army unto himself, so that'll have reprecussions long an short term. Short term is Erebor (Everything East of the Misty Mountains or Mirkwood) in flames and dead."


    That was my main reasoning behind keeping Smaug alive, well that and half dragons being alive. ( That should be an interesting one mind you). The way I saw it was to make sure there was no way for middle earth to win against him. Instead of being cocky and underestimating his opponents (The Valar mostly, though as they themselves are gods 2 are greater then 1) he waited and kept his powers hidden until he could make sure Smaug would live, ( Perhaps making him his familiar or something to spare his life.) however he could not go far from the Dark lords presence as the magic keeping him alive would get weaker until all races were under the rule of the Dark lord.

    "A few things to note: In Peter Jackson's movies Sauron lacks a physical form. In the books this is not so. He had a form while the Necromancer, as he did during the War of the Ring. When The White Council drove him from Mirkwood and destroyed Dol Guldur, he had already set himself up in Mordor, and only nine years after Dol Guldur openly declared himself.

    He actually planned to lose that fight. So you really don't need to change much about that."


    I was aware of that from what I have researched (the having an actual body part), and if he planned to lose the fight (odd but ok) then that can stay the same, perhaps he used it in this time line to distract them from killing Smaug?

    3. As you put it the Nazgul would have captured him so no real need to go beyond that.

    4. Never looked at it that way...Ents not joining the war could do it, or they could have joined to late....King Theoden fell at the battle of Helm's deep leaving Aargon in charge of both Rohan and Gondor for that little change, ( making it seem like he was more then just a man like his farther was believed to be). As for Saruman taking over and destroying the Shire, he knew Gandulf held a kindness for the hobbits and so to tr to lure him into a trap he attacked the Shire.

    As for the war in the North...I know nothing of it besides what I saw from the game preview so I bow to those wiser then I in this matter.

    As For bard levels.....I have seen many things for his build, bard was not one of them....Perhaps 20Artifficat/20 Outsider HD Make him gestalt to show how much more powerful he is then others. Even Cleric taking the right domains would fit better in my eyes then bard.

    @Everyone

    For a base race I was thinking a male Erinyes, would fit the backstory a lot as they are supposed to be fallen angels. Have the Belrog's be Balors. And have the ring wraiths be Evolved Wraiths of sorts, with the Witch king being even above that. As someone has said Divine ranks perhaps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dantiesilva View Post
    As For bard levels.....I have seen many things for his build, bard was not one of them....Perhaps 20Artifficat/20 Outsider HD Make him gestalt to show how much more powerful he is then others. Even Cleric taking the right domains would fit better in my eyes then bard.
    That was more or less a joke, considering how important words are to Tolkien and his universe. In fact he only wrote the books originally so that the languages he invented in his spare time would have a world to play around in. So Bard or Truenamer would actually be a good class (flavor-wise only!!!) for most of Middle-Earth.

    Again though, it was kind of a joke. Kind of. The problem is that...well, Lord of the Rings is too low level for D&D. If it ran on E6 rules (PC classes just stop at lvl 6), then logically a Wizard like Gandalf or Saruman could cast Flight. As it stands, if you just cut Fly from the spell lists...it almost works out. But still, Gandalf is probably either a lvl6 Wizard, or Bard given some of his talents for illusion. He might be considered an Aasimar or an Angel with a houseruled permanent Alter-Self.


    For a base race I was thinking a male Erinyes, would fit the backstory a lot as they are supposed to be fallen angels. Have the Belrog's be Balors. And have the ring wraiths be Evolved Wraiths of sorts, with the Witch king being even above that. As someone has said Divine ranks perhaps.
    Again. Do not stat Sauron. It will never end well for you. Campaign derailment everywhere as soon as a player figures out some cheap method to kill him in one hit.

    Balors were originally called Balrogs IIRC in the original Monster Manuals, but the Tolkien Estate was not amused. Evolved Wraith looks alright at a glance. Not sure what to do about ole Angmar, but he's definitely got DR15/Woman.
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    I don't understand why it is a foregone conclusion that Smaug would be tamed or working with Sauron. From everything I've ever read he would have no interest in that. He only ever seemed to create war when he wanted something specific (treasure) or when provoked. Otherwise he would lay on his already massive pile. I don't see how that would change unless Sauron would purposely go and try to tame him. Even then, Smaug would fight back, and without the knowledge of his defective scale the goblins in the dark lord's army would be destroyed. It would be a stalemate even assuming Sauron himself (armed with his one right) decided to go personally try and fight the dragon. Neither would be able to destroy the other. Sauran had magics and an army but the dragon could fly and was particular strong and clever. If threatened he probably could figure out how to disarm the dark lord of his ring and then know where to destroy it - I'd like to see the puny nazguls try to stop him when that happened. I don't think Smaug would necessarily try to do that, but I think it is a real possibility if provoked and I don't think either benefits from provoking the other. At least before everyone else is gone.

    As far as the ents, what would happen if they hadn't gotten involved, I'm not sure where things go off the track but it was due to two hobbits that they got involved in the first place. If they just left things be then they could still be a minor source of good left in the dark lord conquered world. I think that there probably needs to be someone left fighting the good fight, or at least resisting somehow, why not trees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tovec View Post
    I don't understand why it is a foregone conclusion that Smaug would be tamed or working with Sauron.
    Beyond the fact that Sauron's practically his Uncle (was present, if not directly involved with the creation of Smaug's entire race) and would thus hold some amount of influence over the old wyrm, going by the usual way things like this are handled in LotR:

    Gondor: Oh? Your Great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great Grand Uncle was the King once upon a time? Well, here's absolute power. Don't go wasting it all at once.

    Sauron could also have merely Mastered Smaug. Pure willpower, that Sauron. Magically force Smaug to serve him willingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjadeadbeard View Post
    That was more or less a joke, considering how important words are to Tolkien and his universe. In fact he only wrote the books originally so that the languages he invented in his spare time would have a world to play around in. So Bard or Truenamer would actually be a good class (flavor-wise only!!!) for most of Middle-Earth.

    Again though, it was kind of a joke. Kind of. The problem is that...well, Lord of the Rings is too low level for D&D. If it ran on E6 rules (PC classes just stop at lvl 6), then logically a Wizard like Gandalf or Saruman could cast Flight. As it stands, if you just cut Fly from the spell lists...it almost works out. But still, Gandalf is probably either a lvl6 Wizard, or Bard given some of his talents for illusion. He might be considered an Aasimar or an Angel with a houseruled permanent Alter-Self.

    Again. Do not stat Sauron. It will never end well for you. Campaign derailment everywhere as soon as a player figures out some cheap method to kill him in one hit.

    Balors were originally called Balrogs IIRC in the original Monster Manuals, but the Tolkien Estate was not amused. Evolved Wraith looks alright at a glance. Not sure what to do about ole Angmar, but he's definitely got DR15/Woman.

    I was actually think perhaps crusader levels on him. White raven to be precise because from what I have read he was great at army building, but in a straight up fight he almost always lost ( Then again when he did fight he was almost always fighting god himself or those sent by him).

    As far as Gandalf is concerned in almost all my research for my idea I have found that most people just throw half celestial onto him. Though looking at it I see him as more of a Intelligence based caster and well a +2 vs the +4 the other stats get just dose not seem right. I could always switch them around.

    As for stating him, I only am trying to get a rough build for him at the moment to give myself a guideline to work with, as well as for others in the future to look at for ideas. When push comes to shove and they do go to kill him any cheap way will be pushed aside saying it did not get through his divine ranks, most of the players I play with would accept that as long as they heard dice rolling or such on my side of the table.

    About the Balrogs I read about that last night when trying to learn more about them. And found a few things that contradicted each other, for example armies of Balrog even though their were only 7. So does that mean their were half Balrogs around? Agreed on ole Angmar its sad but true.

    I was also planing on either eliminating the Wizard class or dumbing down its spell list to make it fit in the world. After all most of the magic was very simple stuff ( Gandulf creating a light from his staff= flare spell against enemies, or light in normal situations.)

    @Tovec As I have stated I have not read any of the books, and this is purely my idea of how the worst fears of most of middle earth could have come true. It is not because he all the arguments back and forth on the web, and I would like to try and keep as much as possible of those arguments oout of this thread. This is here to help myself and other DMs use a world in which LotR and D&D 3.5 work decent enough together to keep everyone happy. I am sorry if this comes of rude, but please do not start arguments from other threads here. There is no need for them.

    As for the Ents and being good left in the world, I planned on there being small pockets of good left, after all the dwarves for the most part to my understanding kept to themselves and only helped a little during the war of the ring. Meaning some people cold have ran to them or to the Ents for shelter.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    If I may make a suggestion?


    Middle-Earth at the time of LotR is a world where the magic is on life-support. The time of the elves and ents, goblins and dragons has ended, and they are fading from the land. The only thing maintaining the very last breath of the old times are the Rings themselves, for this was the purpose the elves intended for them.

    I would recommend that you base your campaign in Beleriand instead. (It's where 90% of the Silmarillion takes place, and it gets destroyed in the last battle with Morgoth.)

    There's a lot more room for D&D-type campaigns there. For instance, in the tale of Beren and Luthien, just two people (and a dog) manage to beat Sauron in personal combat, infiltrate Angband (literally "iron hell") and most of all steal one of the gems from Morgoth's crown... While he is wearing it.


    I suggest looking into the Fall of Gondolin. An adventure set during the battle would be an epic one, if unsuited for a lasting campaign.

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    @Geordnet Thank you for the suggestions. And looking at a map image I must agree it dose look larger. But would not in essence by Saron winning be able to gather enough power with Smaug and the others to free Morgoth from the void and return magic to the world?
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjadeadbeard View Post
    Under the Ring's influence in the book, Frodo was driven to declare the Ring his own and he the Lord of the Ring. If he did so in this timeline and managed also to escape Sam and Gollum, he would have tried to avoid Sauron at all cost. And the Nazgul would have had him in minutes.
    If FRodo claimed the ring, the Nazgul would serve him rather than Sauron. They serve the ring claimer, not the ring owner or previous ring owner.
    Gollum never claimed the ring just owned it.

    So Frodo would be almost as powerful as Sauron, but has ringwraith minions versus Sauron (ringless). It would be about a even match.

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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Starbuck makes a very compelling case the ringwratihs serve the ring not anyone else. So in a way frodo would have control over all but perhaps the witch king who has a strong will then the others.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Quote Originally Posted by dantiesilva View Post
    @Geordnet Thank you for the suggestions. And looking at a map image I must agree it dose look larger. But would not in essence by Saron winning be able to gather enough power with Smaug and the others to free Morgoth from the void and return magic to the world?
    No. Sauron wasn't ever even remotely that powerful.

    In fact, by Beleriand terms he wasn't anything special. It's just that he's the most powerful being left in Middle-Earth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    If FRodo claimed the ring, the Nazgul would serve him rather than Sauron. They serve the ring claimer, not the ring owner or previous ring owner.
    Gollum never claimed the ring just owned it.

    So Frodo would be almost as powerful as Sauron, but has ringwraith minions versus Sauron (ringless). It would be about a even match.
    Yeah, like Frodo has the willpower to master the Ring in an instant? The Numenorians themselves couldn't take the Ring from Sauron while he was alive, so why do you think a simple Hobbit stands a chance of refusing him?


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by dantiesilva View Post
    Starbuck makes a very compelling case the ringwratihs serve the ring not anyone else. So in a way frodo would have control over all but perhaps the witch king who has a strong will then the others.
    The ringwraiths have no will. They serve the rings which enslaved them, and Sauron's got those. The One would only control the Nazgul indirectly, though the Nine; but that would require conquering the will of the bearer of the Nine (aka Sauron).


    I believe Tolkien's response to what would have happened if Gollum hadn't taken the ring at the Crack of Doom went something like this:
    "The Nazgul would arrive, and call Frodo 'Lord', and lure him into coming into Barad-Dr. In the presence of Sauron himself, Frodo wouldn't stand a chance."
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    Thumbs down Re: Goblins rule the world

    From what I have read through research Sauron was indeed that powerful, his downfall was he put all of his power into the ring. Making him extremely weak without it. He was one of the last Valar to switch sides in the song and was a master smith. Did he rely on his words to win most battles? Yes, but were mere humans alone able to defeat him? From what I have read no. And it took God (do not remember his name) directly intervening to stop him from conquering all of The Numenorians, at least from what I have read. So was he that powerful...By himself without the ring no. With the ring Smaug, Sauromon, The witch king, and the guy from the North.

    As to Frodo mastering the ring in an instant...he basically mastered the ring as did Bilbo for all that time they had it. It was not until that Frodo got extremely close to the black gates, and Mordor that he began to scum to its power. Bilbo had it for years and not once did it take control of him until when he had to leave for Rivendale and Gandalf asked him to leave it for Frodo. So willpower they had.

    And if the ringwraiths "serve the rings which enslaved them" then they would serve Frodo in that situation as Frodo held the ring that enslaved them. There rings made them fall victim to his ring and its power by corrupting them slowly until they were what he needed them to be. It was THE ring that thus by your argument controlled them not Sauron and so all Frodo had to do was master the ring and they were his to command as he already had the ring. Also why would Frodo listen to them knowing that they serve Sauron...He would make them prove their loyalty first meaning he would either conqure the ring or destroy it.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    There's a FAQ for all of this, that would be very good for you to read, but I don't remember the URL. One of the things it clarifies is that even without the Ring, Sauron wasn't significantly less powerful than before he made it; as long as the Ring isn't destroyed, of course.


    So I'm going to elaborate on a few things now; spoiler'd because it's somewhat off-topic:
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    First, Sauron wasn't on the level of the Valar. You're thinking of Melkor, aka Morgoth. Sauron was a fallen Maiar, which is the kind of being Gandalf is. As for "mere humans" defeating him, ask Beren how he did it.

    Second, he didn't conquer the Numenorians... Quite the opposite, in fact. He got taken as a prisoner by them, but was able to trick their king into accepting him as an adviser. There he slowly corrupted the Numenorians, and convinced them that attacking the Valar was a good idea. Needless to say, it wasn't: Sauron barely escaped the sinking island himself. (And he had the Ring with him then.)

    Third, you seem to misunderstand how the Ring's corruption works. The stronger one's will is, the harder it is to resist the Ring. The biggest reason Bilbo and Frodo managed to last so long is because they did not attempt to "master" the Ring in any way whatsoever.

    Fourth, I should clarify: the Nazgl serve the Nine, and Sauron has the Nine. Tolkien himself said that before the Ringwraiths would listen to Frodo, he'd have to break Sauron's will.

    Finally, I'm paraphrasing from Tolkien here. The important bit is that absolutely no mortal would be able to withhold the One from its master in his presence.



    EDIT:
    Another possibility, if you are dead-set on a "bad guys win" result for Middle-Earth, is to have Sauroman capture the Ring. Then there's still a chance of good winning at some future date (as in, during your campaign).
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    @Geordnet From what I have read online he infused so much of his hate and anger into the ring that he was weaker without it.

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    the Numenorians came to his door step told him to surrender, he did so as it was all part of his plan and then corrupted them from within...As long as what I have read so far on the web is true I would call that defeating the enemy, as he did not even need to lift a blade against them to conquer them. And if not for the god in LotR directly intervening he would have had an army of ring wraiths. As he would have continued making the rings and well had an unstoppable army. When you can scare a god to destroy one of the most powerful races to make sure they do not fall to " Some weak guys" then you have officially conquered a race in my eyes.


    And I am very set on Sauron winning and getting the ring. Keep in mind Gandulf could survive, I never once said he did not, just that Aargon has fallen to him and that the ring is once more his. What would be the point of making a campaign were evil lost when evil already lost. Then Goblins would not have an empire and rule the world. After all the dwarves will still be alive deep underground, humans are not yet exticent. Then there are the hobbits who can try and fight for freedom in the shire. The elves could come back in force....There are a lot of things that could happen.

    Now If we could get back to subject please. Building Sauron. Dose anyone object to at the least Demigod, at most DR10 or him having white raven tactics (name changed of course)
    Last edited by dantiesilva; 2013-03-26 at 06:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Don't believe everything you read online...


    Anyways, those stats for Sauron are probably Okay. Not that it matters, though; the party's likely to be level 2-4 with no spellcasters.

    Pretty much the problem is that if Sauron got the Ring, all hope is lost for Middle-Earth. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel would all be dead or worse, enslaved through the Three. Hobbits couldn't stand up to even a few of Sauraman's thugs without the returning Frodo et co. to galvanize them, they wouldn't stand a chance against Mordor. The Elves cannot return, since they didn't belong in Middle-Earth to begin with. And though the Valar certainly could oust Sauron if they wanted to, the war would destroy Middle-Earth just as it did Beleriand.

    Yeah, the Fellowship was Middle-Earth's last hope... :\

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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    In a D&D world there is one thing I have learned, expect the unexpected. Level 10 1 hit ko a level 15 greater doppleganger with 10 levels of assassin on top of whoever he was impersonating at the time ( a level 15 Crusader) We were a spellthief, A wizard, and a cleric. So yea anything is possible when it comes to players. Kill enough goblins and orcs and stuff to gain levels. When strong enough trap and kill certain key individuals that will have an impact later on but not on the small terms so it goes unnoticed. There is always a way to win, its getting there that is the problem. And that is what will make this all the more interesting as they will have a restart button persay, but if they do not have someone to revive the dead then they have to make new characters until all survivors are dead.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Hm, well there's the problem, since the gap we're talking about is a lot bigger than that.

    The absolute highest your players could go without breaking the theme of Middle-Earth entirely is about level 5-6. Anything above would break the feel.

    For reference, this is about where the Fellowship was at:
    • Frodo, Merry, Pippin: Level 1 Aristocrats
    • Sam: Level 1 Commoner
    • Borimir, Legolas, Gimli: Level 3-4 Fighters (maybe Ranger for Legolas)
    • Aragorn: Level 4-5 {something between a Fighter, a Ranger, and a Paladin}
    • Gandalf: ECL 15-20 celestial being


    The only other beings likely to be greater than Level 5 in all of Middle-Earth are Elrond, Galadriel, and Sauroman. All three are likely to be ruthlessly hunted down and destroyed by Sauron. Or worse, enslaved through their rings... (Yes, Sauroman made a Ring for himself, or at least pretended that he did... It may have been a bluff, but he did know more about the Rings than anyone in Middle-Earth save Sauron himself.)


    OH, and by the way, I just realized something:

    Earlier you said that the White Counsil failed to destroy Dol Gildur, I presume since you wanted it in your campaign. If that's the reason, you don't have to change any events to have it: Dol Gildur had been rebuilt before the start of the War of the Ring. (The war that's being fought as Frodo treks to Mt. Doom.)
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    And thats when I go back up to the spot where I said that I would be cutting out spells from their lists to choose from.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    It isn't just about the spells. It's about how much power they had, period. (Edit: Although, frankly I don't see any spells that fit the theme...)

    Middle-earth isn't a place where anyone can really fight though a hundred Orcs and not die before killing twenty. It just doesn't work like that.

    So, you could base a campaign off of Middle-Earth like that, but don't expect to capture the feel of it.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Quote Originally Posted by dantiesilva View Post
    And thats when I go back up to the spot where I said that I would be cutting out spells from their lists to choose from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Geordnet View Post
    It isn't just about the spells. It's about how much power they had, period. (Edit: Although, frankly I don't see any spells that fit the theme...)
    There are no Primary Spellcasters in LotR. Bards, Paladins, Rangers and perhaps the Truenamer? Yes. Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers and Druids? Nope.

    "Wizard" in Middle Earth is just a fancy word for Bard. Hell, I think could replicate 90% of Gandalf's feats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zap Dynamic View Post
    Ninjadeadbeard just ninja'd my post. How apt.
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    That is why the name of this thread is Goblins rule the world, not another LotR game or such. I want elements of LotR, not the whole thing. So were as some information is useful, other bits are less so. Though taking out wizards and clerics does some optimal leaving only spontaneous casters like sorcerers and bards, and those that learn magic later on. I will thank you all for that advice.

    And yes cold make a very fine Gandalf as long as you throw some wisdom on him XD
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    Default Re: Goblins rule the world

    Half Balrog template for my game world
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